This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: Traditional and "Indie" Games  (Read 20445 times)

HinterWelt

  • Nebuleon SE...Soon
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3965
    • http://www.hinterwelt.com/
Traditional and "Indie" Games
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2007, 08:22:32 PM »
Quote from: walkerp
I understand what you are saying and that kind of input has always been an optional but fundamental element of traditional games.  But I'm talking about actually during the action, not just in between games or in general meta discussion about the campaign.

So in a trad game, the player might say "I am going to try and make a witty retort against the prince's accusation."  The GM and you both roll and you dis the prince.  "The prince goes red in the face and the queen titters, holding her hand to her mouth."

In an indie game, the player would roll the dice ahead of time.  If the player wins, they might say "I make a witty retort against the prince.  He goes red in the face and the queen titters, holding her hand to her mouth."

hmm, again, not trying to be contrary but I switch between those two a lot. Basically, it depends on the players. Some want you to react to their actions so you might get
player: "I make a witty remark at the expense of the prince"
Me: "He goes red in the face and the queen twitters"
or you might get
player: "I make a witty remark at the expense of the prince"
Me:" He roars for his guards and the queen cries for your head".

Alternatively, I have had:
Player: "I make a witty response to the prince. He goes red and the queen winks at me."
Me: "O.k."

I would also add that it is not just a player to player difference but also a session to session for a player type thing. In one session you might be on your game and want to play out more of the scene than others while on other nights you might just want that random element of interacting with a GM and other players.

Again, I don't know that I would need to have rules for the play style shift.

hmm, does it mean that a Story Game attempts to dictate play style via rules set? That would not seem to be very productive or viable. I must admit, though, I am much more of "Give me a resolution system and get out of my game" type of guy.

Thanks,
Bill
The RPG Haven - Talking about RPGs
My Site
Oh...the HinterBlog
Lord Protector of the Cult of Clash was Right
When you look around you have to wonder,
Do you play to win or are you just a bad loser?

droog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4862
Traditional and "Indie" Games
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2007, 08:34:09 PM »
Quote from: HinterWelt
hmm, does it mean that a Story Game attempts to dictate play style via rules set? That would not seem to be very productive or viable.

See my reply above. Story/Forgey/whatever games tend to have a strong purpose of play built in. Personally, I don't see this as a dictate any more than I see the rules of chess as a dictate.

It's hard to know what you mean by 'productive or viable.' Again, in my personal experience you can have plenty of fun with these games if you take them for what they are.
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

walkerp
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2826
    • http://www.draconismontreal.ca
Traditional and "Indie" Games
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2007, 08:47:08 PM »
Quote from: HinterWelt
hmm, again, not trying to be contrary but I switch between those two a lot. Basically, it depends on the players. Some want you to react to their actions so you might get
player: "I make a witty remark at the expense of the prince"
Me: "He goes red in the face and the queen twitters"
or you might get
player: "I make a witty remark at the expense of the prince"
Me:" He roars for his guards and the queen cries for your head".

Alternatively, I have had:
Player: "I make a witty response to the prince. He goes red and the queen winks at me."
Me: "O.k."

See now I find that last option of yours quite surprising. This is something that I would never do as a player and would be a little taken aback if a player did in my game.  To me, it infringes upon the GMs knowledge of the NPC.  I don't know how they are going to react and I don't want to be able to control how they react, because in effect, that takes my character out of the limitations of the world.

But I think your example also shows that the play styles that are codified in a lot of indie games (well at least the few I have read and played) are play styles that have been used forever without rules or codification.  It just depends on the group.

Quote from: HinterWelt

hmm, does it mean that a Story Game attempts to dictate play style via rules set? That would not seem to be very productive or viable. I must admit, though, I am much more of "Give me a resolution system and get out of my game" type of guy.


