Just picked up the three Traveller 5 PDFs at Bundle of Holding for $17.95, which is a great value since the retail price is $69.00. This isn't the Mongoose version, rather, it's the huge tome that Marc Miller created in 2012 and later split into three separate books. A total of 888 pages.
This had been on my radar for a while. I've got Classic Traveller, MegaTravller, Gurps Traveller, and both editions of Mongoose Traveller, so it's not like I needed this. But this is probably as cheap as it's ever going to get. I've read strong criticism of T5 on other forums, and at a first glance, I can see why. Although I've only spent an hour skimming through the first book, there are some weird design choices.
First is the organization. The first book is Characters and Combat, which opens with A Brief History of the Universe, a primer on the Third Imperium. Normally, I'd expect this in Book 3: Worlds and Adventures, but I guess they put it here for context. Next, a section on The Foundations of the Traveller Universe which explains the sci-fi parameters of Trav: no FTL comms, jumps take one week, contragrav, etc. Then how dice work, then money, then distance in the game, then hex codes, terrain hexes... wait, I thought this was about characters?
It's not until page 46 that we actually get to characters. There are 13 careers. Looks like Army and Marines are combined into Soldier, and Navy is now Spacer? Bureaucrat is now Functionary? Then right after the 13 is "Land Grants" which made me think it was a 14th career. But no, it's a reward your character can get from a government. I think there should have been a new section heading, maybe Rewards? But then it goes into Aging so I don't know.
Core Concepts starts on page 120, which is basically task resolution. This is not an easy read. I think the task resolution basically works like this:
1. GM determines difficulty (1d6 = hard, 2d6 = normal, 3d6 = Hard)
2. Player rolls Xd6
3. Success if roll <= Att + Skill
There's all sorts of specifics that I won't get into, like hasty vs cautious, and difficulties that go up to 9d (beyond impossible. Don't ask me how that works.)
---
So are there any good parts?
I like the style. I think Miller was trying to evoke the old Classic Traveller feel. Everything is B&W. There are small art pieces, but they are more like simple illustrations and icons. It looks better than Mongoose 1E, and I like the B&W retro feel better than Mongoose 2E's full-color.
Forms! Remember those? Brings back memories of the old days. And tables. And formulas, which make it feel a bit like a physics textbook. That's not a bad thing—it's got a Looks Boring But It's Actually Cool quality to it.
There's a lot here for the price. A LOT. This is probably the most complete sci-fi game I've ever seen. For example, there are pages on how sight, smell, and hearing work. Pages on the dynamics of social interaction. Pages on military explosions, WMDs, and nukes. Will I ever use this stuff? I don't know, but it's a neat read.
---
I never made it to Combat, since I know I will never play T5 due to the core mechanic. I've played a campaign with a 2d6 roll-under core mech and hated it. Which is weird, since I like 3d6 roll-under core mechs, but for some reason 2d6 was awful. I've also tried a core mechanic somewhat like T5's: a roll-under with 2d10/3d10/4d10. The higher yields/granularity make it work better. (Guess the game-- it's very obscure!)
So I'm sticking with Mongoose (for Traveller) or Stars Without Number (for almost Traveller.) I don't regret buying T5, but for now it's relegated to the same space as Gurps Traveller—a cool read, but I'll probably never play it.
As usual. One of my local players has it. Had a glance at it and was not al that impressed. I prefer the feel of early Traveller.
Quote from: Aglondir on August 15, 2022, 12:54:47 AMCore Concepts starts on page 120, which is basically task resolution. This is not an easy read. I think the task resolution basically works like this:
1. GM determines difficulty (1d6 = hard, 2d6 = normal, 3d6 = Hard)
2. Player rolls Xd6
3. Success if roll <= Att + Skill
Wow. That is an absolutely terrible resolution mechanic. I would have to work hard to make one that is worse.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 15, 2022, 12:22:32 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on August 15, 2022, 12:54:47 AMCore Concepts starts on page 120, which is basically task resolution. This is not an easy read. I think the task resolution basically works like this:
1. GM determines difficulty (1d6 = hard, 2d6 = normal, 3d6 = Hard)
2. Player rolls Xd6
3. Success if roll <= Att + Skill
Wow. That is an absolutely terrible resolution mechanic. I would have to work hard to make one that is worse.
The scary thing is that in one of the T5 versions is the mathematical proof of why it works. It is brilliant, but it is also the writing of Abdul Al-Hazred. I only lost a little sanity to that counter intuitive mess by washing my eyes with the Classic Traveller LBBs.
It's too bad Marc Miller has chosen to go this route. I loved Classic Traveller, and the adventures that he wrote for Space 1889. An excellent, brilliant designer. What Marc fails to grasp is that we don't need more rules. What we need more of is: adventure hooks, maps, worlds, cool equipment and gewgaws that we can reward players with, and any other thing that we can slap down in the middle of our campaign when we haven't had time to write an adventure or prepare for the next game.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 15, 2022, 12:48:04 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 15, 2022, 12:22:32 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on August 15, 2022, 12:54:47 AMCore Concepts starts on page 120, which is basically task resolution. This is not an easy read. I think the task resolution basically works like this:
1. GM determines difficulty (1d6 = hard, 2d6 = normal, 3d6 = Hard)
2. Player rolls Xd6
3. Success if roll <= Att + Skill
Wow. That is an absolutely terrible resolution mechanic. I would have to work hard to make one that is worse.
