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Author Topic: TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?  (Read 5908 times)

Darrin Kelley

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Re: TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2021, 06:38:13 PM »
TPK shows that the GM has utterly failed the game group. It also shows the GM doesn't place any value on the characters the players went to the trouble of creating.
 

Pat
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Re: TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2021, 07:08:45 PM »
TPK shows that the GM has utterly failed the game group. It also shows the GM doesn't place any value on the characters the players went to the trouble of creating.
Darrin's players: We want a staff of the magi in the next room.
Darrin Kelley: What are you talking about? You don't get to decide what's in the next room.
Darrin's players: No staff? We jump off the cliff.
<Party falls, everyone dies>
Darrin Kelley: Oh noes I utterly failed my game group. Next time, I'll make sure there will be a staff of the magi and a vorpal sword in every room!

Abraxus

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Re: TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2021, 09:20:12 PM »
I don’t think TPk is a failing on the DM part. Sometimes the dice gods fail to smile on the players. I have played in a few campaigns that came close or were a TPK because of bad dice rolls. With the DM/GM telling us upfront he would not fudge dice rolls and all rolls done in front of the players.

Sometimes plays do stupid things at the table and even when warned repeatedly by the DM/GM that the encounters are tough still do the truly boneheaded thing and insist on commit collective suicide by stupid player decisions. When the TPK is avoidable especially on the players part if your going to do the adult equivalent of acting like a child and taking your toys home..then good riddance to immature rubbish.

If you want the equivalent of participation trophies in gaming look elsewhere then my table. Now it’s another when the DM/ GM stacks the deck against the players and no matter what they do or how smart they play or retreat it’s a TPK. Then yeah fuck that bullshit and screw that look for another table.

Acting like a child in a. Adult body because of an avoidable TPk grow a CB par and grow the fuck up.

jeff37923

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Re: TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2021, 09:55:40 PM »
TPK shows that the GM has utterly failed the game group. It also shows the GM doesn't place any value on the characters the players went to the trouble of creating.

Have you considered the possibility that a TPK means the game group has failed the GM? Or that the Players don't place any value on the characters that they created?

"Meh."

mAcular Chaotic

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Re: TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2021, 12:51:52 PM »
Automatic TPKs are bad, but as far as a TPK happening because of one character's mistake... that sounds more like a decision.

For example, let's say the party is level 1 and sneaking past an owlbear. Fighting it means they're surely doomed or near doomed. One player gets the bright idea to throw a stone at the owlbear for laughs. The owlbear wakes up and kills all the party members in its fury.

Should the rest of the party have suffered from that player's decision?
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.

HappyDaze

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Re: TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2021, 12:54:27 PM »
Should the rest of the party have suffered from that player's decision?
Do you allow the rest of the party to benefit from one player's decision?

The answers to both your question and mine would have to be the same in any game I'm running or playing.

Chris24601

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Re: TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2021, 02:03:34 PM »
Automatic TPKs are bad, but as far as a TPK happening because of one character's mistake... that sounds more like a decision.

For example, let's say the party is level 1 and sneaking past an owlbear. Fighting it means they're surely doomed or near doomed. One player gets the bright idea to throw a stone at the owlbear for laughs. The owlbear wakes up and kills all the party members in its fury.

Should the rest of the party have suffered from that player's decision?
My serious answer as a GM; the owlbear unleashes it’s full fury during the first round on the offending idiot who threw the rock, even if it’s wasting attacks on the corpse.

If the rest of the party takes that round to flee, they survive and the owlbear enjoys its meal. If they instead attack the owlbear then the dice fall where they may, but the other players at least got a choice in the outcome.

My basic principle is that PC death should not, generally, come down to a single point of failure over which a PC has no control (and unless the dice are loaded that includes any single dice roll). A player misses their perception check and is instantly crushed by a falling rock is certainly a realistic outcome, but it’s not a particularly fun one generally.*

But if they also get some sort “Dodge” check to avoid the falling rock, you’re now up to two points of failure. If there’s a damage roll reflecting how the rock struck them (low damage they actually dodged after all but bruised or tore a muscle in the effort... medium damage a limb might be caught and crushed... etc.) you’re now up to three points of failure.

Even better is if the PC has some sort of choice to make; the rock starts to fall and they can either dive for the closest point (low difficulty, maybe even automatic) and be separated from the party by the rock or they can dive the further distance back to the party (higher difficulty) but be with the party presuming they succeed. Now their death isn’t random bad luck, it was the choice to go for the higher difficulty path that doomed them.

For a group TPK I’d really need it to involve failures from multiple group members (probably not all, but more than one) for failure to occur. Like put the TPK on the table for a rushed jump from a cold engine start. Now the navigator AND the engineer have to be cutting corners on the attempt and perhaps the captain as well for giving the order (and the navigator and engineer choosing to follow it). Multiple points of failure just really sells the idea that the TPK deserved to happen vs. being a random fluke.

