Is the current version (what ever that means as they all seem to be current) worth playing or should I try to pick up one of the earlier editions?
I think Mongoose Traveller is probably your best bet at this point, the rules are clean and functional, if not particularly inspiring. As well, it's got Bablyon 5, Hammer's Slammers, and quite a few other sf properties tied to it.
I've made characters, but never played editions before. I think the Mongoose version is the best explained one, other than Gurps Traveller. Albeit I like Mongoose's version better because of the simpler rules. (I like Gurps, but am not as quick to go to it as I once was for games due to the time factor necessary to use it well.)
Make sure to get the newer printing if you get Mongoose's version as it fixes some of the text errors.
I looked at the Mongoose rules, and whereas the spare layout of CT inspires me, I found the MGT layout to be bleak and a little sad. Sad like a twelve hour drive through the feeder lot towns in the Texas Panhandle.
Quote from: Aos;323059I looked at the Mongoose rules, and whereas the spare layout of CT inspires me, I found the MGT layout to be bleak and a little sad. Sad like a twelve hour drive through the feeder lot towns in the Texas Panhandle.
I agree. I expected a contemporary imagining of Traveller to be more lavish like other Mongoose books, and I can see that they wanted to maintain the same feel as the original, but they didn't.
Personally, I prefer
The Traveller Book, from the 80s. It's still the best edition in my opinion.
Quote from: brettmb;323081Personally, I prefer The Traveller Book, from the 80s. It's still the best edition in my opinion.
This. I was just looking through this book again a couple days ago and marveling at how good it still is.
Third.
Quote from: brettmb;323081Personally, I prefer The Traveller Book, from the 80s. It's still the best edition in my opinion.
Agreed.
Er, I mean fourth.
If the only complaint you have about a game is that it doesn't have a lavish layout, then you don't have much wrong with the game IMHO.
Well, Jeff, that depends on the individual. Some of us, me for instance, are really impacted by that sort of thing. I actually require a pretty book and mechanics that i like. My years long Earthdawn campaign would not have existed if it hadn't been for the awesome color plates in the 1e core book. No joke. If one game can't give me mechanics and art, I can almost certainly find one that can. These are games, after all, and I'm not required to be practical in my choices.
Quote from: Thanos;323049Is the current version (what ever that means as they all seem to be current) worth playing or should I try to pick up one of the earlier editions?
The current (mongoose) version is very much worth playing. To me, the core book captures most of what was good about the original version, and applies a clean, consistent, and easy to use task system and a provides players with some nice roleplaying hooks right off the top.
If you'd like to see what a Mongoose Traveller game looks like in play, check the Homecoming campaign posts linked in my sig.
It's more than just not being lavish. It purposely tries to recreate the 70's style, but just looks bland and poorly organized rather than retro. Also, it doesn't really do anything different than Classic Traveller. A reprint would have been just as useful. My biggest complaint is that it's too expensive for essentially buying Traveller again.
Quote from: brettmb;323133It's more than just not being lavish. It purposely tries to recreate the 70's style, but just looks bland and poorly organized rather than retro.
I never understood if that was Mongoose's intention with the layout or not.
Quote from: brettmb;323133Also, it doesn't really do anything different than Classic Traveller. A reprint would have been just as useful.
Having a uniform skill mechanic alone is a great and needed upgrade over
Classic Traveller, that has been a bug for awhile in the game.
Quote from: brettmb;323133My biggest complaint is that it's too expensive for essentially buying Traveller again.
That I can understand. The only arguement I can say is that for the $40 cover price, you get a very wide-ranging toolkit of rules which cover most aspects of popular science fiction gaming.
Plus
Mongoose Traveller is backwards compatible enough to allow the use of
Classic Traveller material without modification.
Quote from: jeff37923;323144I never understood if that was Mongoose's intention with the layout or not.
It appears to be the case. What other Mongoose book of recent times has such a plain layout?
Quote from: jeff37923;323144Having a uniform skill mechanic alone is a great and needed upgrade over Classic Traveller, that has been a bug for awhile in the game.
I can't argue with that. However, its doesn't bother me that much.
Quote from: jeff37923;323144The only arguement I can say is that for the $40 cover price, you get a very wide-ranging toolkit of rules which cover most aspects of popular science fiction gaming.