The scary thing is that in one of the T5 versions is the mathematical proof of why it works. It is brilliant, but it is also the writing of Abdul Al-Hazred. I only lost a little sanity to that counter intuitive mess by washing my eyes with the Classic Traveller LBBs.
Jeff,
I think that may be in the appendix to Book 1. There are tables of the percentage distributions for 2d6 to 10d6.
One idea I like is the Flux, Good Flux, and Bad Flux mechanic. All of them use 2d6.
Quote from: T5Flux. Roll one die, then a second die and subtract it from the first. This roll is the same as D-D, but renamed for easier identification. For less confusion, use a light colored die and a dark die; always subtract dark from light.
Good Flux. Roll two dice: subtract the smaller from the larger value (if both dice are equal, the result is zero). This roll produces a range from 0 to + 5.
Bad Flux. Roll two dice: subtract the larger from the smaller value (if both dice are equal, the result is zero). This roll produced a range from 0 to - 5
Not sure how I would use that, but it looks like it might have potential for something.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 15, 2022, 12:48:04 PMThe scary thing is that in one of the T5 versions is the mathematical proof of why it works.
I'd like to see that. I'm sure the system works mathematically, but it utterly fails logistically. Having the DM tell the player how many dice to roll for every single action would seriously drag the game down. Especially when you're dealing with 10 or more characters on a side.
I 100% agree with Svenhelgrim that the best way to go would be a cleaned up of T1 with tons of extra [usable] campaign material.
Can't comment on the game as a whole, but I can see the reason behind how the book is ordered. How are you supposed to know what type of character to make until you understand the setting he will be operating in? This is always a bit of a conundrum for me when writing a game - it seems like everything needs to be first,
I don't usually do Traveller, but when I do, it won't be this version.
Quote from: Mishihari on August 15, 2022, 08:52:16 PMHow are you supposed to know what type of character to make until you understand the setting he will be operating in?
You don't, you just roll it up.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on August 15, 2022, 11:57:37 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on August 15, 2022, 08:52:16 PMHow are you supposed to know what type of character to make until you understand the setting he will be operating in?
You don't, you just roll it up.
Without context, you might think that your retired scout character had spent 20+ years flying through space selling & delivering cookies.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 15, 2022, 12:48:04 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 15, 2022, 12:22:32 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on August 15, 2022, 12:54:47 AMCore Concepts starts on page 120, which is basically task resolution. This is not an easy read. I think the task resolution basically works like this:
1. GM determines difficulty (1d6 = hard, 2d6 = normal, 3d6 = Hard)
2. Player rolls Xd6
3. Success if roll <= Att + Skill
Wow. That is an absolutely terrible resolution mechanic. I would have to work hard to make one that is worse.
The scary thing is that in one of the T5 versions is the mathematical proof of why it works. It is brilliant, but it is also the writing of Abdul Al-Hazred. I only lost a little sanity to that counter intuitive mess by washing my eyes with the Classic Traveller LBBs.
It is actually a fairly simple system. That odd Metamorphosis Alpha one-shot RPG used a similar idea and I've seen it on a rare few other games. One variation is players roll Xd6 where x is difficulty and the DM might roll as well as a counter.
Main thing is like many other RPGs. It puts the onus of determining what constitutes a difficulty on the DM. With examples. But its still up to the DM to puzzle out what when and where.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 15, 2022, 11:36:40 PM
I don't usually do Traveller, but when I do, it won't be this version.
HappyDaze,
Have you played Traveller before? If so, which version do you prefer?
Quote from: Aglondir on August 16, 2022, 01:54:47 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 15, 2022, 11:36:40 PM
I don't usually do Traveller, but when I do, it won't be this version.
HappyDaze,
Have you played Traveller before? If so, which version do you prefer?
I have. I played a few early versions, but rarely for long (I didn't run it). I dug into New Era for the setting changes, but the rules were horrible. I tried the d20 version (again, only as a player) and didn't like it. Played a bit of Mongoose 1e, and it was tolerable but nothing great. Own pdf of a few Mongoose 2e, but really have no strong desire to play or run it. As I said, I don't often do Traveller...
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 16, 2022, 12:02:30 AM
Without context, you might think that your retired scout character had spent 20+ years flying through space selling & delivering cookies.
Pretty much really, by 1100 the Imperium is pretty well explored and scouts mostly update survey data and carry mail.
Anyhow I bought into T5 very early on when it was first offered and promised by August of that same year. About three years later the CD came in the mail. I was disappointed to see that it wasn't playable at that time. A few years later they did a kickstarter promising the big book. Eventually I got my big book, signed by Marc Miller and I got all excited and tried to work with the tools and run it and there were a lot of problems. Then they did 5.09 which made things much worse and failed to fix many obvious problems. I never even ordered 5.1 but I did look over a friend's copy.
Nobody wanted to love T5 more than I did. My personal bugbear is that large animals with horns still are better anti-tank weapons than heavy plasma cannons. I kid you not armour penetrating damage dice equal to strength on critters with 5d strength is crazy.
