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Quote from: atpollard;708670On the other hand, all death is not pointless. As an example dear to my heart, Traveller (at least the 1977-1980's Classic version) was famous as the game where you can die in character generation. [now an optional rule in the latest Mongoose Traveller version of the game]. This potential death serves a very real metagame function. In Traveller, characters do not gain levels.

Rather characters get to start the game at any level of experience from a new recruit just out of a 4 year stint in the Army, to a gray haired retired Nobleman Admiral with vast wealth and decades worth of acquired skills ... potentially even lands to govern. In Traveller, the 'Apprentice' adventures with the 'Archmage'. Character generation is resolved in 4 year terms with a chance for skills, rank, wealth and death in each term. So there is a metagame balance struck between risking everything you have and gaining a little more. This balance of risk and reward places a check on everyone being a superhero. So the Traveller death in chargen is not pointless, but essential to the balance of the game system.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;708677How does that balance exactly? If the character keeps dying while the player doubles down during creation then its just a matter of time and repetition until an "Archmage" is generated, unless everyone has to take the first character they attempt which means gambling players might end up playing Traveler: The weekend at Bernie's edition. :)

First. All characters have the same hit points ... so the same shotgun blast will kill either the Admiral or the Recruit. Thus 'levels' are not as important in Traveller as they are in D&D.

Second. Chargen takes time ... lots of time. In real play, this means that a player who generates a crappy initial character (18 years old and weak, feeble, clumsy, stupid, illiterate and dirt poor) will choose to enter the Scout Service (50% mortality rate per term) and reenlist until the character dies and the player can start over. (Most people will do this at least once if they are in a lot of games where you keep the first character that you roll up.)

But let's assume that you get a good set of initial ability rolls. With each term that you roll, you generate a more detailed character with more than just stuff, money and skills ... he has a history and an evolving personality. The player (at least this player) tends to become more emotionally invested in the character. So his death becomes a real loss ... not like the steps of grieving, but more like "dang, he would have been fun to play and now I have wasted several hours and need to start all over again".

Third. Let's be real, people are people. Some will cheat and others will invest 1000 hours generating 500 characters so they can play Duke Admiral Perfect with his shining white teeth and chest full of ribbons. In Traveller, you treat them like any other 'munchkin' player with his Vorpal Holy Avenger armed Demigod ... you tell the player to roll up a character while you watch, or you run a 'munchkin' campaign where everyone has a demigod fudged character.

Fourth. Traveller has a 2D6 core game mechanic, so any character with about three terms is probably a master at some task (three terms will typically yield skill level 3 in something which makes the target roll 8+ on 2D6+3 ... 83% chance of success). So very high skill levels serve as prestige only, the difference between 83% success at skill 3 and 100% success at skill 6 is trivial in actual game play. This means that the super character in Traveller is more like a Fighter-Cleric-Thief-Wizard than an Archmage ... he can do everything well compared to a normal group where each character does one thing well and they need each other.

This makes the super character not all that much fun to play ... who wants to be an adventuring party of 1?

Quote from: smiorgan;708686In Traveller a player will have no fond memories of the character in play, so they will not be invested in the character in quite the same way.

I cannot speak for all Traveller players, but I respectfully disagree.

Chargen in Traveller is not like Chargen in D&D. In D&D, generating a character is what you do to get ready to play. In Traveller, the ‘play’ starts immediately after the character’s stats are rolled and assigned … at that point, he/she is an 18 year old ‘zero-level’ Player Character with decisions to make about what they want to become. Chargen is as much a game within the game as any adventure the character will later experience. They are already immersed in and interacting with the world. They are planning, and doing and evolving, and gaining experiences. In the latest ‘Mongoose Traveller incarnation of the rules, they are meeting contacts, making allies and gaining rivals that will continue to interact with them far into the future.

In summary, I feel that a Traveller player is every bit as invested in his character at the end of chargen as a D&D Player is invested in his character by the time that character has gained a couple of levels.

I agree that a super character is not much fun, but some players do like to be from Krypton.

Dying in char gen was fun but it serves no purpose because every pc is going to start the game with a character. Its the one thing you can be sure of.
So if a pc dies you create another in effect you can work through as many as you like until you get one you like.
In d&d if you have a player that always runs any pc without uber stats as a suicidal nutcase just so the can make a new one is deemed to be taking the piss, especially at my table. Traveller builds that option into the system.
Yes it acts as a limit on power by making furthur terms risky but a better way would to have randomly determined the number of terms from the start or have a now you start play trap in chargen or well lots of stuff.
Rolling life events, wives,kids, injuries whatever produces more interesting pcs

Quote from: jibbajibba;708709Dying in char gen was fun but it serves no purpose because every pc is going to start the game with a character. Its the one thing you can be sure of.

It serves a purpose of being an entertaining metagame of risk and chance. Gambling with imaginary lives. Rolling the dice, taking a risk, and seeing if you beat the odds. It's external to the process of "investing" in the PC. A fun exercise for the player who enjoys that kind of thing.

Quote from: jibbajibba;708709Yes it acts as a limit on power by making furthur terms risky but a better way would to have randomly determined the number of terms from the start or have a now you start play trap in chargen or well lots of stuff.

I use a lifepath system and there is an increasing chance of base stats dropping as time goes on, representing the depredations of age.

Characters that died in chargen made for good NPC's; however there is a huge difference between the basic two line Book 1/Supplement 4 type characters and the advanced Book 4+ ones. This limited not only careers, but the flavor of the game, and how much work one put into the "minigame" without chucking it over the side if their character died before even playing.

The easiest way is to get rid of death and what not in the Char Gen and the GM sets the term # limit for the game being run. Thus, it can be a 1 term game, 5 term, etc.  From day 1 it was a waste of time to have the gen method.

Quote from: The Traveller;708716I use a lifepath system and there is an increasing chance of base stats dropping as time goes on, representing the depredations of age.

Love lifepath model just don't think death as a chargen option makes any sense yes its fun as a minigame on its own but as a chargen system its a pointless effect.

Better to randomly determine a random age then run life path up to that point, or to select a starting age then work toward it with an inherrent risk in the system that you fall out of chargen at that point

Quote from: jibbajibba;708774Love lifepath model just don't think death as a chargen option makes any sense yes its fun as a minigame on its own but as a chargen system its a pointless effect.

Better to randomly determine a random age then run life path up to that point, or to select a starting age then work toward it with an inherrent risk in the system that you fall out of chargen at that point

The effect is time. If you make the character at the table, it is moreof a factor than if you make the character at home. Personally i like this aspect of traveller and but I do think forcing something bad on the next character if you die one way to get around the problem.

As with everything.

Some are going to play it to just get a character.
Some are going to play it because its fun for them.
Some are going to game the system.
etc.

Different approaches as usual.

Adventures in Tekumel had you possibly having kids before the adventure started, possibly permanently scarred, etc.
Adding in the three paragraph books that are part of the chargen then your character can die in various interesting or unpleasant ways, be enslaved for life, sent to deadly labor camps, and more. But at least you got a story on the way there.

Very much a press your luck thing. Especially if you had a good character during chargen then you might opt to play it safe and stay in school and rick a few scars or setbacks. But the adventure part was tempting for the extra free skills, wealth and possible artifacts.

I always saw Traveller chargen as also generating the backstory for the character. If I'm trying to roll up a Belter... and had a previous attempt at Chargen... then that dead proto-character, perhaps, was one of this one's partners... "Heh, I decided to get out of that business when I saw good old Jeffer go out, desperately sucking at vacuum." Or that dead proto-character might be a relative whose untimely death creates some adventure hook or some common bond with other PCs.
I'm just thinking there are ways to make use of the guys who die in Chargen.

Quote from: Simlasa;708826I'm just thinking there are ways to make use of the guys who die in Chargen.

Traditionally, they get reincarnated as NPCs. :)

If a chargen death occurs (it's rare these days, since it's been an optional rule for 30+ years), just have the referee do a one-shot session where you know your character is going to die sometime during it.  Make it an epic death.

Quote from: atpollard;708688But let’s assume that you get a good set of initial ability rolls. With each term that you roll, you generate a more detailed character with more than just stuff, money and skills … he has a history and an evolving personality. The player (at least this player) tends to become more emotionally invested in the character. So his death becomes a real loss … not like the steps of grieving, but more like “dang, he would have been fun to play and now I have wasted several hours and need to start all over again”.