Yes, I think you are getting to the heart of it. At least as I understand it.  I think the Indie games really want mechanisms to guide the development of the story and to fix play style.  I'm with you, as far as wanting a general resolution system and let the group style dicate how things are going to play out.
"The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is akin to the difference between being fascinated with sex and being fascinated with masturbation. Not that there's anything wrong with jerking off, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're getting laid." —Aos

HinterWelt

  • Nebuleon SE...Soon
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3965
    • http://www.hinterwelt.com/
Traditional and "Indie" Games
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2007, 09:13:35 PM »
Quote from: walkerp

Yes, I think you are getting to the heart of it. At least as I understand it.  I think the Indie games really want mechanisms to guide the development of the story and to fix play style.  I'm with you, as far as wanting a general resolution system and let the group style dicate how things are going to play out.

Thanks Walker, that helped clear up a lot of the mystery for me. I really do not play many Story Games as I usually do not have a lot of interest in the subject matter or it is already covered in some other game I won (usually a trad game) so it is good to get other folks views on it.

Thanks,
Bill
The RPG Haven - Talking about RPGs
My Site
Oh...the HinterBlog
Lord Protector of the Cult of Clash was Right
When you look around you have to wonder,
Do you play to win or are you just a bad loser?

HinterWelt

  • Nebuleon SE...Soon
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3965
    • http://www.hinterwelt.com/
Traditional and "Indie" Games
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2007, 09:21:48 PM »
Quote from: droog
See my reply above. Story/Forgey/whatever games tend to have a strong purpose of play built in. Personally, I don't see this as a dictate any more than I see the rules of chess as a dictate.

It's hard to know what you mean by 'productive or viable.' Again, in my personal experience you can have plenty of fun with these games if you take them for what they are.

Oh, I just mean that if you are going to attempt to dictate play style you will most likely end up wasting a lot of the players time trying to understand it and thus not be very productive towards your goal of dictating play style. As for viable, it just seems to me that telling someone who to play is often a wet dream that some designers cling to. Again, the way I design settings and systems tend to be "Rules, setting info and play it how ever you like". I personally have run games where it really would not have mattered what the rule set was since we all we so caught up in the story that we just belted along. No need for a resolution system of any kind. Other games, we would have great fun rolling dice for hour long combats. Thrust, parry, dodge, attempt disarm and heroic finish! To me, telling me I must play either one of those would fail horribly. I would play the game once then most likely never again. Giving advice about play styles, even suggesting a prefered one for the setting is most welcome. Codifying it in the rules? It seems neither productive or viable.

Let me stress, the above is my opinion only. I am not attempting to say this is some universal truth, just the way I play, design and what I prefer.

Bill
The RPG Haven - Talking about RPGs
My Site
Oh...the HinterBlog
Lord Protector of the Cult of Clash was Right
When you look around you have to wonder,
Do you play to win or are you just a bad loser?

Koltar

  • Openly GURPS Loving
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8328
Traditional and "Indie" Games
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2007, 09:28:47 PM »
Quote from: HinterWelt
That just seems so strange to me. I am not trying to be snarky or obtuse but I have always let my players interject ideas into the campaign. I do not need rules for it. However, I think I begin to see the problem. ;)

Bill


To me, thats a normal bit in a traditional RPG - especially in an ongoing campaign.

Bill, I've seen a copy of Squirrel Attack. Even tho it was done from a humorous angle it was still a pretty traditional RPGs. It just had Squirrels as the possible player characters.


- Ed C.
The return of 'You can't take the Sky From me!'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUn-eN8mkDw&feature=rec-fresh+div

This is what a really cool FANTASY RPG should be like :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-WnjVUBDbs

Still here, still alive, at least Seven years now...

droog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4862
Traditional and "Indie" Games
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2007, 09:57:48 PM »
Quote from: HinterWelt
Oh, I just mean that if you are going to attempt to dictate play style you will most likely end up wasting a lot of the players time trying to understand it and thus not be very productive towards your goal of dictating play style. As for viable, it just seems to me that telling someone who to play is often a wet dream that some designers cling to.
...............................
Let me stress, the above is my opinion only. I am not attempting to say this is some universal truth, just the way I play, design and what I prefer.

