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Author Topic: TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?  (Read 5914 times)

Graytung

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TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2020, 09:52:35 AM »
Don't do it... not like that anyway.

Here are some reasons:

0.0000000000000000000042 percent of the universe contains matter. If you want to simulate a chance of collision perhaps you should make them roll a d100,000,000,000,000,000,000 instead, with the result of a 1 causing collision. Yes, I'm being silly. Even going into "theoretical hyperspace" directly through the core of a fictional galaxy might lower that die to a d1,000,000,000, at a guess. There is just too much damn space between celestial objects.

The second and most important reason is that OSR games should have as few skill checks as you can manage. What I would propose is that when the crew want to enter hyperspace, it takes 1d4 "space combat turns" to calculate a safe trajectory. If the crew just wait the turns out, the green light on the console comes on saying warp speed ready, and it works 100% this way. However, if the players want to go NOW, because perhaps they are being bombarded, then that's where you roll the percentile dice... Why? Because the players made that choice themselves, not the dice.

Likewise, if the players don't interrogate a dungeon's environment by asking questions of the DM, then when that player steps on a trap, that's when you roll the dice.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 09:56:17 AM by Graytung »

jeff37923

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TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2020, 10:12:31 AM »
d20 Traveller has a chance of the ship exploding on jump entry.

Let me give an example where playing strictly by the rules would have fucked everything up with that kind of random TPK result.

d20 Traveller game, the PCs have just gotten enough information to start the adventure and are jumping to the destination system. We roll to see if the ship misjumps. It does. Badly, so bad that the result according to the dice roll and the rules is the destruction of the ship. Now, if I wasn't a Viking Hat GM, then I would have had to let the entire game fall apart before it had even begun in order to follow the rules.

Instead I fudged the dice because I am the arbiter of the rules and not a computer following a program. The game went on, the PCs ship did not explode killing all the characters. They instead had the mother of all misjumps and made a campaign out of getting back to their starting point.
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Slipshot762

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TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2020, 12:24:20 PM »
sure have it happen but give players a chance to run for escape pods as the ship breaks up

robiswrong

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TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2020, 12:55:45 PM »
TPKs are fine.  They should just be the result of poor or risky player decisions, and preferably a chain of them.

As an example, rolling 1d6 and on a 1 you die at the beginning of every session is dumb.

If you choose to get in a game of Russian Roulette, you're dumb and should die on a 1 on a 1d6.  But the GM saying that you need to do that out of the blue isn't really good gameplay.

If you make one poor/risky decision after another, and are eventually placed in a position where you either need to do something you don't want to do, or play Russian Roulette?  Make your choice and take your chances.  That's a series of bad luck and screwups, and you still have a choice.

Quote from: Graytung;1128477
The second and most important reason is that OSR games should have as few skill checks as you can manage. What I would propose is that when the crew want to enter hyperspace, it takes 1d4 "space combat turns" to calculate a safe trajectory. If the crew just wait the turns out, the green light on the console comes on saying warp speed ready, and it works 100% this way. However, if the players want to go NOW, because perhaps they are being bombarded, then that's where you roll the percentile dice... Why? Because the players made that choice themselves, not the dice.

I 100% agree with this (and it's super similar to what I suggested earlier in the thread).  Games usually are best when they're focused on player decisions rather than mathematical mechanics.

Spinachcat

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TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2020, 02:19:02 PM »
Quote from: jeff37923;1128478
They instead had the mother of all misjumps and made a campaign out of getting back to their starting point.


Did your players put jump engine maintenance as their first expense priority after that incident?

After my group had a misjump TPK, the next campaign had the players being so meticulous about anything misjump related, and halfway through the campaign they were under heavy attack and had no choice but flip the jump switch and the pure panic at the table was hysterical for the navigation roll.

Steven Mitchell

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TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2020, 03:13:28 PM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;1128502
Did your players put jump engine maintenance as their first expense priority after that incident?

After my group had a misjump TPK, the next campaign had the players being so meticulous about anything misjump related, and halfway through the campaign they were under heavy attack and had no choice but flip the jump switch and the pure panic at the table was hysterical for the navigation roll.

Yes.  I'm not sure what I enjoy more:  Players learning from their mistakes, or players over-correcting with their next characters.

jeff37923

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TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2020, 05:56:25 PM »
It wasn't so much jump engine maintenance, it was way the T20 rules were written. The dice hated the Players that night. When I've brought up this incident before here, a lot of people said that it was poor writing of the rules. I think that the rule is fine, but should be adjusted by the referee for the PCs - especially when it comes to timing.
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Spinachcat

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TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2020, 06:35:26 PM »
Exploding from a misjump is much more of a happy ending than what I put my players through when they misjumped into empty space. I gave them a 1 in 36 chance of rescue every week (aka, roll a 12 on 2D6 and a random ship would pop into the system) and let them roll the dice. Of course, we were tracking down supplies and fuel and air...and oh the cries of "Oh, why didn't we buy low passage bunks! Because we wanted more tonnage to trade stuff!" and then...the deciding how to go out and what messages to leave behind to whoever might find the ship in the future.

It was (hysterically) grim at the end. A couple PCs spaced themselves. The engineer opened the power plant to flood the ship with radiation so it would crap out the salvage value. The gunner blew away the pilot/navigator and painted messages on the walls in his blood then aced himself.

Good times.

The aftermath was a gas. Of course, the players wanted to keep rolling to see how long after their doom did another ship pop into the system. It took 3 more rolls and 300 ton subsidized merchant ship arrived...and that's where we started the new campaign!