...More like 5 minutes. If one is spending more than 15 minutes rolling up a new Traveller character, even for noob players, something is seriously wrong...

Quote from: atpollard;708688Third. Let’s be real, people are people. Some will cheat and others will invest 1000 hours generating 500 characters so they can play Duke Admiral Perfect with his shining white teeth and chest full of ribbons. In Traveller, you treat them like any other ‘munchkin’ player with his Vorpal Holy Avenger armed Demigod … you tell the player to roll up a character while you watch, or you run a ‘munchkin’ campaign where everyone has a demigod fudged character.

Yup. The players roll up their starting character right at the table at the beginning of the session. No chance to roll up 500 characters until the "perfect fleet admiral" shows up in the game. I'd have to add here... If they actually did roll up a Perfect Fleet Admiral, I'd probably let them play the character, and throw in one or two really good warships as well. That would pretty much kickstart a reeeal interesting game!

Quote from: atpollard;708688Fourth. Traveller has a 2D6 core game mechanic, so any character with about three terms is probably a master at some task (three terms will typically yield skill level 3 in something which makes the target roll 8+ on 2D6+3 … 83% chance of success). So very high skill levels serve as prestige only, the difference between 83% success at skill 3 and 100% success at skill 6 is trivial in actual game play. This means that the super character in Traveller is more like a Fighter-Cleric-Thief-Wizard than an Archmage … he can do everything well compared to a normal group where each character does one thing well and they need each other.

Not really, There are no skill groups with classic Traveller, However any Traveller character with 3 skill ranks is probably very good with that specific skill, but no character will have all the skills mastered. Traveller is the only game I know of, even now, where going past the 5th? term, means the character has to start rolling for attribute (and skill) losses due to aging and natural decrepitude. Senior citizens have quite a bit of trouble being highly effective adventurers without some additional extraordinary circumstances keeping them youthful. If one is playing by the book, Super-Characters are extremely rare.

Quote from: atpollard;708688This makes the super character not all that much fun to play … who wants to be an adventuring party of 1?

???? not getting this with classic Traveller at all... The best characters may begin with some minor Starship in a galaxy with a bountiful amount of similar vessels, and probably some decent sized navies fielding fleets of capital warships to boot.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;708848If a chargen death occurs (it's rare these days, since it's been an optional rule for 30+ years), just have the referee do a one-shot session where you know your character is going to die sometime during it.  Make it an epic death.

Not even.

If using Death in Charegn, just keep the PC as an NPC. Knowing that the character is going to die in-games removes all of the gravitas from an epic death full of heroic self-sacrifice as chosen by the Player.

If you do not want the character to have the possibility to die, then do not use Death in Chargen.

Quote from: jeff37923;708945If you do not want the character to have the possibility to die, then do not use Death in Chargen.

I remember one game we played in, back in the 80's, someone pulled the Arduin Grimoire's disfigurement table out, and used that in lieu of death during chargen, ending up with a one-armed naval officer.

Didn't last. The players very soon preferred re-rolling an entirely new character instead of having a gimped characters to start the game out.

It was fun while it lasted though!

Quote from: GameDaddy;708947I remember one game we played in, back in the 80's, someone pulled the Arduin Grimoire's disfigurement table out, and used that in lieu of death during chargen, ending up with a one-armed naval officer.

Didn't last. The players very soon preferred re-rolling an entirely new character instead of having a gimped characters to start the game out.

It was fun while it lasted though!

Well, I dropped Death in Chargen when I was trying to roll up a Belter and ended up with 11 dead Belters in a row, and the uniqueness lost its appeal to me in favor of expedience.

Quote from: GameDaddy;708934...More like 5 minutes. If one is spending more than 15 minutes rolling up a new Traveller character, even for noob players something is seriously wrong...

LBB1-3 ... Yup.
LBB 4+ ... A bit longer.
Mongoose Traveller with the new life events, allies, links to other PCs, & group skills ... A bit longer still.

Of course, I am the guy who likes narratives that create a detailed backstory that let's me really get into the character when I start playing them, so it takes me a bit longer.

And then there is the hyperbole factor. ;)

QuoteNot really, There are no skill groups with classic Traveller, However any Traveller character with 3 skill ranks is probably very good with that specific skill, but no character will have all the skills mastered. Traveller is the only game I know of, even now, where going past the 5th? term, means the character has to start rolling for attribute (and skill) losses due to aging and natural decrepitude. Senior citizens have quite a bit of trouble being highly effective adventurers without some additional extraordinary circumstances keeping them youthful. If one is playing by the book, Super-Characters are extremely rare.

I agree in principal, but in practice, there are only a handful of critical skills that the typical starship crew adventuring party really NEED. And one character can have enough of the critical skills to allow the player to hog the spotlight. In that sense, the super character in Traveller is more of a Rich Pilot-Engineer-Marksman-Psion with skill 3 in all of the important skills than a skill-10 pilot. That's where it is closer to multi classed than an 'Archmage'

As an side, I once wanted to play a 74 year old retired mafioso loaded up with all of those 'interpersonal' skills that most adventuring groups tend to be short on. Rolling it up was quite a surprising experience. I never really thought about how many skills he would acquire. I kept needing education bonuses to allow him to learn more skills. Even then the skill levels got silly and I had to make him a few terms younger.

It was funny when Vincent tried to get involved in a bar fight and couldn't lift the chair to hit the bad guy from behind. (Strength 2)

El Jefe! The local traveller expert. Moar of these threads please, I am underexposed to the game, and to be honest it sounds like a lot of fun.

Quote from: atpollard;708950I agree in principal, but in practice, there are only a handful of critical skills that the typical starship crew adventuring party really NEED. And one character can have enough of the critical skills to allow the player to hog the spotlight. In that sense, the super character in Traveller is more of a Rich Pilot-Engineer-Marksman-Psion with skill 3 in all of the important skills than a skill-10 pilot. That's where it is closer to multi classed than an 'Archmage'

As an side, I once wanted to play a 74 year old retired mafioso loaded up with all of those 'interpersonal' skills that most adventuring groups tend to be short on. Rolling it up was quite a surprising experience. I never really thought about how many skills he would acquire. I kept needing education bonuses to allow him to learn more skills. Even then the skill levels got silly and I had to make him a few terms younger.

It was funny when Vincent tried to get involved in a bar fight and couldn't lift the chair to hit the bad guy from behind. (Strength 2)

Not surprised Mongoose did something to slow down the play... Still I had a look at Mtrav, and the backstory option seemed interesting. I just left that up to the players, and said "Make up a backstory, What system are you from again?  I'll provide a few specific details about that to help you figure out your backstory..."


It's 10:51 local time now 02:51 UTC. Let's see how many characters I can roll up in an hour....

======================================================
1. Alba Solena - Underworld (Muscle) (age 30)
Str 11 +1
Dex 10
End 10 +2
Int 6
Edu 9
Soc 5


at age 18 Found a Syndicate mentor and gains Streetwise 1 as a skill...

Year - Assignment - Notes
  1 - On Planet... Robbery - Skill Learned Disguise
  2  - Kidnapping - Skill, Vehicle 1
  3 - Bookmaking -
  4 - Robbery - Skill learned Disguise 2
  5 - Infiltration -
  6 - Prison, Solitary Confinement, +1 Str, +1 End
  7 - Work Release - +1 End
  8 - larceny - Skill Learned Disguise 3
  9 - Robbery - Skill Learned Instruction - 1
 10 - Offworld Smuggling -
 11 - On Planet... Bookmaking
 12 - larceny

Mustering out benefits... Middle Passage, 11,000cr

Notes: a proficient Burgler with excellent disguise skills.