Let me stress that I understand that this is your opinion. I do have some trouble with your terminology, eg I'm uncertain exactly what you mean by 'style' and 'telling someone who to play'.

However, it's not been my experience that these sorts of games are hard to grasp. For example, a while back I played InSpectres with a group of old RPers (lots and lots of GURPS and RQ). They had no trouble grasping what was required and we had a lot of fun.
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

HinterWelt

  • Nebuleon SE...Soon
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3965
    • http://www.hinterwelt.com/
Traditional and "Indie" Games
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2007, 10:08:27 PM »
Quote from: droog
Let me stress that I understand that this is your opinion. I do have some trouble with your terminology, eg I'm uncertain exactly what you mean by 'style' and 'telling someone who to play'.

Sorry, that was a typo, it should have read "telling someone how to play". By style, I merely mean the differences as WalkerP and I have been discussing. Basically, he was stating that a trad game had emphasis on player statement, GM response. Story Gaming had more emphasis on player statements having a scope beyond the response of the GM. He stated it much clearer and I would refer you back to his post for clarity.
Quote from: droog

However, it's not been my experience that these sorts of games are hard to grasp. For example, a while back I played InSpectres with a group of old RPers (lots and lots of GURPS and RQ). They had no trouble grasping what was required and we had a lot of fun.

I won't argue in the least. Again, my experience with Story/Forgey Games has been pretty limited. Those I have encountered generally did not hold me for more than a session. That is not meant as a broad sampling in any way.

However, was it a case that you explained to them what was expected or that they read it and understood it from the role book? It can be very different to have someone run it down for you as opposed to reading the rules and implementing from that. I have found trad games generally easier to grok. This, of course, could have everything to do with my experience in games.

Bill
The RPG Haven - Talking about RPGs
My Site
Oh...the HinterBlog
Lord Protector of the Cult of Clash was Right
When you look around you have to wonder,
Do you play to win or are you just a bad loser?

HinterWelt

  • Nebuleon SE...Soon
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3965
    • http://www.hinterwelt.com/
Traditional and "Indie" Games
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2007, 10:10:54 PM »
Quote from: Koltar
To me, thats a normal bit in a traditional RPG - especially in an ongoing campaign.

Bill, I've seen a copy of Squirrel Attack. Even tho it was done from a humorous angle it was still a pretty traditional RPGs. It just had Squirrels as the possible player characters.


- Ed C.

Yeah, for all it has Karma Points and is not trad subject matter, I have acutally had folks say they have played it as a traditional fantasy RPG, a campaign of several sessions no less. I have to say, SA! is probably as non-trad as I would go and that is apparently not very untraditional. :o

Bill
The RPG Haven - Talking about RPGs
My Site
Oh...the HinterBlog
Lord Protector of the Cult of Clash was Right
When you look around you have to wonder,
Do you play to win or are you just a bad loser?

droog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4862
Traditional and "Indie" Games
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2007, 10:29:38 PM »
Quote from: HinterWelt
However, was it a case that you explained to them what was expected or that they read it and understood it from the role book? It can be very different to have someone run it down for you as opposed to reading the rules and implementing from that. I have found trad games generally easier to grok. This, of course, could have everything to do with my experience in games.

There wasn't that much to explain, I found. For myself (since I ran the game), I found InSpectres pretty simple to understand from a quick read-through.  

Now, that's not always the case, obviously. Like other RPGs, the Forge-style games vary in presentation and complexity. And it's true that they're all quite different games and therefore cannot necessarily be understood through prior experience. Playing InSpectres doesn't equip you with any knowledge of Dogs in the Vineyard, though it may give you a conceptual framework.