Softcover would have been cheaper. Also look at the paper stock they used in the book compared to something like Conan. It's not even 60lb stock - it's 20/50lb, or simply put, copy paper. Now, there's nothing wrong with that, but with the scarcity of art, black and white interior, and basic paper stock, I would prefer a much lower price. Granted, there are probably licensing fees that attribute to the cost, but still...
I prefer GURPS Traveller. It's in an alternate timeline, of course, but there was a lot of support for in in 3e.
Quote from: jeff37923;323144Having a uniform skill mechanic alone is a great and needed upgrade over Classic Traveller, that has been a bug for awhile in the game.
Maybe for you, but I think that's a huge turn-off, even when it was introduced for
Traveller near the end of its run.
This is one of those things that some gamers want to 'fix' which I don't consider broken, or even a little chipped.
Unified mechanics are terribly overrated, imho.
Quote from: brettmb;323133It's more than just not being lavish. It purposely tries to recreate the 70's style, but just looks bland and poorly organized rather than retro. Also, it doesn't really do anything different than Classic Traveller. A reprint would have been just as useful. My biggest complaint is that it's too expensive for essentially buying Traveller again.
These were essentially my complaints with it as well. The only thing it did over CT was clarify that you need to roll 8+ for anything and not just a combat hit. We figured that in 1979. I get what the layout artist was trying to do but it didn't work -- I'd way rather they aimed at the internals of, say, Snapshot-era material with that great loose artwork.
Quote from: jeff37923;323144Having a uniform skill mechanic alone is a great and needed upgrade over Classic Traveller, that has been a bug for awhile in the game.
Ah, BITS had cracked that nutshell ages ago.
And if you're a Traveller fan without a small pile of BITS products... What the hell is wrong with you???
Quote from: Halfjack;323222I'd way rather they aimed at the internals of, say, Snapshot-era material with that great loose artwork.
I have the boxed set of Snapshot form 1983. To which version are you referring?
Quote from: Randaconda;323200I prefer GURPS Traveller. It's in an alternate timeline, of course, but there was a lot of support for in in 3e.
Thats mt preferred version of
TRAVELLER as well. Although I ran it for 4 plus years with the
4/e GURPS rules.
MONGOOSE should have emulated the
TRAVELLER BOOK. Anyone remember that ? Same size hardback that mongiose did - but artwork and maps that were 100 times more evocative of the setting and universe .
The biggest disappointment with Mongoose's version is just how much the art sucked on it all. I'd have to use the SJG artwork, deckplans , and maps I ever ran the Mongoose system.
- Ed C.
Quote from: brettmb;323226I have the boxed set of Snapshot form 1983. To which version are you referring?
That version, though from memory.
Quote from: Halfjack;323232That version, though from memory.
The interior was a little different from Traveller in that the text was smaller and more cramped. Wasn't much artwork though.
Ed, we've been talking about The Traveller Book. It rocks.
Quote from: brettmb;323235Ed, we've been talking about The Traveller Book. It rocks.
Thats what I figured.
I still have my copy . (by some miracle). It was used for background reference during my
G:T campaign. The illustrations and some other bits were damn useful for getting across some concepts to players who weren't used to the
TRAVELLER universe and ways of doing things.
- Ed C.
Quote from: brettmb;323149Softcover would have been cheaper. Also look at the paper stock they used in the book compared to something like Conan. It's not even 60lb stock - it's 20/50lb, or simply put, copy paper. Now, there's nothing wrong with that, but with the scarcity of art, black and white interior, and basic paper stock, I would prefer a much lower price. Granted, there are probably licensing fees that attribute to the cost, but still...
I agree about the softcover pricing and wouldn't mind seeing a lower overall price as well.
As for the paper stock, I think that had more to do with the meltdown of their in-house printing set-up a few months before release than anything else (they were scrambling for awhile to find another printer). The
Mongoose Traveller book is still serviceable to use.
Quote from: Warthur;323223Ah, BITS had cracked that nutshell ages ago.
And if you're a Traveller fan without a small pile of BITS products... What the hell is wrong with you???
I'll hold up my copy of
101 Religions with pride! I have all the BITS books released so far.
As for a unified mechanic, I prefer them over mishmashed individual ones scattered throughout the books.
Classic Traveller works the way it was written, works so well that it is still being played and championed after 30 plus years, but the
Traveller game does not suffer from the improvements made in
Mongoose Traveller.