So, T5 is an amazing thing. There are parts of it that are very good. The scope of it is breathtaking. But damnit if there was ever a task system that needed half dice this was it. Difficulties in dice are too chunky and mixing them with modifiers is a nightmare. If Marc wanted to please Traveller fans he'd have stuck with 2d and modifiers with ascending target numbers. There are many places where there's too much information or the information is vaguely useless like all the additional armour values and the damage types that only affect the armour rating. It's just screwy.
I should probably add that while the roll under system is counter intuitive and not to my taste, there is some gold in those books. I love how T5 handles extended star system generation and the additions to starship design are simply fabu.
Sadly, T5 is to CT what Jazz Odyssey is to Spinal Tap.
To my mind the mistakes made in T5 are:
1. failure to unify the task system. If you're doing nd6, do nd6 and limit modifiers. Put a 1d+1d3 or 1d + 2 and 2d + 1d3 or 2d +2 step in and ditch the modifiers. That or do 2d6 and alter character creation to fit the range because 2d6 doesn't work with stat + skill. Personally I want the first one but pick and stick already.
2. failure to explain adequately. This has improved since 5.0 but it has bloated the books. My own opinion is that 5.0 really just needed a paragraph here and there and a second mention of the skills + knowledges mechanic earlier in the book as it only shows up in the skills chapter but is vital to character creation.
3. failure to cross reference. If a table is needed for a career, like the medals and fame tables, the page should be referenced on the career's page so you don't spend forever chasing it down in the 600 page book.
4. abstract combat. The problem with the 5.0 combat system is that it was a very abstract process not a narrative one. The STAMP sequence was just the order things are resolved in not the order they happen in. Anyhow, personally the rules should have been a functional tactical wargame but that's mainly because it's easier to abstract and ignore things than it is to introduce things that aren't there. Also, there are too many armour values and some of them seem a bit nonsensical. Most weapons hit armour anyhow.
5. failure to include functional objects. The core ships and races should have been covered in the core book. The new one fixes this but honestly, there's plenty of wasted pages that could have been used to get these things in there. I realize Marc intended to do a Third Imperium book but waiting another ten years seems unreasonable to me.
6. editing failures. There's just a ton of little errors that make things difficult to use that don't get explained and are hard to see if you don't actively work with the makers. The *5 in the range column for "heavy" weapons is never explained, it's not range 5 or x5 but I've got no idea what it means. You can mount an antitank gun on a child's tricycle because weapon mounts don't have bottom limits. Stuff like that. Moose as of 5.1 are still the ultimate antitank weapon but I think he left that one in just to spite me.
Now let's talk about why Traveller is the greatest thing ever and should be the standard going forward!
1. Substructure. The rules for creating everything are right in the core so you shouldn't get power creep and weird artifact builds creeping in going forward.
2. 4 Skills per term. Characters are better rounded and more playable. Yes, a CT skill level is about 2.5 levels in T5.
3. Fame, land grants, universities and other schools, proxy votes, medals, weird stuff like the university name and random secrets table. I think the latest version dropped secrets from the mustering out benefits and that's a shame because it's such a fun concept.
Incidentally, starship creation is basically book2 with so many bells and whistles tacked on that you can hardly see it but really, if you sit down and build a ship and stay away from the other drives and the stage advancement ships are pretty much the same as CT underneath.
Quote from: David Johansen on August 17, 2022, 05:22:25 PM
Now let's talk about why Traveller is the greatest thing ever and should be the standard going forward!
1. Substructure. The rules for creating everything are right in the core so you shouldn't get power creep and weird artifact builds creeping in going forward.
2. 4 Skills per term. Characters are better rounded and more playable. Yes, a CT skill level is about 2.5 levels in T5.
3. Fame, land grants, universities and other schools, proxy votes, medals, weird stuff like the university name and random secrets table. I think the latest version dropped secrets from the mustering out benefits and that's a shame because it's such a fun concept.
Incidentally, starship creation is basically book2 with so many bells and whistles tacked on that you can hardly see it but really, if you sit down and build a ship and stay away from the other drives and the stage advancement ships are pretty much the same as CT underneath.
And those would have made great supplements for CT (well, 2 is a houserule I've had for a while, to emulate the characters from fiction in the backs of S1 and S4). In any case, I'm glad Marc is still creating, even if it's not to my taste.
I think with 5.0 the biggest problem was organizational. You'd need something like the medals table or the skill - knowledge relationship and you couldn't find it. It's not surprising people got frustrated and threw the thing at the wall. But what T5 lacks is the clarity and brevity of CT. T4 had it. Mongoose has it but T5 is everything all at once.
I don't mind the idea of the substructure being in a supplement, say Fire Fusion and Steel but I want it to exist when everything is made so there can be consistency across the line from the beginning.
T4 is actually my favorite Traveller, and I was very unhappy when it was cancelled.
Quote from: David Johansen on August 17, 2022, 06:59:22 PMT4 is actually my favorite Traveller, and I was very unhappy when it was cancelled.
A version I'm not really familiar with, but the things I've heard...cheers! 8)
Were there ever any Traveller novels? I thought for sure there was at least one. But searches have not turned up any.
Also. What edition, of any, were the PC Traveller games using?
Quote from: Omega on August 17, 2022, 07:51:30 PM
Were there ever any Traveller novels? I thought for sure there was at least one. But searches have not turned up any.
Also. What edition, of any, were the PC Traveller games using?
Agent of the Imperium was written by Marc Miller. There are a few others, some for TNE and one for T4, plus a few odds and ends written recently.
