Troll Regeneration Thread

[Crawford Tillinghast]

Isn't troll regeneration when someone gets banned from The Big Purple and creates an account at TheRPGSite?

I think it is when someone posts, their posts come back covered in blood (red text), and they still aren't banned.

I've learned a few things over at The Big Purple:

* don't post, period.

You're starting to catch on!  

As far as the OP goes:  Traditional trolls are big and ugly.  Andersen added regeneration and stupidity.  Tolkien added susceptibility to sunlight.  Gloranthan trolls are closer to orcs:  Big, smart & crafty, and nocturnal.  Though walktapi are regenerative, and someone used the miniature for "Octatrolls" is his ancient D&D campaign.

[Christopher Brady]

If I remember my Norse mythology correctly (and I freely admit I may not), I believe that Trolls were a form of Giant or Giant-kin.  I think they were on the short end of the Giant spectrum, like being 9-10 feet tall, as opposed to 12-ish?

[Spinachcat]

Here's some basic info worth checking out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll

IIRC, troll regeneration is a Gygaxian invention.

[crkrueger]

If I remember my Norse mythology correctly (and I freely admit I may not), I believe that Trolls were a form of Giant or Giant-kin.  I think they were on the short end of the Giant spectrum, like being 9-10 feet tall, as opposed to 12-ish?

Basically D&D gets it's giant types from Norse Mythology.  There were Frost, Fire, Sea, Wind, Clay/Earth, and Mountain Giants at least, maybe more.  The Rune Thurs is in many of their names like Hrimthursar (rime giants, ice giants or frost giants).  All the giants generally are called Jotnar.  Thurs is the root of the term Troll.  So originally, Troll could have been a general term for giant and is used for all kinds of beings in the mythology.

Over time, Troll began to be more of an earth type giant, especially those with nature magic powers.  This probably has to do with Christianization as the Pagans were slowly demonized.

So eventually, yeah, Trolls became a form of lesser giant, but earlier, the term was all over the place.

[crkrueger]

Here's some basic info worth checking out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll

IIRC, troll regeneration is a Gygaxian invention.

Well, Poul Anderson invention, like mentioned above.

[Ashakyre]

Well, this thread went sideways fast.

Or did it?

[Christopher Brady]

Basically D&D gets it's giant types from Norse Mythology.  There were Frost, Fire, Sea, Wind, Clay/Earth, and Mountain Giants at least, maybe more.  The Rune Thurs is in many of their names like Hrimthursar (rime giants, ice giants or frost giants).  All the giants generally are called Jotnar.  Thurs is the root of the term Troll.  So originally, Troll could have been a general term for giant and is used for all kinds of beings in the mythology.

Over time, Troll began to be more of an earth type giant, especially those with nature magic powers.  This probably has to do with Christianization as the Pagans were slowly demonized.

So eventually, yeah, Trolls became a form of lesser giant, but earlier, the term was all over the place.

Ah, good to know.  My knowledge came from memory of some old Scandinavian poems and a retranslation of Beowulf, which may or may not have been accurate, because it was a school project.

[Spinachcat]

Well, Poul Anderson invention, like mentioned above.

Poul Anderson is Gygax's pen name!

Ya really gotta keep up CRK!!

BTW, do we know anything about Poul Anderson's inspiration for his trolls?

And are there any other authors who did cool stuff with trolls pre-D&D?

[Omega]

Poul Anderson is Gygax's pen name!

Ya really gotta keep up CRK!!

BTW, do we know anything about Poul Anderson's inspiration for his trolls?

And are there any other authors who did cool stuff with trolls pre-D&D?

In some places Troll is interchangable with Ogre or Giant so depending on who is referencing what you can end up with all sorts.

Some in litrature I've seen were...

Bogeyman type powers.
Spellcasting
Turned to stone by water.
Forget the name of the story. But there was one where the trolls had a sort of psionic invisibility power.
Another one where they had a psionic fear projection power.
And in Stand Still-Stay Silent they are mutated humans and animals. As they are in a few other PA settings.
In one they were lizard men. No clue why.

As with Ogres and most everything else. Theres been lots of variations that sometimes range into the really odd.

[RPGPundit]

In my upcoming Lion & Dragon: Medieval Authentic OSR Roleplaying, Trolls turn to stone if exposed to sunlight.

[Elfdart]

Ah, good to know.  My knowledge came from memory of some old Scandinavian poems and a retranslation of Beowulf, which may or may not have been accurate, because it was a school project.

Seamus Heany's translation refers to Grendel's mother as a "troll-dam". I don't know how close that is to the Anglo-Saxon text, so you might be right.

[Ashakyre]

Drudge skeletons was one of the first MTG cards that captured my imagination, for whatever reasons. The vision of this sort of unkillable horde that keeps returning - it appealed to me for some reason. Does anyone know - when did that idea get started? I think of the old "Cauldron Born" from Prydain, or even Bedknobs and Broomsticks. What's earlier?

Things that just keep coming back. Always interesting to me.

[DavetheLost]

Trolls being turned to stone by sunlight has pre-Tolkien origins in folklore and myth. Stories vary as to if and when they turn back. Sundown and midnight are popular choices.

Skeletons that keep coming back, was it Rolemaster that had skeletons that drained Constitution (or hit points) and kept slowly regenerating unless the bones were boned?  Man, that made minor undead scary again.

[Voros]

In my upcoming Lion & Dragon: Medieval Authentic OSR Roleplaying, Trolls turn to stone if exposed to sunlight.

I always loved this and should integrate it into my game. Not a huge Tolkein fan but the trolls sequence in The Hobbit is a highlight of the book for me.

[Willie the Duck]

Drudge skeletons was one of the first MTG cards that captured my imagination, for whatever reasons. The vision of this sort of unkillable horde that keeps returning - it appealed to me for some reason. Does anyone know - when did that idea get started? I think of the old "Cauldron Born" from Prydain, or even Bedknobs and Broomsticks. What's earlier?

Things that just keep coming back. Always interesting to me.

I will have to check my Chronicles of Prydain to see how the Cauldron Born were described. Were they explicitly animated skeletons (as clearly distinct from zombies), or was that a convention from the movie? I seem to recall some discussion of undead (it might have been GURPS Undead or something like that) that stated that, outside of a few isolated incidents, there weren't a lot of folklore animated skeletons as there are with animated corpses or incorporeal spirits. It seems their ease at being put into movies made them much more of a thing. I'm not sure of how much that is the case.

As to what is earlier, Chronicles of Prydain started publication in '64, Bedknobs and Broomsticks the movie was from '71. It was based on books starting in '43, but those books were not all that widespread. Both of them are relatively modern, and closer to the concept. However, the idea of an unstoppable force which keeps coming back (except perhaps with some specific triggered effect that will make it stop) goes back to antiquity. Think Heracles and the Hydra--sure all the heads are attached to the same creature, but roughly speaking it is a horde which gets worse the more you fight it, and keeps coming back unless you do some very specific thing (torch the heads).