Quote from: The Shaman;323203Unified mechanics are terribly overrated, imho.
Eh. "Stream of consciousness resolution" systems are teh shit, and unified skill systems are not highly overrated.
I love the Universal Task Profile -- it's my favorite thing about MegaTraveller and I've been known to go on at great length about how awesome it is and puts pretty much every other universal resolution mechanic (certainly every other one that's ever been used for Traveller) to shame with its simplicity, versatility, and mathematical rigor. And yet, when playing classic Traveller, using TTB or my boxed set instead of the MT set, I don't miss it or feel any need to import it -- the totally ad-hoc "system" works just fine for me too.
I've always hated the UTP's handling of attributes. Only every fifth point matters, five ten and fifteen. Wooo Hooo!
Actually, Marc did a huge work up of the statistical relationships between a wide variety of dice systems for T5 and I must admit it sold me on the T4/T5 model.
For the most part T5 isn't exactly what I want from an rpg but it's certainly been interesting to watch it develop.
Quote from: David Johansen;323320I've always hated the UTP's handling of attributes. Only every fifth point matters, five ten and fifteen. Wooo Hooo!
The 0 to +3 spread for stats is consistent with the skill point-ranges (where 1 is basic familiarity and 3 is professional level) and allows tasks to be modified by 1 stat and 1 skill, 2 stats, or 2 skills, thus making the system much more versatile (note: because skills are technically uncapped this gives them an edge in the comparison -- a skill value of 4 or 5 provides more of a boost than anyone can ever receive from a raw stat -- which I like, and at any rate the max DM of +8 keeps this from getting too out of hand). Plus it works well with the initial 2D stat rolls (where a player has an equal (17%) chance of a 0 or +2 DM, and otherwise (66%) has a +1). As for those 4 intermediate points being wasted or not mattering, that's not really true -- they matter as far as stat-improvements (if you've got a 9 you only need +1 point to get that +2 DM, if you've got a 5 or 6 you've got a long long way to go) and also, IIRC, every stat has a separate associated use or value that depends on the whole, undivided number (Str determies the character's max. encumbrance load, End how long they can operate without rest, Int + Edu max number of total skill points, etc.). I told you I can go on and on about this :)
QuoteActually, Marc did a huge work up of the statistical relationships between a wide variety of dice systems for T5 and I must admit it sold me on the T4/T5 model.
For the most part T5 isn't exactly what I want from an rpg but it's certainly been interesting to watch it develop.
I haven't kept up with developments since c. 2002, but as of that time the system seemed way too complex for my liking and still wasn't as versatile as the UTP. I'm almost willing to believe that the math works (though it absolutely
did not in the original T4 system with the half-dice) but it still seems like taking a very long road to get to someplace almost but not quite as good as where you started...
The big problem with T4 wasn't the half dice. It was the probability range relative to the stat + skill range. Stat + Skill isn't bad when you've got the difficulty range set seven points higher and slip in a -3 for unskilled actions. But with T4, it was really easy to rack up a skill 5 + stat 10 = 15 in a game where 4d6 was "impossible". I can understand why Marc wanted the half die in between 2d and 3d, but the ranges didn't line up right.
Yeah, that's what I meant. When characters well within the reasonable results of the char-gen system were able to succeed at "impossible" tasks more than 50% of the time something was definitely wrong. IIRC there was also a botch/crit flaw (common in dice pool systems) where it became easier to crit a task the harder it was. Also, stats being worth more than skills towards success felt "wrong" and not-Traveller to me -- and Marc's proposed fix (where if the difficulty level was higher than the skill level you add extra dice) while interesting conceptually, seemed like a lot of extra work and in-game calculation.
Having playtested it, the final public playtest draft was a more interesting game, with a couple glitches in tasks that were fixable, but they kautowed to a handful of screaming haters. It was fixable, but not without going to a roll low. They changed combat, ship combat, tasks, and several other items rather wuickly and without public playtest. (It feels like without in-house playtest, too.)
It failed to meet the pre-release hype. The pre-development was that it was supposed to be a subset of T5; MWM didn't have T5 to a sufficient point to do that. It didn't have an innovative task system, because their innovation was mathematically mildly broken, but fixable. (as noted above.) They opted to ditch it rather than fix it.