The PC games were using Megatraveller IIRC.
TNE had three one of which I read and was okay. To Dream of Chaos, The Death of Wisdom, and I dunno, I only ever saw the two but I keep hearing the third exists. T4 had one, I've got it somewhere, competently written but I can tell you the author never really dug into Traveller mechanics, the ship has shields. I guess it's a competent generic sf adventure that has Traveller written on the cover. Marc Miller's Agent of the Imperium is interesting, expects you to read UWPs and tells you how to do so, features a personality imprint on a data chip as the main character. It's neat and a bit scary. If you thought the Imperium in 40k was evil, this copy of a guy has at least three worlds killed on the page and since there's a copy of the chip on every imperial capital ship, you have to wonder if those were all the instances or just the ones relevant to the plot. I'm not saying the agent was wrong but it certainly paints the Third Imperium in a different light.
Quote from: David Johansen on August 17, 2022, 05:22:25 PM
That or do 2d6 and alter character creation to fit the range because 2d6 doesn't work with stat + skill.
Do you not like the "roll 2d6 >=8" that Mongoose Trav (1E) uses?
Quote from: David Johansen on August 17, 2022, 05:22:25 PM
4 Skills per term. Characters are better rounded and more playable. Yes, a CT skill level is about 2.5 levels in T5.
Nice. Never liked 1 skill per term. My ideal Trav version would be 2 year terms, with the possibility to gain 4 skills per term:
1 is automatic,
1 you might get from an event table,
1 you might get if you are promoted,
1 you might get from a mishap.
Quote from: David Johansen on August 17, 2022, 05:22:25 PM
I think the latest version dropped secrets from the mustering out benefits and that's a shame because it's such a fun concept.
Definitely using Secrets in my next Trav game.
Quote from: rhialto on August 17, 2022, 07:06:31 PM
Quote from: David Johansen on August 17, 2022, 06:59:22 PMT4 is actually my favorite Traveller, and I was very unhappy when it was cancelled.
A version I'm not really familiar with, but the things I've heard...cheers! 8)
An early victim of internet fan rage. But there were some spectacular failures like the first printing of First Survey and the equations in Fire, Fusion, and Steel.
But it does a good job of character creation. It's basically CT with four skills per term and education options. There is this one flaw though, aging isn't bad enough to deter anyone because at four skills per term, attribute boosts can easily keep up with aging losses. Anyhow too many people cheat on aging rolls. That's why my Galaxies In Shadow rules made aging absolute.
The basic starship creation is clean and quick and starship combat works well enough. Personal combat is a bit wonky and giving out 6d armour when most weapons only do 3d or 4d is not the best idea. Rolling the armour or just multiplying by 3 or 4 helps here. The dicepools for things are roughly equivalent to weakend blows and so forth in CT. World generation is world generation. Trade, geeze, I don't even remember but it's probably just a tweaked CT.
Anyhow, the supplements were a mixed bag, Emperor's Arsenal, Pocket Empires, Central Supply Catalog, the hardback combined Mileau Zero / Second Survey, Aliens Archive, and Psionic Institutes are all pretty good. Starships has a lot of flaws and errors in the advanced starship creation rules but at leasst the larger images make the ship illustrations a bit better. Fire Fusion and Steel is really pretty good but it's got fourteen pages of errata and the printer screwed up everylast equation in the book and it's a book full of equations. Emperor's vehicles has no usable game stats at all for anything, just vague descriptors and a chart in the back giving ranges of values tied to the terms. Imperial Starfleets is the rules to Fifth Frontier War and Dark Nebula without counters, or other usable information. I really never quite got how they expected you to use it. Mileau Zero is dull, okay? I'm sorry, it's just a bit boring. The first printing of First Survey messed up all the UWPs somehow. The idea was that there was a set for the players that just gave the phsyical details and a set for the referee that gave the full values. Fun way to do exploration right. Except I'm pretty sure they just printed the player's list twice. I only got the second printing.
The art well, the Elmore pieces in the core are decent enough if nothing too special. The Chris Foss art probably wasn't the greatest idea. I don't know, they're all lovely pieces but the black and white ship images in the core book are too small and dark. And some of the ships are pretty fanciful for Traveller's pragmatic aesthetic. The guy who did Emperor's Vehicles and Emperor's arsenal is decent enough, but he draws people with big heads. So there's that.
I think the biggest complaints people had were the nd6 roll under task system, the entirely necessary half dice therein, the art, the errors, and perhaps, the huge expectations of promises made and broken. Even so, I really think a cleaned up 2.5 could have dealt with some of that. Personally I was just happy to have Traveller back.
Okay, so the thing about 2d6 >= 8 is that at four skills per term you get totals of 12 pretty easily. It works fine with the CT range but T4 and T5 and CT advanced characters really need a broader range. I'm pretty agnostic when it comes to roll high or roll low, honestly but rolling under when totalling dice always feels better than adding stuff to it.
Of course, there's also a larger number of skills in T4 & T5 as well so four skills makes sense there too.
The idea that knowing things you shouldn't is of great value is a wonderful thing.
Also, T5 has rules for Mentats and Face Dancers, which is lovely.
Quote from: Omega on August 17, 2022, 07:51:30 PM
Were there ever any Traveller novels? I thought for sure there was at least one. But searches have not turned up any.