I'm not sure whether I agree with you or not about traditional games. In so far as one takes a game as a resolution mechanic and not much else, yes, it's just a matter of different dice and probabilities (and the structure of chr creation). But those can be pretty huge differences. On the other hand, I do think that eg GURPS and RQ differ from each other less than do eg InSpectres and DitV. That's all part of the Forgey design approach, where you start by throwing out assumptions.

Have you ever played Pendragon? It's my opinion that PD is a great deal different from many other 'traditional' games. I ran it for several years, so I had a sort of conceptual basis for approaching the Forge games. Also, I share your experience with trying different ways of informally sharing narrative control etc, but in my case I found it fairly easy to make the step to formalising that.
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

VBWyrde

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 507
    • http://www.Elthos.com
Traditional and "Indie" Games
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2007, 10:47:36 PM »
Quote from: HinterWelt
Perhaps story games vs Trad would be a better phrase.

I was shooting for how someone would know they were playing in a story/forgie/indie game vs a trad game if no one told them.

Thanks,
Bill


Hmmm... Story Games vs Trad doesn't work for me.  I've been playing a Traditional style game (house rules) since the wee-days of D&D, and I've always focused on Story in my World.   So that's not quite it either, I don't think.  In any case...  The devilish thing about it all is that people latch on to RPG Theory and try to make it into an "academic" sounding discipline when it is really nothing of the sort.   It all comes across as sounding so horribly pretentious and self-important with the "Stance" of this, and the "ist" of that, and all ... I suspect the reason why people do this is because they are in college, perhaps, working toward their Masters or PhDs, for whom it is natural to want to justify a continuing interest in something fun like RPGs by making it into something Academic sounding.   It's all rather like a game, isn't it?  And how it lends it all such an air of weighty seriousness that even an old crusty college professor would have to gaze down upon them with at least some grudging respect.  It also helps, I suppose, if they happen to have thoughts of turning RPGing into some sort of academic career; a Professor of RPG Theory, perhaps?   Not a bad idea, at that!   I could see tomes and volumes on the "Anthropological Analysis of Midwestern Teenage D&D Players; An Addiction to the Tendency for Gamist Crunchiness"  Why, to do so would certainly therefore require a sort of Academic Discipline involving the much discussed and pondered and blogged-about subject of RPG Theory!  Why it all goes without saying, of course!  After all, you see, it's so very important, people are talking about in quite a few universities... so it must be very ponderously impending, mustn't it?  And so by adding more and more wood to the pile the Theorists are self-creating a Career Path for themselves, I should say.  It is, admittedly but a hunch on my part, however I don't think it's a bad one as hunch's go.   Unfortunately, because there is no actual academic basis for the wild conjectures and loose definitions bandied about as RPG Theory, it is in fact something much less academic than one would think at first blush, despite the gravely serious tones, heady sounding terminology, and deviously shifting jargon.   Someday perhaps, some bright and hard working genius may come along and try to cast his life away in an attempt to assemble from this mass of smoldering chaos a true academic approach to RPG Theory.   And I think that could be worthwhile, and might even lead to some interesting discoveries.   But for now, I see little hope of it.   Meanwhile the enormously overwrought monster is being pushed along the meandering pathways of the dark and gloomy moors by a murder of Gregorian-chanting evangelicals, deep in a night of howling winds, with sparks flying from the unfathomably flaming creature... thump, Thump, THUMP...



Boooooo!

Happy Halloween!!  :D
* Aspire to Inspire *
Elthos RPG

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
Traditional and "Indie" Games
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2007, 11:02:05 PM »
Quote from: walkerp

So in a trad game, the player might say "I am going to try and make a witty retort against the prince's accusation."  The GM and you both roll and you dis the prince.  "The prince goes red in the face and the queen titters, holding her hand to her mouth."

In an indie game, the player would roll the dice ahead of time.  If the player wins, they might say "I make a witty retort against the prince.  He goes red in the face and the queen titters, holding her hand to her mouth."