=============================================
2. Alamra Surabi, Entertainer (The Rock Star)
Str 9
Dex 6
End 2 +3
Int 3
Edu 9
Soc 6

Term 1 -Character becomes recognized in 6 sectors as an entertainer...
yr 1 - Music Performance - Special Duty Tour - Carousing 1, +1 Soc
yr 2 - Music Performance - Special Duty Tour - Carousing 2
yr 3 - Music Performance, +1 End
yr 4 - Music Performance - Special Duty Tour - Noteriety 1, the
        characters works become very popular across 1 continent
        of his homeworld, +1 End
yr 5 - Music Perfomance, +1 End
yr 6 - Music Performance - Special Duty Offworld Tour - Notoriety 2
         The character becomes very popular on all the continents of
        a distant world, Skill - Acting 1
yr 7 - Music Performance - Special Duty Offworld Tour - Notoriety 3
         The character becomes very popular throughout the solar
        system of a third system, Skill Interpersonal 1
yr 8 - Music Performance - Special Duty Offworld Tour - Notoriety 4
         The character becomes very popular throughout subsector,
         Skill - Mechanical 1
yr 9 - Music Performance - Special Duty Offworld Tour - Skill - Vice 1
yr 10 -Music Performance - Special Duty Offworld Tour - Skill - Instruction 1
yr 11 - Music Performance - Special Duty Offworld Tour -Recognition 2,
          Skill - Interpersonal 2
yr 12 - Music Performance - Special Duty Multi-subsector Tour - Notoriety 5
          Character becomes very popular across 6 Subsectors
          Skill - Interpersonal 3
 
Mustering Out Benefits -- 70,000 Cr, High Passage, Travellers Aid Society Membership.


So... 2 in an hour. No deaths... Could have gotten three in, if I didn't have to type all this stuff into the forum....

...Also you really telling me that a gung-ho military combat starship pilot, is going to be able to hog the spotlight from a party animal rockstar, famous across six subsectors, who has a musclebound bodyguard with him (who happens to have syndicate connections)?

Quote from: The Traveller;708954El Jefe! The local traveller expert. Moar of these threads please, I am underexposed to the game, and to be honest it sounds like a lot of fun.

Hell, atpollard and rancke both write for the game more than I do. They are just as good sources of Traveller info. I am just their drunken cousin. :D

Quote from: GameDaddy;708976..Also you really telling me that a gung-ho military combat starship pilot, is going to be able to hog the spotlight from a party animal rockstar, famous across six subsectors, who has a musclebound bodyguard with him (who happens to have syndicate connections)?

Cowboy Bebop - The Spinward Marches.....

Quote from: GameDaddy;708976Not surprised Mongoose did something to slow down the play... Still I had a look at Mtrav, and the backstory option seemed interesting. I just left that up to the players, and said "Make up a backstory, What system are you from again?  I'll provide a few specific details about that to help you figure out your backstory..."

Personally, I am a huge fan of the old LBB1-3 version of Classic Traveller, but Mongoose really did tack some very interesting bits onto the old game.

QuoteSo... 2 in an hour. No deaths... Could have gotten three in, if I didn't have to type all this stuff into the forum....

Hey, I admitted to using hyperbole. :)
It was fun watching you create a couple of characters.

Quote..Also you really telling me that a gung-ho military combat starship pilot, is going to be able to hog the spotlight from a party animal rockstar, famous across six subsectors, who has a musclebound bodyguard with him (who happens to have syndicate connections)?

So the adventure party has a ship and needs to fill the crew positions (like Serenity or the Millennium Falcon). So munchkin claims the Pilot-Captain role ... allowing him to attempt to boss everyone around in the name of roleplaying. Then the ship needs speculative cargo to support the enterprise and munchkin Pilot-Captain happens to have Trader &  Broker skills giving him control over the group purse strings. Every time you arrive in port and trouble breaks out, munchkin Pilot-Captain-Broker is the first mouth open to leap into the action with his gun drawn.

And if the referee allows your Rock Star and Bodyguard to drive the action, is there no chance that the ex-scout pilot will end up a bystander for much of the adventure?

Like all games, it all comes down to the people involved and how they handle it. Can you say that you have NEVER encountered a player/character combination that was even a little like what I described? ;)

If you want a highly improbable super-character as an end in itself, then there's no real point even in having a computer program generate it. You can just write down whatever you want!

The provision of a game to play is for the sake of those who will have fun actually playing it. What's so hard to understand about that?

Quote from: Phillip;709271If you want a highly improbable super-character as an end in itself, then there's no real point even in having a computer program generate it. You can just write down whatever you want!

The provision of a game to play is for the sake of those who will have fun actually playing it. What's so hard to understand about that?

Some people believe that just because there is a potential to game the system that this means that everyone must be gaming the system.

There are game designers that obsess over this. Trying to come up with foolproof rules, more and more rules to try and prevent the percieved threat of rampant cheating. I point out then that this is an impossible dream.

Sure you can game the chargen. But where the hell was the GM during this? Or the other players. Just say no if it gets out of hand.

Quote from: Omega;709287Sure you can game the chargen. But where the hell was the GM during this? Or the other players. Just say no if it gets out of hand.

In one of my Traveller games, I'm a player in it, and now a new player joined in recently that absolutely refused to make his character using Traveller's chargen.  He insisted on telling the referee all what his character was about that he wanted to role-play in our Traveller game with.  The referee gave him a character sheet that had some skills that matched what the character was.  The player is now having difficulty with the skill levels he was given.  He doesn't even know how the skills work because he won't read through the skill descriptions in the rules.  He thinks the skills should bend towards what he wants his character to do in the game.  He can't even tell me what kind of character he is when asked because he refuses to link his character with any of the career types in the rulebook (of which there are 12 to pick from).

The other problem is that we are playing in a sandbox in real time.  We don't know what may happen to our characters from one minute to the next.  After four sessions (4 hours each), about 16 hours have gone by in the game.  But this same player insists on having a plot that we all follow, and that his character have some sort of life-changing event happen to him (become god-like or something), and there's an epic finale of some kind covering years of campaigning and stuff.

I may have to shoot him in the next game.  That will be life-changing enough for his character.

er... yeah. Thats a "Why hasnt anyone said no?" moment.

Quote from: GameDaddy;708947I remember one game we played in, back in the 80's, someone pulled the Arduin Grimoire's disfigurement table out, and used that in lieu of death during chargen, ending up with a one-armed naval officer.

Didn't last. The players very soon preferred re-rolling an entirely new character instead of having a gimped characters to start the game out.

It was fun while it lasted though!

See that is exactly the sort of thing that makes the game more interesting.

And the players are taking the piss :) they basically want the illusion of risk 'you can die in chargen' but in reality they know if they die in chargen they just get a new character so really its no risk at all.

And really how hard is it for a navy admiral to get himself off to a tech 15 world and get a cybernetic arm......

The only Traveler I ever played was the original.

Took 10 min or so to generate a character.  Usually we'd take turns, everybody trying for a Scout until somebody had a ship.  Then we'd fill out the crew.

It was a fun way to fill some time while sitting around yakking if nobody felt like running a game right then.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;709291In one of my Traveller games, I'm a player in it, and now a new player joined in recently that absolutely refused to make his character using Traveller's chargen.  He insisted on telling the referee all what his character was about that he wanted to role-play in our Traveller game with.  The referee gave him a character sheet that had some skills that matched what the character was.  The player is now having difficulty with the skill levels he was given.  He doesn't even know how the skills work because he won't read through the skill descriptions in the rules.  He thinks the skills should bend towards what he wants his character to do in the game.  He can't even tell me what kind of character he is when asked because he refuses to link his character with any of the career types in the rulebook (of which there are 12 to pick from).

The other problem is that we are playing in a sandbox in real time.  We don't know what may happen to our characters from one minute to the next.  After four sessions (4 hours each), about 16 hours have gone by in the game.  But this same player insists on having a plot that we all follow, and that his character have some sort of life-changing event happen to him (become god-like or something), and there's an epic finale of some kind covering years of campaigning and stuff.

I may have to shoot him in the next game.  That will be life-changing enough for his character.

This is why you shouldn't game with an asshole.

This is one of the benefits of random character generation, it weeds out the Unique Special Snowflake players. Either you stomp down and make them play whatever they roll and they get better, or you stomp down and make them play whatever they roll and they cry and run away.

Notice I didn't include, "give in to them" as an option. As I've said many times before, the most important words a GM can speak are, "no, don't be stupid."

In every life there comes some annoying dickheads. At work I cannot avoid annoying dickheads. In family I cannot avoid annoying dickheads. In my hobbies I can, this is part of the joy of hobbies.

Quote from: jeff37923;709309This is why you shouldn't game with an asshole.

If only they came with a sign. :)

Quote from: atpollard;709311If only they came with a sign. :)

Most do, in one form or another.

In the above case, the Players behavior is reportedly disruptive. Now the Referee must approach the Player and let him know that his behavior is starting to suck the fun away from the rest of the Players. He may either cease the annoying behavior or cease gaming with that group.

Games, even ones done over G+, are social events and must use some social skills by the Players along with the rules of the game itself to play.

Quote from: jeff37923;709321Most do, in one form or another.