Some Traveller-like books I enjoyed:
The
Vatta's War series by Elizabeth Moon. Reminds me of a Traveller merchant campaign. The notable exception is the existence of ansibles (FTL comms) but it didn't make much of a difference in the first two books (all I read.)
The
Honor Harrington series by David Weber is good inspiration for a Traveller naval campaign. Granted FTL travel is different.
Mongoose has been doing a masterful job of supporting their Traveller line. The Great Rift boxed set is a wonderful product, and I'm looking at Pirates of Drinax and Deepnight Revelation.
As far as I'm concerned, I see no need to try out T5.
Mongoose Traveller has D&D style stat bonuses, D&D style initiative, and skill packages that entirely invalidate the mechanical point of random character creation and had Judge Dredd's Lawgiver doing the same damage as a Hammer's Slammers power gun.. It's dead to me. So, it's not just people who hate T4 and T5 who fan rage. ;)
Quote from: BronzeDragon on August 17, 2022, 09:52:12 PM
Mongoose has been doing a masterful job of supporting their Traveller line. The Great Rift boxed set is a wonderful product, and I'm looking at Pirates of Drinax and Deepnight Revelation.
As far as I'm concerned, I see no need to try out T5.
Pirates of Drinax is one of my favorite RPG products of all time.
Quote from: David Johansen on August 17, 2022, 10:05:43 PM
Mongoose Traveller has D&D style stat bonuses, D&D style initiative, and skill packages that entirely invalidate the mechanical point of random character creation and had Judge Dredd's Lawgiver doing the same damage as a Hammer's Slammers power gun.. It's dead to me. So, it's not just people who hate T4 and T5 who fan rage. ;)
Welcome to the "Nope. Was not impressed with the Mongoose Traveller" Club. 8)
Quote from: Aglondir on August 17, 2022, 09:41:41 PM
Quote from: Omega on August 17, 2022, 07:51:30 PM
Were there ever any Traveller novels? I thought for sure there was at least one. But searches have not turned up any.
Some Traveller-like books I enjoyed:
The Vatta's War series by Elizabeth Moon. Reminds me of a Traveller merchant campaign. The notable exception is the existence of ansibles (FTL comms) but it didn't make much of a difference in the first two books (all I read.)
The Honor Harrington series by David Weber is good inspiration for a Traveller naval campaign. Granted FTL travel is different.
If you're talking traveller-like novels rather than official one, then there are quite a lot. It's a great game for modelling 1960s-1970s spacefaring SF. LBB Traveller is my go-to game for settings like Poul Anderson's Poleseotechnic League or Andre Norton's Solar Queen, Zero Stone, and Moon of Three Rings books.
Quote from: David Johansen on August 17, 2022, 09:34:48 PM
Quote from: rhialto on August 17, 2022, 07:06:31 PM
Quote from: David Johansen on August 17, 2022, 06:59:22 PMT4 is actually my favorite Traveller, and I was very unhappy when it was cancelled.
A version I'm not really familiar with, but the things I've heard...cheers! 8)
An early victim of internet fan rage. But there were some spectacular failures like the first printing of First Survey and the equations in Fire, Fusion, and Steel.
I think the biggest complaints people had were the nd6 roll under task system, the entirely necessary half dice therein, the art, the errors, and perhaps, the huge expectations of promises made and broken. Even so, I really think a cleaned up 2.5 could have dealt with some of that. Personally I was just happy to have Traveller back.
Yes, that all sounds familiar: the only books I had were the core rules and Milieu 0, purchased used off ebay years ago. Gone now, as I must have skimmed them and said "nope, not for me".
Quote from: David Johansen on August 17, 2022, 09:38:54 PM
Okay, so the thing about 2d6 >= 8 is that at four skills per term you get totals of 12 pretty easily. It works fine with the CT range...
Yes, it will generate characters more in line with the fictional characters from S1 and S4. Which is a different style of play, but shows how flexible CT is.
Quote from: David Johansen on August 17, 2022, 09:38:54 PMAlso, T5 has rules for Mentats and Face Dancers, which is lovely.
Now *that* is useful to know: I have my beta T5 somewhere, and will now dig it out. Thanks!
Quote from: David Johansen on August 17, 2022, 10:05:43 PM
Mongoose Traveller has D&D style stat bonuses, D&D style initiative, and skill packages that entirely invalidate the mechanical point of random character creation and had Judge Dredd's Lawgiver doing the same damage as a Hammer's Slammers power gun.. It's dead to me. So, it's not just people who hate T4 and T5 who fan rage. ;)
MgT 2e is another example of not knowing when to leave well enough alone. There might be useful bits here and there, but as an erstwhile fan of MgT 1e , 2e is an affront. Cepheus Engine and its derivatives are much more useful for fans of CT.
Quote from: David Johansen on August 17, 2022, 10:05:43 PM
Mongoose Traveller has D&D style stat bonuses, D&D style initiative, and skill packages that entirely invalidate the mechanical point of random character creation and had Judge Dredd's Lawgiver doing the same damage as a Hammer's Slammers power gun.. It's dead to me. So, it's not just people who hate T4 and T5 who fan rage. ;)
I think that Mongoose Traveller 1st edition is masterful - an incredible successor to Classic Traveller. I have bought extra core rulebooks and give them away to interested people - I will advocate for that version of the game.