Your example isn't bad; but it is presented in a way that misses one very significant point: you make it seem that the result will be the same ("He goes red in the face and the queen titters, holding her hand to her mouth").

The big difference is that in the Regular RPG structure, its the GM that decides what happens, in Forgist games its usually the players (or some kind of collective, or a jenga block, or randomly choosing keywords from james joyce novels, or whatever other fucking gimmick they come up with, but anything BUT the GM).

So a more likely result is that in the Regular RPG game the player rolls the dice and the GM says: "He goes red in the face and the queen titters, holding her hand to her mouth"; whereas in the Forgist game the Player decides that the Prince is so astounded that he gives the player a peerage, or lets him have kinky sex with the queen, or does any other thing that the narcissistic player thinks will give him the most short-term satisfaction.

RPGPundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
Traditional and "Indie" Games
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2007, 11:05:38 PM »
Quote from: droog
Well, I think it's arguable, but it's a bit irrelevant really. You can call it an indie game if you want to. It's not like you can buy it off a shelf anywhere.


What about GURPS? What about Palladium?

Let's just admit that to the Forgies "indie" only means what they want to attach "coolness" to, which is usually whatever Ron Edwards claims to be cool, even if something that he thinks is cool doesn't technically fit the mold (like Heroquest); whereas anything that is decidedly unhip to this crowd but would technically fit the definition is somehow conveniently declared "not indie" (like GURPS or RIFTS).

RPGPundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
Traditional and "Indie" Games
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2007, 11:09:37 PM »
Quote from: droog

Have you ever played Pendragon? It's my opinion that PD is a great deal different from many other 'traditional' games. I ran it for several years, so I had a sort of conceptual basis for approaching the Forge games. Also, I share your experience with trying different ways of informally sharing narrative control etc, but in my case I found it fairly easy to make the step to formalising that.


I fail to see anything in Pendragon that disempowers GMs.  I think this is a clear case of a game that a lot of pretentious storygamers think is cool being given the status of "storygame" when it in no way resembles it.

Not to mention that they're obviously reading it utterly wrong; in practice Pendragon is a very brutal and gritty combat-focused game with a lot of political intrigue thrown in.  It has a brilliant "alignment" system, no question about that, but one that does nothing to disempower GMs or give players any "narrative control" or whateverthefuck.

RPGPundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

walkerp
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2826
    • http://www.draconismontreal.ca
Traditional and "Indie" Games
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2007, 11:14:23 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
Your example isn't bad; but it is presented in a way that misses one very significant point: you make it seem that the result will be the same ("He goes red in the face and the queen titters, holding her hand to her mouth").

The big difference is that in the Regular RPG structure, its the GM that decides what happens, in Forgist games its usually the players (or some kind of collective, or a jenga block, or randomly choosing keywords from james joyce novels, or whatever other fucking gimmick they come up with, but anything BUT the GM).

Yep.  I'm with you up to here.


Quote from: RPGPundit
So a more likely result is that in the Regular RPG game the player rolls the dice and the GM says: "He goes red in the face and the queen titters, holding her hand to her mouth"; whereas in the Forgist game the Player decides that the Prince is so astounded that he gives the player a peerage, or lets him have kinky sex with the queen, or does any other thing that the narcissistic player thinks will give him the most short-term satisfaction.
But you lose me here, I'm afraid.

This has not been my experience.  Though it is a logical conclusion one could make by taking the concept and pushing it as far as it can go.  But in my experience, there are many structural and non-structural limitations to how far players can take their "fiat".  In the rules, for instance, other players can veto moves if they are seen as out of genre and there are more granular blocks as well. Personally speaking, all those kind of mechanics really don't do much for me, but I believe they are effective in allowing a group that wants to go down this route to construct a narrative development that makes sense to the set-up and isn't just sort of arbitrary successes and power fantasies.
"The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is akin to the difference between being fascinated with sex and being fascinated with masturbation. Not that there's anything wrong with jerking off, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're getting laid." —Aos