In the above case, the Players behavior is reportedly disruptive. Now the Referee must approach the Player and let him know that his behavior is starting to suck the fun away from the rest of the Players. He may either cease the annoying behavior or cease gaming with that group.

Games, even ones done over G+, are social events and must use some social skills by the Players along with the rules of the game itself to play.

I meant a sign to identify them before they get through the front door. ;)

Quote from: atpollard;709331I meant a sign to identify them before they get through the front door. ;)

Actually, this is one of the main reasons why I run demo games in public and then invite those Players that I have vetted in the public games to games at home. I do not want an asshole to know where I live.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;709310At work I cannot avoid annoying dickheads. In family I cannot avoid annoying dickheads. In my hobbies I can, this is part of the joy of hobbies.

This.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;709379This.

Usually. But somethimes the annoying dickhead at the game table is a close friend that is not a dickhead away from the game table.

Quote from: Bill;709398Usually. But somethimes the annoying dickhead at the game table is a close friend that is not a dickhead away from the game table.

Or is the sole transportation for other players...

I have to say that I've been running Traveller for a very long time (OK....1986) and I've never killed a character during chargen.  Never.  I always assumed a failed survival roll simply meant that the character met with disfigurement or some other serious injury.

In my experience, I have found that, with any RPG, its better to create the characters as the first gaming session.  Invite folks over and make the characters en masse.  This tends to avoid the "I sat for 37 hours and created the perfect character" syndrome.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;709310In every life there comes some annoying dickheads. At work I cannot avoid annoying dickheads. In family I cannot avoid annoying dickheads. In my hobbies I can, this is part of the joy of hobbies.

I need this on a t-shirt.

The main function of "death" in traveller was as a safeguard; it was to create an element of risk in trying to continue taking terms and becoming too awesome.  Get rid of it, and (even if you keep other things like 'forced quitting') there's far less motivation to muster out anytime before you absolutely have to.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;710204The main function of "death" in traveller was as a safeguard; it was to create an element of risk in trying to continue taking terms and becoming too awesome.  Get rid of it, and (even if you keep other things like 'forced quitting') there's far less motivation to muster out anytime before you absolutely have to.

RPGPundit

That's why God invented GM's.  The GM simply states a term level limit for a given game...  Pretty simple señor.

Quote from: Arduin;710206That's why God invented GM's.  The GM simply states a term level limit for a given game...  Pretty simple señor.

I'd rather have the option to gamble and die trying, even on the first term, than know that I can safely roll up to the GM's established term limit.
It's just more fun that way... and it tells me something extra about my PC and where he comes from... a little bit of story from his past.

Quote from: Simlasa;710211I'd rather have the option to gamble and die trying than, even on the first term, than know that I can safely roll up to the GM's established term limit.
It's just more fun that way... and it tells me something extra about my PC and where he comes from... a little bit of story from his past.

Agreed. It is more fun to take the risk and gamble, than have the Referee dictate, "...aaaand... you're done". And if you gamble and lose, big deal. You spent 5 minutes; try again. Maybe don't go all in next time.

My preference is to definitely do Traveller chargen at the first session, but not limit terms. Have the player chargen 3 PCs and choose which one they want to play.

Quote from: Simlasa;710211I'd rather have the option to gamble and die trying than, even on the first term, than know that I can safely roll up to the GM's established term limit.
It's just more fun that way... and it tells me something extra about my PC and where he comes from... a little bit of story from his past.

What I don't get is why death, instead of "you start play now".

Quote from: The Traveller;710228What I don't get is why death, instead of "you start play now".

Mongoose had the same mindset as you.  And, they are more successful because of that.

Quote from: The Traveller;710228What I don't get is why death, instead of "you start play now".

Death creates a sense of excitement and real risk vs reward.
Start now is less exciting, and has minimal risk.

There is also a diffeence that may not be obvious.
With death, the character you end up playing is almsot certainly going to be more skilled than the one you would end up with from 'start now'.

Quote from: Arduin;710234Mongoose had the same mindset as you. And, they are more successful because of that.

I don't have a strong preference for death in generation or not, but I suspect some players can't handle death in generation and assume special snowflake status.

Quote from: Bill;710237I don't have a strong preference for death in generation or not, but I suspect some players can't handle death in generation and assume special snowflake status.

I have no idea how not wanting to die before the game starts qualifies as special snowflake behaviour.

Quote from: Bill;710237I don't have a strong preference for death in generation or not, but I suspect some players can't handle death in generation and assume special snowflake status.

What are you babbling on about now?  Not wanting to waste time before a game starts is "snowflake status".  Ya know, heavy drugs are BAD for you.  It would be best if you stopped using them.

Okay sunshine?

Quote from: The Traveller;710238I have no idea how not wanting to die before the game starts qualifies as special snowflake behaviour.

Perhaps not you, but that's why I said 'some' players.

Quote from: Arduin;710239What are you babbling on about now?  Not wanting to waste time before a game starts is "snowflake status".  Ya know, heavy drugs are BAD for you.  It would be best if you stopped using them.

Okay sunshine?

Thats not at all what I said, but I will clarify.

What you call waste time, some call entertainment.

Quote from: Bill;710237I don't have a strong preference for death in generation or not, but I suspect some players can't handle death in generation and assume special snowflake status.

That's part of it.  Then there are the players coming from D20 systems that don't want their characters to be over 30 years old, and can't wait to start leveling up and gain XP.  It takes about 5 or 6 times to explain to just one player that Traveller doesn't work that way 99% of the time.

Did someone just compare heavy drug use with Traveller chargen death?

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;710243That's part of it.  Then there are the players coming from D20 systems that don't want their characters to be over 30 years old, and can't wait to start leveling up and gain XP.  It takes about 5 or 6 times to explain to just one player that Traveller doesn't work that way 99% of the time.

Creating characters in Traveller is so much more fun, and only takes a few minutes.

Completely out of my ass, but...

Could it simply be a mechanism to make you value your character more?  After all, he almost died before you even started.

Sounds like your basic psych stunt to me.

Quote from: The Traveller;710238I have no idea how not wanting to die before the game starts qualifies as special snowflake behaviour.

I don't necessarily disagree with death-in-chargen but I'm not going to force it on new players who've never encountered Traveller before. The two times I've done CharGen for new players (using Mongoose) I've had 1st-term mishaps, to which I've just had them reroll it. My thinking was "it's their first experience with the game, let's not spring THAT on them the first time out."

Quote from: mcbobbo;710272Completely out of my ass, but...

Could it simply be a mechanism to make you value your character more?  After all, he almost died before you even started.

Sounds like your basic psych stunt to me.

Sounds like Marc.  Maybe putting out T5 in such a crappy state is so that when he goes to sell them T5.1 (T5 fixed) they'll value it even more.

Quote from: mcbobbo;710272Completely out of my ass, but...

Could it simply be a mechanism to make you value your character more?  After all, he almost died before you even started.

Sounds like your basic psych stunt to me.

I thought of character death during chargen as a way of showing how harsh our character's jobs/careers were.  And what didn't kill you made you stronger, even though the game mechanic didn't mirror this thought.

I thought it was just GM Marc getting sick of sitting there waiting for hours while his players rolled up elderly masters at everything. "Fellahs, it's 8:30 and we haven't even ordered pizza yet, hurry the fuck up or rocks fall and you die."

Remember that before the late 1980s, most rpgs were not designed over several years by committees. It was just one or a few guys who'd play out the rules, make up a chart on the spot to cover some situation, type it up and physically paste it into their rulebook, and eventually just publish it.

Playtesting HEROIC, last night the players had their characters off on a hunting trip where they planned to murder everyone, they wanted one guy (who they considered more likely to be able to fight them than the rest) and his sidekicks to leave, so they came up with a plan to get drunk one night and have someone throw up on the guy so he'd leave.

"Ah, but what kind of drunks are you all? This could get messy. I'll make a chart."

1 - sleepy
2 - angry
3 - sad
4 - sleazy
5 - sentimental
6 - happy

Luckily, nobody was an angry drunk. The guy was thrown up on and fell asleep in the puke, when he woke in the morning he decided to go home and the PCs were later able to murder everyone uninterrupted.

You can bet I'll be putting that table into the published edition. I'll probably make it 2d6 for more options, including "roll twice", since it's always fun to get an angry sad drunk, etc. Is it balanced? Is it realistic? Who cares?! It's stupid, and therefore fun.