Simlasa

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TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2020, 07:18:40 PM »
Quote from: robiswrong;1128497
TPKs are fine.  They should just be the result of poor or risky player decisions, and preferably a chain of them.

As an example, rolling 1d6 and on a 1 you die at the beginning of every session is dumb.

If you choose to get in a game of Russian Roulette, you're dumb and should die on a 1 on a 1d6.  But the GM saying that you need to do that out of the blue isn't really good gameplay.
Yeah, I agree with all that. Most of the TPKs I've seen were a domino of one guy or two PCs dying, and the others fighting on rather than running away. Sometimes (the giant rabbit!) seemed heroic... other times it was just down to some dumb assumption that they were 'supposed' to win.

Omega

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TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2020, 03:30:15 PM »
Indeed.

nDervish

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TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2020, 09:10:00 AM »
Quote from: Simlasa;1128541
Yeah, I agree with all that. Most of the TPKs I've seen were a domino of one guy or two PCs dying, and the others fighting on rather than running away. Sometimes (the giant rabbit!) seemed heroic... other times it was just down to some dumb assumption that they were 'supposed' to win.


What I find the most fascinating to watch are the times when the players are actively aware of this, but fight on to their doom regardless.  "These orcs are kicking our asses, we need to fall back and escape!"  A combat round later: "Bob's down!  We didn't think we could win this with him, but now we have to stay and fight to the end without him, or else he'll be captured!"

Reckall

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TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2020, 09:56:32 AM »
A culture that develops an hyperspace engine that can cause TPK one every one-hundreds jumps will not use it until "failsafe tech" is also developed. Maybe a special sensor can "scan" the arrival point 1/1,000,000 secs before the spaceship emerges, judge if there is a danger, and instruct the on-board AI to either move accordingly the arrival point or to leave the ship in hyperspace and warn the crew about what is happening.

If the party wants to buy an old bucket of nails without failsafe tech, then it becomes their problem.
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insubordinate polyhedral

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TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2020, 11:32:50 AM »
Quote from: Reckall;1128702
A culture that develops an hyperspace engine that can cause TPK one every one-hundreds jumps will not use it until "failsafe tech" is also developed. Maybe a special sensor can "scan" the arrival point 1/1,000,000 secs before the spaceship emerges, judge if there is a danger, and instruct the on-board AI to either move accordingly the arrival point or to leave the ship in hyperspace and warn the crew about what is happening.

If the party wants to buy an old bucket of nails without failsafe tech, then it becomes their problem.

That's an interesting point. On the one hand, space shuttles and space missions: national efforts spanning years of work with the best engineers the country has to offer.

On the other hand, cars: when introduced, much faster than previous modes of transport. Hideously unsafe because we hadn't the damndest idea how to make them safe yet. ~90 years in, we're still improving the safety, and yet the driver of a car can still readily do the equivalent of a jump straight into a planetary body, killing all the occupants.

In the middle is airplanes: tightly regulated, highly engineered, very safe, with the very best in safety and tech (commercial jets) way out of the price range of small crews. And, again, the accessible ones nose plant, frequently relative to commercial airliners. Part of it is also the difference in training between commercial pilots (e.g. often former military) vs. Joe Q. Rando who has enough money to buy a plane.

So in addition to the monetary dimension, maybe there's also an arc of development/market availability question, for what kind of safety/failsafe tech is available.

And then there's the consideration of what happens when the failsafe tech goes haywire (e.g. AF 447). But I'm rambling, so I'll stop. :D

Omega

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TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2020, 12:11:04 PM »
Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1128705
On the other hand, cars: when introduced, much faster than previous modes of transport. Hideously unsafe because we hadn't the damndest idea how to make them safe yet. ~90 years in, we're still improving the safety, and yet the driver of a car can still readily do the equivalent of a jump straight into a planetary body, killing all the occupants.

In the middle is airplanes: tightly regulated, highly engineered, very safe, with the very best in safety and tech (commercial jets) way out of the price range of small crews. And, again, the accessible ones nose plant, frequently relative to commercial airliners. Part of it is also the difference in training between commercial pilots (e.g. often former military) vs. Joe Q. Rando who has enough money to buy a plane.

1: earlier cars were probably safer due to the lower speeds. Over time we increased the speeds but with speed came an increasing lack of safety as its not the tech thats the problem. Its the driver. Ive been in two auto accidents, one I was too young to remember. In both cases it was some maniac running a red light. A costuming friend of mines fiance was for all intents and purposes murdered by a repeat drunk driver who ran them over as they were crossing the street. Sure, the tech can fail and fail spectacularly. But far more prevalent its the driver.

2: Theres a rather interesting youtube channel that documents air disasters and in a majority the problem was faulty maintenance. Not the actual tech itself. In one case this lead to a literal ghost plane flying along with everyone on board dead due to a poorly installed altimeter I believe that caused a cascade of disasters.

This is something you learn early on. Your equipment is only as good as the maintenance crew and one slip up can cause disaster. And due to the complexity of some tech now it can be thrown out of wack, sometimes disasterously by just one damn screw.

Killing the whole party every d100th time they get in a train, car, or space ship, or just try to cross the street, might be "realistic" but its sure as heck not very fun in a game. Unless its the Wandering Damage Table...

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4: Your character cuts himself while shaving; consult Limb Loss Subtable.

oggsmash

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TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2020, 12:33:38 PM »
High tech failure rates may also need to take into account corporate malfeasance as well.....