It's pretty solid, but very uninspired. Some good stuff. My "special thanks" was for a different perspective on trade, that, while not the one used, was credited for changing the direction he went with the trade system. I like what he came up with. It works rather well. GTFT may be more realistic, but other than GTFT, it's probably the best T&C in a Traveller edition.
Constantine Thomas was special thanks'd for his contribution of the realism options in world gen.
If you prefer the MT Task system, it can be swapped in
Simple 3+
Easy 5+
Routine 7+
Average 9+
Difficult 11+
Very Difficult 13+
Formidable 15+
Very Formidable 17+
Impossible 19+
If you want more stat influence, up difficulties by 1, and use stat/3. I do so, and keep the +8 DM limit, but some friends up the limit to +9.
Koltar: the reason it avoids in universe references to the OTU is because they wanted to distance it from the OTU.
Quite literally, they don't like the OTU. It's no longer, according to Mongoose, the "Official" TU, merely the "Original" TU... but, given that only one ATU has been published as an ATU... And the design blog at one point implied strongly that they didn't consider the OTU at all in the design process. Their response to several criticisms in the playtest was more succinct: a couple items that are incompatible with the OTU remained in. Specifically: the LL collumn changes in worlds, the steward rates, and the changes in J1/j2 pricing. (quite literally, this revalues the credit, and makes higher jump commercial shipping far more viable, but it also renders J1 ships practically impossible to operate without efficient speculative trade.)
To answer a question left unanswered up stream....
We have several versions that can be considered current, as they are all in print at this time.
Mongoose Traveller, which is a cleaned up version of traditional traveler, with clarifications on the original processes. Some of the editorial changes (called re-imagining by some) to the setting, are an attempt to clear up continuity issues that have occured over 30 years of writing and editorial changes. The system is set up to be independent of Third Imperium (Traveler Standard).
GURPS Traveller is the classic traveller setting with all its bumps and oddness, utilizing GURPS mechanics.
Traveller 20: The D20 version of Traveler. Same odd setting with its bumps, but using
Traveller 5th: The mythical heir to the Traveller Crown, evolving from Traveller 4th or Mark Miller's Traveller. It is written by Marc Miller, the original designer. Traveller5 or "T5" is the fifth edition of Traveller has been playtested and kicked around the net. It was supposed to be released in febuary of this year, but did not quite make it. The system consists of a Core Rules Set, with chapters arranged in sections reminiscent of the original 3 Traveller rules booklets (Characters and Combat, Starships, Worlds and Adventures), and separate, supporting materials. It is currently available on a CD with the informations in a roughly correct format.
To be honest, IMO, go with Mongoose Traveller. It is the most like the original system. It makes the most sense. You can run any Traveller millieu you like with it or other things.
T5 is not yet in print. Not even close. The CDRom for it is just playtest materials. Yes, pay-to-playtest. And it's not even to standalone-playable yet.
Quote from: MoonHunter;323530Mongoose Traveller, which is a cleaned up version of traditional traveler, with clarifications on the original processes.
'goose Trav' is not 'cleaned up'
Traveller. It is it's own edition of the game, with some very different features from the original game: some new, some either drawn from or similar to variant rules published in the original run.
This 'cleaned up
Classic Traveller' stuff is misleading and inaccurate.
I'm always good with classic or Mongoose. They're not 'the same' but its an easy switch. Hack them anyway. Or everyone'll die all the time.
Quote from: aramis;323397It failed to meet the pre-release hype. The pre-development was that it was supposed to be a subset of T5; MWM didn't have T5 to a sufficient point to do that. It didn't have an innovative task system, because their innovation was mathematically mildly broken, but fixable. (as noted above.) They opted to ditch it rather than fix it.
It's pretty solid, but very uninspired. Some good stuff. My "special thanks" was for a different perspective on trade, that, while not the one used, was credited for changing the direction he went with the trade system. I like what he came up with. It works rather well. GTFT may be more realistic, but other than GTFT, it's probably the best T&C in a Traveller edition.
I like it, as it is solid; my only complaint is that the equipment-to-tech ratio is very poorly thought out: for example the main book has bioscanners - which are
introduced at TL 15, and at that TL weighs 3.5 kg and costs 350,000 Cr. If the average income is only a few credits a day, then noone is going to buy these.
upkeep is roughly Cr50 per day for soc 7...