It's senseless to put more thought into understanding a rule than the authours put into creating that rule.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;710448Playtesting HEROIC, last night the players had their characters off on a hunting trip where they planned to murder everyone, they wanted one guy (who they considered more likely to be able to fight them than the rest) and his sidekicks to leave, so they came up with a plan to get drunk one night and have someone throw up on the guy so he'd leave.

"Ah, but what kind of drunks are you all? This could get messy. I'll make a chart."

1 - sleepy
2 - angry
3 - sad
4 - sleazy
5 - sentimental
6 - happy

Luckily, nobody was an angry drunk. The guy was thrown up on and fell asleep in the puke, when he woke in the morning he decided to go home and the PCs were later able to murder everyone uninterrupted.

You can bet I'll be putting that table into the published edition. I'll probably make it 2d6 for more options, including "roll twice", since it's always fun to get an angry sad drunk, etc. Is it balanced? Is it realistic? Who cares?! It's stupid, and therefore fun.

It's senseless to put more thought into understanding a rule than the authours put into creating that rule.

One of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society actually has drinking rules.

Quote from: The Traveller;710238I have no idea how not wanting to die before the game starts qualifies as special snowflake behaviour.

For me, the chargen is very much part of the game, or a subgame. It's not JUST character creation, it's an introduction to the setting... gives you a glimpse into the unforgiving nature of life in space. It's fun unto itself, for myself and plenty of others.
I do think that some folks dislike it, complain about it because they just cannot abide anything bad happening to their precious character... EVER.
You and Arduin are obviously not those sorts, based on things you've said elsewhere... so I'm not really sure why you don't see the entertainment value.

Quote from: Simlasa;710649so I'm not really sure why you don't see the entertainment value.

Because it is unnecessary.  It is more attractive to those who like solo play rather than RP.  It shows nothing about the game as each GM runs a different game and the chargen rules can't capture that at all.

Quote from: Simlasa;710649so I'm not really sure why you don't see the entertainment value.

It strikes me as a waste of time, if I wanted to play a ripping game of chargen I'd just pull out Burning Wheel.

Traveller chargen is a combo of gambling and playing chicken. That's why its fun. How badass can I become before the dice kill me? When do I say "enough" and stop risking the dice?

Can I sit there (naked) rolling over and over again until I get the "perfect" character? Sure, but that's lame. Kinda like only playing a D&D character with only 18s.

I've run Trav for decades. We either roll'em up at the table and laugh it up, or I just give you a number of skill points equal to (INT + EDU)/2 and your starting age is 20+2D6 and you tell me about your career background if I want to do quick and dirty chargen. For cons, I will often do this with a skill list on the char sheet and a prechosen background based on the con adventure (aka, Scouts, Marines, etc) and the skill list is based on the skills within that Trav service.

Quote from: Spinachcat;710684Traveller chargen is a combo of gambling and playing chicken. That's why its fun.

Knowing my group... ...we would have a hoot with Traveller chargen.

There would be some serious, quality, guffawing, hooting, and cheering going on.

One of my favorite groups had everyone do shots when we dared for another term in chargen. Of course, all the dorks kept egging each other on to dare each other to risk more and more terms. Good times.

Quote from: The Traveller;710671It strikes me as a waste of time, if I wanted to play a ripping game of chargen I'd just pull out Burning Wheel.

Yeah see... I just can't see it as a waste... any more than other elements of the game. Generally I don't much care about traditional character generation, I'd just as soon be handed a pre-gen most of the time (as long as I get to name it)... a challenge to make it my own thing vs. pretending I care about squeezing out some optimized character (either mechanically or my special snowflake). Lifepath generation and particularly Traveller is always more engaging for me.
It's just a matter of taste... though once again, one of those things I like that most others complain about.

I like the randomness of Mongoose Traveller's chargen, either when playing Traveller or another game that uses the core rules.

My thoughts on dying in CT chargen:

A common complaint about Classic Traveller is that characters can die during character generation. At the surface of it, it looks like a very strong and robust complaint - why should character generation be based on chance rather than the player's choice, and why should a character die even before starting the game?

However, there are actually good reasons to follow this controversial, and lethal, rule.

First of all, Classic Traveller game starts not after character generation, but rather at the beginning of character generation. It is a mini-game all by itself - a game of chance, if you will. And like all gambles, it has its own thrill in it. Will your character survive multiple terms of combat as a Marine? Will you muster out a General, or, alternatively, finish your career at a state funeral reserved to military heroes? Go on, gamble!

Another thing to keep in mind is that, as long as you stick to Book 1 and Supplement 4, Classic Traveller character generation is FAST. VERY FAST. Once you know the system well, generating a character takes a mere five minutes. So even if your character dies, you don't lose much time - in fact, you've only played a little game of dice for several moments, no harm done.

But the real reasons for the chances for character death in Classic Traveller character generation are twofold: from a setting perspective and from a game-mechanics perspective.

From a setting perspective, a military career, especially in actual combat service (when you can learn all these nifty combat skills), is a risky thing. Combat is no picnic, after all. You don't earn combat experience by sitting behind a desk, but rather by shooting and being shot at. Soldiers die in many cases; that is the nature of war. And the game reflects that.

From a game-mechanics perspective, keep in mind that Classic Traveller - like most versions of Traveller - uses the 2d6 curve for task resolution. This curve is highly sensitive to modifiers, so even a mere +1 is significant; high skill levels will skew the curve much towards the character's favor, and thus are highly valuable. The chance of death during character generation, therefore, exists in order to make higher skills rarer and more valuable. Otherwise, why not just stick in, say, the Scouts for terms and terms on no end and have a character with Pilot-5? This presents the player with a choice: do you muster out now alive but with a smaller amount of skills, or risk a certain chance of death in the line of duty to earn better combat experience? Are you determined enough to become an officer to risk your life in the line of duty, or do you muster out as a Private and stay alive for the time being? Choices. Choices. And risks. This is the essence of Classic Traveller character generation.

I hope that these few arguments would make you think again about the reasoning behind these seemingly arbitrary mechanics.

Quote from: Arduin;710651Because it is unnecessary.  It is more attractive to those who like solo play rather than RP.  It shows nothing about the game as each GM runs a different game and the chargen rules can't capture that at all.

I am all about roleplay and immerssion; I don't even know what you mean buy solo play. Are there really people that play rpgs solo?

In any event, its not a big deal that some like what traveller does and others do not. Preferences vary.

Quote from: Bill;710822I don't even know what you mean buy solo play.

Play, entertainment, etc.  Reread your comments where YOU talk about it.

Quote from: Arduin;710853Play, entertainment, etc.  Reread your comments where YOU talk about it.

I reread my posts in this thread and see nothing about playing rpgs solo.

You were the one that said mentioned solo play, would you clarify your point?

Quote from: golan2072;710818My thoughts on dying in CT chargen:

A common complaint about Classic Traveller is that characters can die during character generation. At the surface of it, it looks like a very strong and robust complaint - why should character generation be based on chance rather than the player's choice, and why should a character die even before starting the game?

However, there are actually good reasons to follow this controversial, and lethal, rule.

First of all, Classic Traveller game starts not after character generation, but rather at the beginning of character generation. It is a mini-game all by itself - a game of chance, if you will. And like all gambles, it has its own thrill in it. Will your character survive multiple terms of combat as a Marine? Will you muster out a General, or, alternatively, finish your career at a state funeral reserved to military heroes? Go on, gamble!

Another thing to keep in mind is that, as long as you stick to Book 1 and Supplement 4, Classic Traveller character generation is FAST. VERY FAST. Once you know the system well, generating a character takes a mere five minutes. So even if your character dies, you don't lose much time - in fact, you've only played a little game of dice for several moments, no harm done.

But the real reasons for the chances for character death in Classic Traveller character generation are twofold: from a setting perspective and from a game-mechanics perspective.

From a setting perspective, a military career, especially in actual combat service (when you can learn all these nifty combat skills), is a risky thing. Combat is no picnic, after all. You don't earn combat experience by sitting behind a desk, but rather by shooting and being shot at. Soldiers die in many cases; that is the nature of war. And the game reflects that.