I am embarrassed by the crippled version of the Babylon 5 game that Mongoose made for Traveller. To call the effort half-assed is to compliment it. My fan rage is there.
Want to see me get violently drunk? Ask me about everything that went wrong with the Mongoose Traveller 2nd edition playtest. I really fan rage about that. The only good thing to come out of it was Cepheus Engine.
Since I'm not a fan of Traveller's Imperium (or bloat), I tend to roll with Cepheus Engine for my 2d6 sci-fi gaming.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 18, 2022, 06:12:01 AM
I think that Mongoose Traveller 1st edition is masterful - an incredible successor to Classic Traveller. I have bought extra core rulebooks and give them away to interested people - I will advocate for that version of the game.
I am embarrassed by the crippled version of the Babylon 5 game that Mongoose made for Traveller. To call the effort half-assed is to compliment it. My fan rage is there.
My choice as well. As for B5, Traveller was the wrong game engine for that setting. I've never agreed with the claim that Traveller is a generic sci-fi game; it has baked-in assumptions that make it bad choice for a lot of settings. I took a quick look at the B5 books and quickly moved on.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 18, 2022, 06:12:01 AM
Want to see me get violently drunk? Ask me about everything that went wrong with the Mongoose Traveller 2nd edition playtest. I really fan rage about that. The only good thing to come out of it was Cepheus Engine.
I have Gareth's notes about what he would do for a 2E:
Quote from: GH• Armor values need to be better calibrated against the weapons. Low-level armor is pretty pointless; high-level armor should be better to justify its price.
• Clarify how changing specialty in a career works.
• Clarify Law Level.
• Clarify 'Weapon' and 'Armor' benefits so people aren't running around in Battle Dress with PGMPs from the start.
• Give up on the pretence that the core rulebook is going to be a generic sci-fi system - the careers and skills can easily be used in different settings, but using Traveller's spacecraft assumptions in other settings is absurd.
• Psionics are overpriced.
• Revise the skill list, culling the ones that aren't ever used.
• Space combat and turrets also need fixing because of the changes to that mechanic.
• The computer rules (especially the expert/intellect) material suffers from a lack of space.
• The current Dodging and Initiative rules are both patches over where the Timing/Effect system got ripped out.
• Vehicle damage could be done better; the interaction between spacecraft-scale action and personal scale is clunky.
For 2E, I would have been happy with 1E
+ better font/layout choices
+ better B&W line art
+ flowchart for character creation
- the awful isometric deck plans
Quote from: zircher on August 18, 2022, 12:12:57 PM
Since I'm not a fan of Traveller's Imperium (or bloat), I tend to roll with Cepheus Engine for my 2d6 sci-fi gaming.
I'm glad CE is around, but there's three reasons why I stick with MGT 1E:
Cepheus lacks the event tables. Stuff like "You are approached by a crime lord. He demands that you carry illegal items across the border. If you agree..." I love that stuff.
I can't track all the different versions. Cepheus, Cepheus Light, Cepheus Deluxe... I wish there was a one page grid so I could compare all of them.
The colors/layout for CD Kickstarter is AWFUL. Hot pink fading to orange? Is this a joke?
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/482738549/cepheus-deluxe-enhanced-edition?ref=discovery&term=cepheus
Quote from: Aglondir on August 18, 2022, 02:53:28 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 18, 2022, 06:12:01 AM
I think that Mongoose Traveller 1st edition is masterful - an incredible successor to Classic Traveller. I have bought extra core rulebooks and give them away to interested people - I will advocate for that version of the game.
I am embarrassed by the crippled version of the Babylon 5 game that Mongoose made for Traveller. To call the effort half-assed is to compliment it. My fan rage is there.
My choice as well. As for B5, Traveller was the wrong game engine for that setting. I've never agreed with the claim that Traveller is a generic sci-fi game; it has baked-in assumptions that make it bad choice for a lot of settings. I took a quick look at the B5 books and quickly moved on.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 18, 2022, 06:12:01 AM
Want to see me get violently drunk? Ask me about everything that went wrong with the Mongoose Traveller 2nd edition playtest. I really fan rage about that. The only good thing to come out of it was Cepheus Engine.
I have Gareth's notes about what he would do for a 2E:
Quote from: GH• Armor values need to be better calibrated against the weapons. Low-level armor is pretty pointless; high-level armor should be better to justify its price.
• Clarify how changing specialty in a career works.
• Clarify Law Level.
• Clarify 'Weapon' and 'Armor' benefits so people aren't running around in Battle Dress with PGMPs from the start.
• Give up on the pretence that the core rulebook is going to be a generic sci-fi system - the careers and skills can easily be used in different settings, but using Traveller's spacecraft assumptions in other settings is absurd.
• Psionics are overpriced.
• Revise the skill list, culling the ones that aren't ever used.
• Space combat and turrets also need fixing because of the changes to that mechanic.
• The computer rules (especially the expert/intellect) material suffers from a lack of space.
• The current Dodging and Initiative rules are both patches over where the Timing/Effect system got ripped out.
• Vehicle damage could be done better; the interaction between spacecraft-scale action and personal scale is clunky.