Quote from: aramis;324695upkeep is roughly Cr50 per day for soc 7...
And
that means that someone of Soc 7 isn't going to be buying a bioscanner!
Quote from: Jame Rowe;325040And that means that someone of Soc 7 isn't going to be buying a bioscanner!
What it means is that we don't know their income, but it is at least Cr50 per day bare minimum; salaries are going to be around KCr2 a month or more for soc 7 (corresponding to Cr500 clear per month above upkeep, which said upkeep is housing, energy sources, food, and clothing) if most people spend about 2/3 of their income on upkeep.
I know that, in my area, most people are spending 90% plus on upkeep, but that in the wealthier neighborhood my parents live in, it's closer to 50%... but the financial advisors restrict housing to about 50% of income for purchasing.
In any case, using the more conservative $3=Cr1, that's $4500/month for soc 7... I'm not even close. Using the more realistic $5=Cr1, that's $7500/mo upkeep for Soc 7... or roughly €2=Cr1 and €3=Cr1, for €3000-€4500 for soc 7...
Quote from: brettmb;323149Softcover would have been cheaper. Also look at the paper stock they used in the book compared to something like Conan. It's not even 60lb stock - it's 20/50lb, or simply put, copy paper. Now, there's nothing wrong with that, but with the scarcity of art, black and white interior, and basic paper stock, I would prefer a much lower price. Granted, there are probably licensing fees that attribute to the cost, but still...
Just an FYI, Mongoose put out a Pocket edition of the ruleset (updated with errata) for $19.99. It's exactly the same content as the big rulebook.
Also, I love MongTrav. I think it's one of the best games to come out in a long time.
I have no experience with any previous edition of Traveller.
Quote from: aramis;325168What it means is that we don't know their income, but it is at least Cr50 per day bare minimum; salaries are going to be around KCr2 a month or more for soc 7 (corresponding to Cr500 clear per month above upkeep, which said upkeep is housing, energy sources, food, and clothing) if most people spend about 2/3 of their income on upkeep.
I know that, in my area, most people are spending 90% plus on upkeep, but that in the wealthier neighborhood my parents live in, it's closer to 50%... but the financial advisors restrict housing to about 50% of income for purchasing.
In any case, using the more conservative $3=Cr1, that's $4500/month for soc 7... I'm not even close. Using the more realistic $5=Cr1, that's $7500/mo upkeep for Soc 7... or roughly €2=Cr1 and €3=Cr1, for €3000-€4500 for soc 7...
The point that I'm trying to make is that the bioscanner, as presented in the MGT TMB, is something that someone, even a doctor, of Soc 7, won't buy - it's simply too expensive for its function.
Quote from: Jame Rowe;325344The point that I'm trying to make is that the bioscanner, as presented in the MGT TMB, is something that someone, even a doctor, of Soc 7, won't buy - it's simply too expensive for its function.
Most doctors aren't soc 7... most will be soc 8-A. And most will be making more than their soc would indicate. Ship's doctors, IRL, generally make less than stable practitioners, but have fewer work related expenses and almost no liability issues... from the docs I've talked to, about 1/3 to 1/5th the income, but almost all of it is take-home, and being aboard, lifestyle expenses are much reduced, too... so a reasonable estimate is a doc in private practice should be taking home KCr6-10/mo... but the average doc also has tools exceeding his annual salary in value. He'll purchase it on a 5-10y loan, in his practice, and charge Cr50 per visit, 20 visits a day (KCr1/day) or more... Assuming he puts 10% into equipment, that's about Cr100/day or Cr500 per week. KCr 2.5/week, or KCr10/month. That beastie, financed at 5%APR compounded weekly, works out to approx KCr10.5/mo.
At 20% towards equipment... He's still clearing a good bit, but that doodad is readily affordable. Especially considering it's going to make his diagnostic work both more accurate and faster. It's the equivalent of a portable X-Ray, MRI, Sonography and CAT scanner...
Oh, and the MegaTraveller equivalent is KCr12, TL12, 2L, and 1kg...
Quote from: aramis;325358Oh, and the MegaTraveller equivalent is KCr12, TL12, 2L, and 1kg...
Which is why I object to the MG version being TL 15, 3.5 kg and 350,000 Cr. Even if it were introduced at TL 12 (it wouldn't be, we've probably got them already), it would get smaller and cheaper by TL 15.