From a game-mechanics perspective, keep in mind that Classic Traveller - like most versions of Traveller - uses the 2d6 curve for task resolution. This curve is highly sensitive to modifiers, so even a mere +1 is significant; high skill levels will skew the curve much towards the character's favor, and thus are highly valuable. The chance of death during character generation, therefore, exists in order to make higher skills rarer and more valuable. Otherwise, why not just stick in, say, the Scouts for terms and terms on no end and have a character with Pilot-5? This presents the player with a choice: do you muster out now alive but with a smaller amount of skills, or risk a certain chance of death in the line of duty to earn better combat experience? Are you determined enough to become an officer to risk your life in the line of duty, or do you muster out as a Private and stay alive for the time being? Choices. Choices. And risks. This is the essence of Classic Traveller character generation.

I hope that these few arguments would make you think again about the reasoning behind these seemingly arbitrary mechanics.

This is probably the best post on the subject. Generally I know as a Player and GM, usually terms limits will be used to lesser the chance pilot-5 or such skills in non- "death in chargen" games.

Quote from: golan2072;710818From a setting perspective, a military career, especially in actual combat service (when you can learn all these nifty combat skills), is a risky thing. Combat is no picnic, after all. You don't earn combat experience by sitting behind a desk, but rather by shooting and being shot at. Soldiers die in many cases; that is the nature of war. And the game reflects that.

What Book 2 (or S4) could have used was a pentatlon athlete career. Shooting, swimming, fencing, horse riding, running, and physical stat increases combined with (relatively) low risk. Not a bad basis for a Traveller adventurer. ;)


Hans

Quote from: Bill;710860I reread my posts in this thread and see nothing about playing rpgs solo.

Sorry, I can't help you on your comprehension skills.

It struck me that the Traveller chargen is a bit similar, not mechanically but in relation to the larger game, to the 'funnel' in Dungeon Crawl Classics. Just that you're running your zero-levels through one at a time till you get a survivor.
There's a DCC spinoff game being written that claims to be aimed at 70s era hard sci fi. I'd be shocked and dismayed if it didn't maintain that lethal first stage.

Quote from: Bill;710822I am all about roleplay and immerssion; I don't even know what you mean buy solo play. Are there really people that play rpgs solo?

In any event, its not a big deal that some like what traveller does and others do not. Preferences vary.

Some players that didn't have a Traveller group (before they had access to USENET or FIDONET) found ways to play Classic Traveller solo, using the chargen and world system creator and encounter tables and building ships and coding stuff on their early home computers.

Quote from: Simlasa;710886There's a DCC spinoff game being written that claims to be aimed at 70s era hard sci fi. I'd be shocked and dismayed if it didn't maintain that lethal first stage.

That sounds cool.  '70s sci-fi is like its own genre at times.

Quote from: dragoner;710875This is probably the best post on the subject. Generally I know as a Player and GM, usually terms limits will be used to lesser the chance pilot-5 or such skills in non- "death in chargen" games.

Thanks!

Quote from: Arduin;710883Sorry, I can't help you on your comprehension skills.

You are very entertaining :)

I do think, however, that what I wrote above about death in Traveller chargen is true mostly for the three little CT books, as well as Citizens of the Imperium. In the more complex system (i.e. books 4-7 and Mongoose), chargen takes much more time, and thus losing a character to a failed Survival roll is less pleasant. In the three little books, on the other hand, this means you've only lost 5 minutes. No big deal.

The later CT chargen systems also have other downsides such as too granting many skills, which are a bad thing in a game using a simple 2d6 curve for task resolution. You shouldn't have skills above 3 except for rare cases.

Quote from: golan2072;710920The later CT chargen systems also have other downsides such as too granting many skills, which are a bad thing in a game using a simple 2d6 curve for task resolution. You shouldn't have skills above 3 except for rare cases.

Yes true.  I'm working on a version for my group using D20 for the reason that I need more granularity when using Attribute AND Skill input.  MGT has the same flaw.  Also will use 3D6 stats.

(No, I don't like T20 so don't ask)

Quote from: Arduin;710923Yes true.  I'm working on a version for my group using D20 for the reason that I need more granularity when using Attribute AND Skill input.  MGT has the same flaw.  Also will use 3D6 stats.

(No, I don't like T20 so don't ask)

The ideal CT variant would have attribute modifiers of +1/-1 at most and skills usually up to 3.

Quote from: golan2072;710933The ideal CT variant would have attribute modifiers of +1/-1 at most and skills usually up to 3.

Using a 2D6 paradigm, yes.

Quote from: golan2072;710920I do think, however, that what I wrote above about death in Traveller chargen is true mostly for the three little CT books, as well as Citizens of the Imperium. In the more complex system (i.e. books 4-7 and Mongoose), chargen takes much more time, and thus losing a character to a failed Survival roll is less pleasant. In the three little books, on the other hand, this means you've only lost 5 minutes. No big deal.

The later CT chargen systems also have other downsides such as too granting many skills, which are a bad thing in a game using a simple 2d6 curve for task resolution. You shouldn't have skills above 3 except for rare cases.

Yes, by the time of Scouts and Merchant Prince, things get out of hand skill-wise. Which isn't necessarily a big deal if one is playing a more "heroic" campaign where the adventurers are far above standard; but it does not mix well with the average joe type characters from LBB1 or S4.

Quote from: dragoner;710972Yes, by the time of Scouts and Merchant Prince, things get out of hand skill-wise.

Not if you observe the 'maximum number of skills and skill levels may not exceed INT + EDU' rule.

Characters produced by Book 4, 5, 6 and 7 reach that limit sooner than characters generated by Book 1 and Supplement 4; this means that advanced chargen characters may muster out sooner, but they also tend to face more survival throws each term than basic characters, so the longer they stay in their respective services, the more likely it is they won't make it to mustering out, same as basic characters.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;710984Not if you observe the 'maximum number of skills and skill levels may not exceed INT + EDU' rule.

Characters produced by Book 4, 5, 6 and 7 reach that limit sooner than characters generated by Book 1 and Supplement 4; this means that advanced chargen characters may muster out sooner, but they also tend to face more survival throws each term than basic characters, so the longer they stay in their respective services, the more likely it is they won't make it to mustering out, same as basic characters.

Assuming INT and EDU of 7 (average), that means that a character may have up to 14 skill points total. In Book 1 chargen characters muster out with an average of 4-6 skill points, well below this limit. Reaching this limit means almost five skills at 3, while more than one skill at 3 could be considered overpowered by Book 1 terms.

Usually a few skills at 1 and one or two at most at 3 would be enough for a well-rounded CT-LBB1 character.

Quote from: golan2072;710985Assuming INT and EDU of 7 (average), that means that a character may have up to 14 skill points total.

The rule is 'skills and skill points,' so a skill costs two points against INT + EDU - one for the skill itself and one for the first skill level.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;710984Not if you observe the 'maximum number of skills and skill levels may not exceed INT + EDU' rule.

Characters produced by Book 4, 5, 6 and 7 reach that limit sooner than characters generated by Book 1 and Supplement 4; this means that advanced chargen characters may muster out sooner, but they also tend to face more survival throws each term than basic characters, so the longer they stay in their respective services, the more likely it is they won't make it to mustering out, same as basic characters.

Sure, though I am talking more of the "feel" of the campaign, the advanced chargen chars come with medals and tales of exploits etc, that the LBB1 schmoes don't. I mentioned in another thread, I had a lot of fun in a campaign with just a one term army vet, rifle-1, vacc-1 (GM fiat) studying for his mech-1 while working on the Leviathan as a redshirt. IIRC he was killed by the regressed colony cannibals, going down as a right bastard, taking quite a few with him (grenades are your friend). In his time he shone so very bright and he didn't need any MCG's from LBB4.

After a brief 5 minute period of mourning by all involved (and piss break), I then rolled up a new guy, an ancient scout (he was over 40 !!!) who met up with the expedition and who had been stranded in the Belgardian Sojourn.

I'm thinking of starting just a rock bottom basic CT pbp here, using the free starter trav as the main source document, as an instructional/experiment.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;710890Some players that didn't have a Traveller group (before they had access to USENET or FIDONET) found ways to play Classic Traveller solo, using the chargen and world system creator and encounter tables and building ships and coding stuff on their early home computers.

Because nobody and I mean nobody ever tried to form their own game group during that time.

Quote from: dragoner;710991Sure, though I am talking more of the "feel" of the campaign, the advanced chargen chars come with medals and tales of exploits etc, that the LBB1 schmoes don't.

That's a failure of imagination on the part of the players and referee.

Your basic Army character made his survival roll by one or two? Give him a combat service ribbon. He made the survival roll exactly? Give him a Purple Heart as well. Was he promoted the same term? Give him an MCUF. Was he serving as an officer that term? Give him a combat command ribbon.