For 2E, I would have been happy with 1E
+ better font/layout choices
+ better B&W line art
+ flowchart for character creation
- the awful isometric deck plans
The saddest thing is that the Mongoose Traveller Core Rules Update 2022 and the Mongoose Traveller High Guard Update 2022 are both what the 2nd edition rules would have been if Mongoose had bothered to listen to the playtesters. Nobody liked the isometric deckplans. The whole fucking game could have been better than what it was.
I gnash my teeth at that because I got the Mongoose Traveller 2e Explorer's Edition and think that it is pretty good. Overpriced as a physical book, but pretty good.
I like Traveller quite a bit but frankly Traveller 5 is a mess of clunky autism loosely packed into a book format. I use Cepheus or MGT2E because they're clean and easy to understand for both players and GMs.
I just feel like this book is a bunch of ideas without playtesting a physical book where you then find out when you need to find a specific rule you're going through multiple hundreds of pages to find it. Even with an index that'll slow down a game.
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 19, 2022, 12:11:25 PM
I like Traveller quite a bit but frankly Traveller 5 is a mess of clunky autism loosely packed into a book format. I use Cepheus or MGT2E because they're clean and easy to understand for both players and GMs.
I just feel like this book is a bunch of ideas without playtesting a physical book where you then find out when you need to find a specific rule you're going through multiple hundreds of pages to find it. Even with an index that'll slow down a game.
Traveller 5 is the version you get when you have played every other version of Traveller for the past 40+ years and then you steal ideas from it.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 19, 2022, 12:23:37 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 19, 2022, 12:11:25 PM
I like Traveller quite a bit but frankly Traveller 5 is a mess of clunky autism loosely packed into a book format. I use Cepheus or MGT2E because they're clean and easy to understand for both players and GMs.
I just feel like this book is a bunch of ideas without playtesting a physical book where you then find out when you need to find a specific rule you're going through multiple hundreds of pages to find it. Even with an index that'll slow down a game.
Traveller 5 is the version you get when you have played every other version of Traveller for the past 40+ years and then you steal ideas from it.
That's a really good way of seeing it. But then why even make a book of so many pages just so others can use it as glorified errata for other games? I'm the sort of person where when I buy a rulebook I buy it with the intent to use it at some point. If I need to house rule I will but I have a limit where if I'm using loads of house rules why am I even playing this game as I clearly don't like the rules.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 15, 2022, 12:22:32 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on August 15, 2022, 12:54:47 AMthe task resolution basically works like this:
1. GM determines difficulty (1d6 = hard, 2d6 = normal, 3d6 = Hard)
2. Player rolls Xd6
3. Success if roll <= Att + Skill
Wow. That is an absolutely terrible resolution mechanic. I would have to work hard to make one that is worse.
Why is it terrible?
Probably because it should say: 1d6 = easy
Quote from: Anfelas on August 26, 2022, 09:19:58 AM
Probably because it should say: 1d6 = easy
Yeah, I wrote that incorrectly. Should be 1d6 = easy.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 15, 2022, 08:14:59 PM
I 100% agree with Svenhelgrim that the best way to go would be a cleaned up of T1 with tons of extra [usable] campaign material.
What needs cleaning up in T1?
Quote from: Aglondir on August 27, 2022, 12:40:45 AM
Quote from: Anfelas on August 26, 2022, 09:19:58 AM
Probably because it should say: 1d6 = easy
Yeah, I wrote that incorrectly. Should be 1d6 = easy.
Is it still terrible after the fix?
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on September 18, 2022, 06:02:30 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 15, 2022, 08:14:59 PM
I 100% agree with Svenhelgrim that the best way to go would be a cleaned up of T1 with tons of extra [usable] campaign material.
What needs cleaning up in T1?
All the errata. The awkwardly placed explanations (not explained where they are used). The unclear explanations. The contradictory explanations.
I answered such, because all versions of Traveller need this to some extent or another.
Quote from: Omega on August 17, 2022, 11:19:55 PM
Quote from: David Johansen on August 17, 2022, 10:05:43 PM
Mongoose Traveller has D&D style stat bonuses, D&D style initiative, and skill packages that entirely invalidate the mechanical point of random character creation and had Judge Dredd's Lawgiver doing the same damage as a Hammer's Slammers power gun.. It's dead to me. So, it's not just people who hate T4 and T5 who fan rage. ;)
Welcome to the "Nope. Was not impressed with the Mongoose Traveller" Club. 8)
At least in MgT2, skill packages are an optional feature -- they are there for people who don't like the random character generation. We like the random generation, but for quick play or people that don't like it, I understand providing rules for skill packages.
My wife and I are waiting to see how our group uses the stat style bonuses to skills. It sounds like "as long as you can present a reason why you should apply a stat bonus" you can do so. It adds more math to a math heavy system (bad, but not too bad with a good electronic character sheet) and makes characters more competent (or less if their stats are bad, I guess -- which could be good or bad or neither, depending on your point of view.)
Admittedly I dislike stat bonuses in general and want every point to count.
Quote from: Tod13 on September 18, 2022, 08:38:00 PM
It adds more math to a math heavy system (bad, but not too bad with a good electronic character sheet)
I keep hearing about how Traveller has lots of math. What math problems are you using it for?
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on September 19, 2022, 12:49:39 AM
Quote from: Tod13 on September 18, 2022, 08:38:00 PM
It adds more math to a math heavy system (bad, but not too bad with a good electronic character sheet)
I keep hearing about how Traveller has lots of math. What math problems are you using it for?
