Quote from: jibbajibba;672174v) what the GM thinks makes the most enjoyable game for the players (SHOCK HORROR!!!) becuase afterall its the GMs job to loose to the players

A wise guy eh?  Nyuk nyuk nyuk.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;672162Charisma is much more than looks. The AD&D1e gives Hitler as an example of high Charisma. I don't think Gygax was saying he wanted to make sexy-time with Adolf. It's also presence. Some people have a strong presence, they walk in the room and everyone notices. Other people are easily ignored. Still others you dislike the moment you meet them.

Looks are a different thing, which is why 2e introduced a different attribute for them (which I don't use since it's not relevant to fantasy adventure games, but only to thespier stuff, but that's another story).

Wait..looks are not relavant? How so?

Quote from: jibbajibba;672174That is what I have been saying if you read my post.

I still don't think that if you put Adolf (and he did have beautiful eyes and a dapper moustache ) in a suit of armour on a horse then any monster he met would be swayed by his rhetoric and personal magnetism.

My point is simply that enconter rolls should be affected by a vast number of other things more than they are by charisma. I have no issue with using charisma for all social skills and as I have written at length I have no issue blending social skill checks into roleplaying so I suspect at my table charisma is far more useful that at some others.  
Initial reactions (which I shall try to steer back to the OP) should be far more affected by
i) the Intelligence of the creature
ii) the base "ferocity" of the creature
iii) the 'state' of the creature, hunting, travelling, protecting young, searching for a lost golden medalion that was lost 200 years ago etc etc ...
iv) the allignment of the creature
v) what the GM thinks makes the most enjoyable game for the players (SHOCK HORROR!!!) becuase afterall its the GMs job to loose to the players

Well, in another thread we talked about social skills.  And while I agree with all of the above to a large degree, charisma may not do to much in an initial reaction check (or social CC roll, as we use).  
First off, it can be an opposed roll, and in the case of a dragon, it would be.  They all have a huge intimidate/awe number when I play them.  So not that many will stand up to them in the first place.  

Secondly, in the other wise, many charisma-based social skills we use, such as Leadership, Organize, Exhort,  Fight to Oblivion, affect others around the PC and would help this situation.  And others would help in the initial response/ CC roll.
So...High Charisma by itself?  Not much good for us.  some levels in charisma-based skills?  very useful.

Quote from: LordVreeg;672343Well, in another thread we talked about social skills.  And while I agree with all of the above to a large degree, charisma may not do to much in an initial reaction check (or social CC roll, as we use).  
First off, it can be an opposed roll, and in the case of a dragon, it would be.  They all have a huge intimidate/awe number when I play them.  So not that many will stand up to them in the first place.  

Secondly, in the other wise, many charisma-based social skills we use, such as Leadership, Organize, Exhort,  Fight to Oblivion, affect others around the PC and would help this situation.  And others would help in the initial response/ CC roll.
So...High Charisma by itself?  Not much good for us.  some levels in charisma-based skills?  very useful.

Yes an opposed roll makes sense in Social skill checks. This is how I do skills in my heartbreaker. Still won't do that in a reaction situationas I see the PCs aas largely passive in relation to intial encounters.

Quote from: Bill;672336Wait..looks are not relavant? How so?

He's saying Charisma was much more than looks and really didn't focus on that, as is evidenced by the fact of the Comeliness attribute that was added in Unearthed Arcana.  I.e., they created another stat just for looks because Charisma was meant more for personality, persuasiveness, and presence.

Looks are not relevant to fantasy gaming? What? Maybe if all of your adventures happen in dungeons, but there's more to fantasy than that.

And come to think of it even dungeon adventurers may care about their looks for their own reasons. Dungeonpunk is a thing, after all.

Quote from: vytzka;672371Looks are not relevant to fantasy gaming? What? Maybe if all of your adventures happen in dungeons, but there's more to fantasy than that.

And come to think of it even dungeon adventurers may care about their looks for their own reasons. Dungeonpunk is a thing, after all.

In my dungeons, dark elves make sure to capture, and not kill any attractive elves or paladins they find.

I hear rumors that beautiful people get gifts more often too.

Quote from: Bill;672396I hear rumors that beautiful people get gifts more often too.

It isn't just a rumor. Play WOW and roll a hot chick as your toon. More players will offer you stuff, offer to run you through instances, etc. Its pretty funny and pathetic at the same time.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;672404It isn't just a rumor. Play WOW and roll a hot chick as your toon. More players will offer you stuff, offer to run you through instances, etc. Its pretty funny and pathetic at the same time.

You mean female avatars aren't female players?  :eek:

I thought with all those women, it was a great place to pick up chicks

Quote from: Exploderwizard;672404It isn't just a rumor. Play WOW and roll a hot chick as your toon. More players will offer you stuff, offer to run you through instances, etc. Its pretty funny and pathetic at the same time.

That is consistant with how my own IQ drops about 50 points in the presence of attractive women.

Quote from: Bill;672406That is consistant with how my own IQ drops about 50 points in the presence of attractive women.

Do we put that in the reaction charts?

Quote from: LordVreeg;672407Do we put that in the reaction charts?

Yes. Perhaps also add in a percentage chance to spontaneously say something stupid.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;672404It isn't just a rumor. Play WOW and roll a hot chick as your toon. More players will offer you stuff, offer to run you through instances, etc. Its pretty funny and pathetic at the same time.

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Exploderwizard;672404It isn't just a rumor. Play WOW and roll a hot chick as your toon. More players will offer you stuff, offer to run you through instances, etc. Its pretty funny and pathetic at the same time.

The last time I looked for it I couldn't find it,  but someone ran a blog for this once.  He routinely posed as female and deliberately pushed the envelope to see if his marks would discover him.  He asked for more and more outrageous things, and blamed any inconsistencies on his period.  It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad...

Quote from: Bill;672409Yes. Perhaps also add in a percentage chance to spontaneously say something stupid.

there needs to be a few levels of this.
 There is a difference between simple idiocy and mind-numbingly catastrophic pronouncements.