This ain't rocket surgery.*


*Rocket surgery requires Engineering-3 or better.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;710990The rule is 'skills and skill points,' so a skill costs two points against INT + EDU - one for the skill itself and one for the first skill level.

Ouch. If that's accurate, that's quite restrictive. Double-dinging someone for not only having the skill itself, but for the number of skill levels acquired.

Easy rule to misunderstand/overlook. And, from what I recall it morphed in MegaTraveller - the cap was simply the total number of skill levels.

Quote from: jeff37923;710992Because nobody and I mean nobody ever tried to form their own game group during that time.

Correct.  I remember the laws against that kind of activity way back then. :jaw-dropping:

Quote from: Black Vulmea;710990The rule is 'skills and skill points,' so a skill costs two points against INT + EDU - one for the skill itself and one for the first skill level.

That's a possible interpretation, I have to admit, but not one I've ever run into before. I've always seen it as skill-n counted as n. Without actually checking, I'm also ready to say that at least some official NPCs offend against the stricter interpretation. I could be wrong, though.

In any case I houseruled that restriction p.d.q..


Hans

Quote from: Black Vulmea;710996That's a failure of imagination on the part of the players and referee.

Your basic Army character made his survival roll by one or two? Give him a combat service ribbon. He made the survival roll exactly? Give him a Purple Heart as well. Was he promoted the same term? Give him an MCUF. Was he serving as an officer that term? Give him a combat command ribbon.

This ain't rocket surgery.*


*Rocket surgery requires Engineering-3 or better.

Maybe med-3 as well. As much as I loved LBB4, mine fell apart; there was something cool about the two line average schmoes non-heroic campaign material, just simple get it done chargen and play with about one quarter of the dice rolls in chargen from the advanced.

Quote from: jeff37923;710992Because nobody and I mean nobody ever tried to form their own game group during that time.

At my school, we had two Traveller groups play CT, plus at least another outside.

Quote from: K Peterson;711004If that's accurate, that's quite restrictive.

Will you take Marc Miller's word for it?

Quote from: The Traveller Book, p. 29, "Other Skills"Maximum Skills: As a general rule of thumb, a character may have no more skills (or total of levels of skills) than the sum of his or her intelligence and education. For example, a character with UPP 77894A would be restricted to a total of 13 combined skills and levels of skills. This restriction does not apply to level-0 skills. (emphasis added - BV)

One of my house rules provides a character +1 EDU in place of a skill if a skill is earned in that term/year and the character is at maximum allowable skills and levels.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;711027Will you take Marc Miller's word for it?

Well, of course. If I'd had my Traveller Book at work I would have looked it up, myself. I must have had MT on the brain, or misread the rule.

Quote from: dragoner;711021[T]here was something cool about the two line average schmoes non-heroic campaign material, just simple get it done chargen and play with about one quarter of the dice rolls in chargen from the advanced.

I don't find anything onerous about advanced versus basic chargen.

The larger point is that there's a great deal of past experience that can be inferred by paying attention to the rolls of the dice for even those "two line average schmoes."

Quote from: K Peterson;711028I must have had MT on the brain, or misread the rule.

It was often overlooked or ignored in my experience, and led to the litany of complaints about how borked basic chargen characters are compared to their advanced counterparts. As is so often the case in roleplaying games, discarding a rule, by omission or commission, without understanding why it's there can lead to funky results.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;711038I don't find anything onerous about advanced versus basic chargen.

The larger point is that there's a great deal of past experience that can be inferred by paying attention to the rolls of the dice for even those "two line average schmoes."

Sure, and I like the advanced chargen games, except for that they don't mix as well skill-wise as with the basic chargen having more and different skills.

Quote from: dragoner;711050Sure, and I like the advanced chargen games, except for that they don't mix as well skill-wise as with the basic chargen having more and different skills.

More diversity of skills, yes - one of the problems with the later books was unnecessary skill bloat - but that has its own drawbacks: advanced characters with niche skills rather than the broader skills of basic characters. A basic merchant with Admin-3 is more effective than an advanced merchant with Legal-1, Broker-1, and Trader-1, frex.

But as I already established up thread, if a character has x INT and y EDU, then she'll have x + y skills and skill levels, regardless of whether she's generated by basic or advanced chargen, so they don't get more skills overall.

I have no problem running basic characters alongside advanced characters. I blend the different chargen systems to give flavor to my TU; frex, a free trader or a merchant aboard a subbie is generated as a basic character, but a merchant working for a subsector, sector, or Imperial line is generated using advanced chargen. A character who serves in his planetary navy uses basic chargen, while a character who serves in the subsector or Imperial navies uses advanced chargen.

I also mix and match options from GDW and third-party resources. Characters who attend the merchant academy get reserve naval ranks, as in Paranoia Press' Merchants & Merchandise, frex. Characters can also change careers per the guidelines in "Filling in Skills" from Dragon 55. Any character can attempt to go to college, technical school, graduate school -all from Challenge 29 or medical school before attempting a career.

For me, one of the great strengths of Traveller is that the core game is robust enough to handle all sorts of tinkering.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;711139I have no problem running basic characters alongside advanced characters.

How do you handle the fact that generally the basic characters get 1-2 skills/levels per term and the advanced get up to 4-5 per term?

Quote from: dragoner;711144How do you handle the fact that generally the basic characters get 1-2 skills/levels per term and the advanced get up to 4-5 per term?

What's to handle? Again, advanced chargen means characters hit their skills plus skills levels limit sooner - and again, assuming they make multiple survival rolls in a term (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=710984&postcount=86) - and muster out; because they muster out sooner, advanced characters end up with fewer benefits than basic characters.

Christ on a stick, dragoner, for someone who acts like some sort of Traveller savant, your understanding of the game is remarkably superficial.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;711151What's to handle?

No matter the limit, the advanced chargen types wind up with more skills (about 2.5:1.5), even if they hit the limit quicker, and to equal it out, the basic chargen characters wind up geriatric.

I'm seeing what you are doing, I know what I do, being a player and GM - usually we have to add extra skills.

Quote from: dragoner;711168No matter the limit, the advanced chargen types wind up with more skills (about 2.5:1.5), even if they hit the limit quicker, and to equal it out, the basic chargen characters wind up geriatric.

You conveniently ignore the fact that skills ding the INT + EDU limit, and that skill diversity makes it even more likely burn through available skills and skill levels.

You also ignore the balancing mechanism of survival rolls, which advanced characters may make two or three times more often than basic characters each term. And you ignore the effect on mustering out benefits, while resorting to the "geriatrics" argument - an example of the kinds of criticisms I expect from dismissive twinks on Big Purple - while also ignoring that the TU is a place with anagathics and rejuvenation therapies (JTAS 19, "Gerontology, Rejuvenation, and the Interstellar Traveller").

Quote from: dragoner;711168I'm seeing what you are doing, I know what I do, being a player and GM - usually we have to add extra skills.

I see what you're doing, too.

INT + EDU is relevant only if you get enough skills to hit that limit. (The Instruction skill added in Mercenary allows more rapid acquisition than the original experience rules.)

I once did a very rough statistical analysis of advanced chargen systems, which confirmed the impression from experience that they were yielding characters with more skill levels in total -- and often with higher levels when some aspects such as special schools kicked in. If memory serves, MegaTraveller retrofitted some of that trend into the basic methods.

My own variant was to make a list of swap-in alternatives for skills rolled in basic, mainly to incorporate skills introduced in later Books.

My group made a bunch of Traveller characters tonight for my upcoming Traveller game.

We had two fatalities, out of 8 chargens, and both PCs were awesome: a hard-ass bounty hunter and a sleazy, corrupt politician.

I can confirm that the deaths were entertaining for the group and made the gambling, push-your luck element of chargen exciting.

Quote from: Planet Algol;711381I can confirm that the deaths were entertaining for the group and made the gambling, push-your luck element of chargen exciting.

Yey!

Quote from: Phillip;711277INT + EDU is relevant only if you get enough skills to hit that limit. (The Instruction skill added in Mercenary allows more rapid acquisition than the original experience rules.)

I once did a very rough statistical analysis of advanced chargen systems, which confirmed the impression from experience that they were yielding characters with more skill levels in total -- and often with higher levels when some aspects such as special schools kicked in. If memory serves, MegaTraveller retrofitted some of that trend into the basic methods.