Assuming you are being serious...
It isn't that the math is difficult but that there is a lot of it, which slows things down. A lot at times. And compared to our homebrew which is opposed rolls of a single die on each side (using different sized die) with the larger number winning, most things are math heavy.
And much of the modifications can't be pre-calculated, unless you have a huge table in your electronic character (spread)sheet.
To make a combat roll, off the top of my head you have
add/minus for skill or lack thereof
add/minus for attribute or lack thereof
add/minus for range
add/minus for conditions (may be multiple)
add for aiming
minus for having dodged earlier (may be multiple)
minus for cover (or for concealment)
minus for parry in melee
add/minus for leadership
And all these years I thought it was just "T5", now I realize it's Traveller, raised to the power of 5... 8)
Quote from: Tod13 on September 19, 2022, 09:19:00 AM
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on September 19, 2022, 12:49:39 AM
Quote from: Tod13 on September 18, 2022, 08:38:00 PM
It adds more math to a math heavy system (bad, but not too bad with a good electronic character sheet)
I keep hearing about how Traveller has lots of math. What math problems are you using it for?
Assuming you are being serious...
It isn't that the math is difficult but that there is a lot of it, which slows things down. A lot at times. And compared to our homebrew which is opposed rolls of a single die on each side (using different sized die) with the larger number winning, most things are math heavy.
And much of the modifications can't be pre-calculated, unless you have a huge table in your electronic character (spread)sheet.
To make a combat roll, off the top of my head you have
add/minus for skill or lack thereof
add/minus for attribute or lack thereof
add/minus for range
add/minus for conditions (may be multiple)
add for aiming
minus for having dodged earlier (may be multiple)
minus for cover (or for concealment)
minus for parry in melee
add/minus for leadership
Classic Traveller space combat and world-building would have bent you over and done you in the ass if you think that is a lot of math.
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 19, 2022, 11:11:16 AM
Quote from: Tod13 on September 19, 2022, 09:19:00 AM
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on September 19, 2022, 12:49:39 AM
Quote from: Tod13 on September 18, 2022, 08:38:00 PM
It adds more math to a math heavy system (bad, but not too bad with a good electronic character sheet)
I keep hearing about how Traveller has lots of math. What math problems are you using it for?
Assuming you are being serious...
It isn't that the math is difficult but that there is a lot of it, which slows things down. A lot at times. And compared to our homebrew which is opposed rolls of a single die on each side (using different sized die) with the larger number winning, most things are math heavy.
And much of the modifications can't be pre-calculated, unless you have a huge table in your electronic character (spread)sheet.
To make a combat roll, off the top of my head you have
add/minus for skill or lack thereof
add/minus for attribute or lack thereof
add/minus for range
add/minus for conditions (may be multiple)
add for aiming
minus for having dodged earlier (may be multiple)
minus for cover (or for concealment)
minus for parry in melee
add/minus for leadership
Classic Traveller space combat and world-building would have bent you over and done you in the ass if you think that is a lot of math.
Off-line math is fine. And I just write programs to handle that if needed.
And I always describe Classic Traveller (Traveller in general for that matter) as "slow and clunky, but fun".
Quote from: Tod13 on September 19, 2022, 09:19:00 AM
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on September 19, 2022, 12:49:39 AM
Quote from: Tod13 on September 18, 2022, 08:38:00 PM
It adds more math to a math heavy system (bad, but not too bad with a good electronic character sheet)
I keep hearing about how Traveller has lots of math. What math problems are you using it for?
Assuming you are being serious...
It isn't that the math is difficult but that there is a lot of it, which slows things down. A lot at times. And compared to our homebrew which is opposed rolls of a single die on each side (using different sized die) with the larger number winning, most things are math heavy.
And much of the modifications can't be pre-calculated, unless you have a huge table in your electronic character (spread)sheet.
To make a combat roll, off the top of my head you have
add/minus for skill or lack thereof
add/minus for attribute or lack thereof
add/minus for range
add/minus for conditions (may be multiple)
add for aiming
minus for having dodged earlier (may be multiple)
minus for cover (or for concealment)
minus for parry in melee
add/minus for leadership
Why are you using Traveller for a wargame?
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on September 19, 2022, 03:36:10 PM
Quote from: Tod13 on September 19, 2022, 09:19:00 AM
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on September 19, 2022, 12:49:39 AM
Quote from: Tod13 on September 18, 2022, 08:38:00 PM
It adds more math to a math heavy system (bad, but not too bad with a good electronic character sheet)
I keep hearing about how Traveller has lots of math. What math problems are you using it for?
Assuming you are being serious...
It isn't that the math is difficult but that there is a lot of it, which slows things down. A lot at times. And compared to our homebrew which is opposed rolls of a single die on each side (using different sized die) with the larger number winning, most things are math heavy.
And much of the modifications can't be pre-calculated, unless you have a huge table in your electronic character (spread)sheet.
To make a combat roll, off the top of my head you have
add/minus for skill or lack thereof
add/minus for attribute or lack thereof
add/minus for range
add/minus for conditions (may be multiple)
add for aiming
minus for having dodged earlier (may be multiple)
minus for cover (or for concealment)
minus for parry in melee
add/minus for leadership
Why are you using Traveller for a wargame?
That's what the rulebook has in it. It ain't me.