My own variant was to make a list of swap-in alternatives for skills rolled in basic, mainly to incorporate skills introduced in later Books.

Not to mention that the skill rolls can be used to increase stats as well. Most GM's I know, just limit it to one system or another to avoid using band-aids on the basic chargen characters; it is a known issue though.

IIRC, megatrav did change it some, don't know how much.

Quote from: Planet Algol;711381My group made a bunch of Traveller characters tonight for my upcoming Traveller game.

We had two fatalities, out of 8 chargens, and both PCs were awesome: a hard-ass bounty hunter and a sleazy, corrupt politician.

I can confirm that the deaths were entertaining for the group and made the gambling, push-your luck element of chargen exciting.

That is really cool.

Quote from: dragoner;711475That is really cool.

It really is. You can't really be mad when a Traveller character dies in chargen; it's usually just something that results in some uproarious laughter and some teasing. :)

Yeah, with the politician we were already laughing.
1st term, streetwise and bribery. "Haha, this guy is sleazy"
2nd term, forgery, "This guy is totally corrupt!"
3rd term, failed survival roll "Bwahahaha, looks like all his underhanded dealings caught up with him!"

And the politician character that does survive is to be watched out for, which is even cool.  Depending on the edition of the game.

Except for one TCS campaign, every Traveller campaign and one-shot adventure I've been involved in as a player or as a referee has been a blend of roleplaying and gaming, and none of the gaming was wargaming.


Hans

...Sooo earlier this week (Sunday, actually...), the boy suddenly decides he wants to play in a science-fiction RPG. I offered up Star Wars, and Star Trek as well, but the boy had something else in mind, and asked if I had any other future games with spaceships in it to try.

So I whipped out the little black books and had him roll up a character...

Young Luke Skywalker rolls up a strength of 5, just a bit more End, and of course INT of 4, Soc of 6, and an EDU of 2...  lovely first character. Drops out of school in the 3rd grade, and decides he want to become a SPACE MARINE.

No offense intended to the GW folks out there, but we were creating SPACE MARINES before GW even existed, so I can't really recognize that as a trade mark for them....

...anyway, the boy fails the enlistment roll and his character Luke, is promptly drafted in the MERCHANT SERVICE. I told the boy because his character was not really strong, and because he had dropped out of school in the 3rd grade, the Space Marines didn't want him, because they only wanted THE BEST.

Before young Luke is drafted though, he makes a bid to enter COLLEGE but is DENIED...

First term in young Luke draws an assignment in the DECK department on a starship conducting an EXPLORATORY TRADE mission. He rolls a 3 on his survival roll. I'm pretty sure no one even bothered to tell young Luke that he shouldn't cycle the airlock without first putting on a vacc suit.

He's mercilessly sucked out into space and lives in the glory of true starlight for a few short minutes before expiring.

Then we rolled up another character... and this one actually survived... With this one, the boy also wanted to be a SPACE MARINE, but failed the enlistment roll, and also failed to gain admission to college...

Zenton Mars    - MERCHANT

STR 11                                    
DEX 5                                      
END 7                                      
INT 5                                        
EDU 6                                      
SOC 4                                      
                                               
SKILLS
Engineering - 2
Gambling - 1
Carousing - 1
Vacc Suit - 1
Gravitics - 1
Computer - 1


Yr 1 Assignment Deck - Exploratory Trade
Yr 2 Route (Sword Worlds)
Yr 3 Exploratory Trade
Yr 4 Route (Sword Worlds)
Successfully re-enlisted for a 2nd term, Switched to Engineering Dept.
Yr 5 Exploratory Trade
Yr 6 Route (Sword Worlds)
Yr 7 Route (Sword Worlds)
Yr 8 Engineering Dept. Training (Zenton failed three of four engineering coursing, but did manage to pick up Computer -1 skills here.

He declined an opportunity to re-enlist here, and mustered out on his home world with 80,000 cr cash and a High Passage.


EQUIPMENT
Blade
Vacc Suit
Combat Armor TL 10
Tent
Long Range Communicator
Cold Weather Clothing
Mechanical Tool Set
Tracked ATV
Disguise Kit
Body Pistol +12 rds ammo

ASSETS
One High Passage Ticket
16,460 Cr


HOMEWORLD
Caladbolg, Sword Worlds Subsector, Spinward Marches sector
B365775
Notes: Type B Starport, TL 10, Imperial Scout Base Present, Rich, Industrial World 3,565 Miles in Diameter, with a standard atmosphere, 84% gravity, and 50% covered in water.

==========================================


Looks like this Thanksgiving Holiday is going to feature some new interesting adventures, considering this is the Spinward Marches just weeks before the beginning of the FIFTH FRONTIER WAR. This morning the boy took the Traveller Classic Hardbound in his backpack to school with him...

Quote from: Zachary The First;711482It really is. You can't really be mad when a Traveller character dies in chargen; it's usually just something that results in some uproarious laughter and some teasing. :)

And they are good to be recycled into the NPC files; waste not, want not.

Trav's chargen mini game is great though, as GameDaddy's recent go through shows.

I've never played Traveller but I've read through the Mongoose Intro book.

I'm reading on this forum that there's no character advancement. Why would anyone bow out from their terms early to go adventuring if they can't advance their skills/attributes any longer? Would this mean you are better off going off adventuring when your character is 38 rather than if he's, say, 26?

Like I said, I've never played it, so I'm probably mistaken.

Quote from: Endless Flight;711770I've never played Traveller but I've read through the Mongoose Intro book.

I'm reading on this forum that there's no character advancement. Why would anyone bow out from their terms early to go adventuring if they can't advance their skills/attributes any longer? Would this mean you are better off going off adventuring when your character is 38 rather than if he's, say, 26?

Like I said, I've never played it, so I'm probably mistaken.

There is advancement, but I don't think many GM's follow the rules for it; and the reason it is better to muster out earlier is that at age 34 and beyond, you have to roll to maintain your stats versus degradation through aging.

"When a character reaches 34 years of age (the end of the fourth
term of service) aging begins to take its toll. The aging table must
be consulted then, and thereafter at four year intervals. This table
shows each of the characteristics affected, and the throws
necessary to avoid the effects of aging. If a specific throw is failed,
then the reduction indicated is applied to the characteristic."
-Starter Traveller, pg 11

Quote from: Endless Flight;711770Would this mean you are better off going off adventuring when your character is 38 rather than if he's, say, 26?

Yes. In the sense that an older character is likely to have accumulated more skills and more mustering out benefits than a younger character. (Though you are gambling against failing survival rolls, or suffering the debilitating effects of aging the more terms a character pursues).

There is character advancement, but in some Traveller rules sets it is very gradual.

RPGNow has this sale on the Mongoose version. If you pay $41 you get the PDF and the black and white book. Is this the same hardcover that the Mongoose website sells? It seems like a reasonable deal.

I'm interested in the game after reading their intro book.

I like the mongoose core, I just have the pdf though, sounds like a decent deal.

Marc Miller is also giving away Starter Traveller away for free: http://www.rpgnow.com/product/80190/CT-ST-Starter-Traveller

Mong is an updated version of classic in many ways.

Quote from: Endless Flight;711778RPGNow has this sale on the Mongoose version. If you pay $41 you get the PDF and the black and white book. Is this the same hardcover that the Mongoose website sells? It seems like a reasonable deal.

I'm interested in the game after reading their intro book.

Yes, it's the same book Mongoose sells on their own site.

Quote from: Arduin;710206That's why God invented GM's.  The GM simply states a term level limit for a given game...  Pretty simple señor.

The freedom to keep going but with the risk of losing it all, the gamble, makes it much more interesting than a GM just putting a unilateral limit.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;712070The freedom to keep going but with the risk of losing it all, the gamble, makes it much more interesting than a GM just putting a unilateral limit.

RPGPundit

Give the man a cigar.  You, sir, have nailed it exactly.

MOST wargames have an element of the gamble in them.  That's a good part of the fun.  I get that not everybody likes it, but for shit's sake that doesn't make it "wrong" or "bad."

Quote from: Old Geezer;712418Give the man a cigar.  You, sir, have nailed it exactly.

MOST wargames have an element of the gamble in them.  That's a good part of the fun.  I get that not everybody likes it, but for shit's sake that doesn't make it "wrong" or "bad."

Quite right; and it makes character creation into something of an art form, at least in the sense of trying to "know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em".

RPGPundit