* exception example; you’re running a meat grinder dungeon with players rolling up new characters every few minutes and describing the cruel and unusual deaths of these characters they haven’t even bothered to name is half the fun).

Bedrockbrendan

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Re: TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2021, 02:33:05 PM »
Personally I love stuff like this in games. It makes it more interesting, more exciting, and often gives you a great tale to tell. I think it would come down to the probabilities and how frequently it comes up.

Svenhelgrim

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Re: TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2021, 02:44:07 PM »
When the PC’s ship misjumps, that should be an adventure unto itself. 

There will be searching for spare parts to repair the damaged systems.  Searching for fuel.  Skill chrcks to go EVA and repair the stuff on the hull.  Possible exploration of previously undiscovered worlds, perhaps a graveyard of ships that got lost in that same spot due to mis-jumps. 

Something like that doesn’t have to end the game.

mAcular Chaotic

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Re: TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2021, 03:49:20 PM »
Automatic TPKs are bad, but as far as a TPK happening because of one character's mistake... that sounds more like a decision.

For example, let's say the party is level 1 and sneaking past an owlbear. Fighting it means they're surely doomed or near doomed. One player gets the bright idea to throw a stone at the owlbear for laughs. The owlbear wakes up and kills all the party members in its fury.

Should the rest of the party have suffered from that player's decision?
My serious answer as a GM; the owlbear unleashes it’s full fury during the first round on the offending idiot who threw the rock, even if it’s wasting attacks on the corpse.

If the rest of the party takes that round to flee, they survive and the owlbear enjoys its meal. If they instead attack the owlbear then the dice fall where they may, but the other players at least got a choice in the outcome.

My basic principle is that PC death should not, generally, come down to a single point of failure over which a PC has no control (and unless the dice are loaded that includes any single dice roll). A player misses their perception check and is instantly crushed by a falling rock is certainly a realistic outcome, but it’s not a particularly fun one generally.*

But if they also get some sort “Dodge” check to avoid the falling rock, you’re now up to two points of failure. If there’s a damage roll reflecting how the rock struck them (low damage they actually dodged after all but bruised or tore a muscle in the effort... medium damage a limb might be caught and crushed... etc.) you’re now up to three points of failure.

Even better is if the PC has some sort of choice to make; the rock starts to fall and they can either dive for the closest point (low difficulty, maybe even automatic) and be separated from the party by the rock or they can dive the further distance back to the party (higher difficulty) but be with the party presuming they succeed. Now their death isn’t random bad luck, it was the choice to go for the higher difficulty path that doomed them.

For a group TPK I’d really need it to involve failures from multiple group members (probably not all, but more than one) for failure to occur. Like put the TPK on the table for a rushed jump from a cold engine start. Now the navigator AND the engineer have to be cutting corners on the attempt and perhaps the captain as well for giving the order (and the navigator and engineer choosing to follow it). Multiple points of failure just really sells the idea that the TPK deserved to happen vs. being a random fluke.

* exception example; you’re running a meat grinder dungeon with players rolling up new characters every few minutes and describing the cruel and unusual deaths of these characters they haven’t even bothered to name is half the fun).

Yeah I said "TPK" but it's more like "one PC does something stupid that starts an encounter everyone tries to fight through and suffers for it." Maybe it's not even a TPK but 1-2 PCs die that wasn't even the instigator.

In fact, that's exactly what happened in that situation because it was from one of my games.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.

robertliguori

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Re: TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #70 on: June 22, 2021, 02:20:47 PM »
Really, I think putting this into the game in the first place is the problem.  If astrogation is meant to be a non-trap or non-emergency option in the game world, it should not have a random chance of wiping the ship.  Doing this means that you're forcing a PC to have this skill if you want to engage with the system.

If you want to be old-school, be old-school.  Why not look at actual historic voyages, and make the check to successfuly make it through your hyperspace-du-jour a series of checks, requiring expertise from multiple non-exclusive skill sets, so that making it through the void is inherently something you need a crew (or party!) of skilled, highly-risk-tolerant experts for?

If you expect a game to include both social courtly ballroom drama, back-alley knife fights, and heavy-weapon battlefield combat, then you need to make sure that if you have the Diplomat, Shiv Artist, and Tank Jockey classes, that all of those classes can at least contribute in their non-specialist encounters, unless you want your players to be bored when they're not in the one type of situation their class is good at.  And likewise, if you want to make astrogation a challenge which can wipe the party, then you should damn well include a good amount of mechanics to let all of your expected character types engage with it.  Include steps like hull inspection and delicate micro-maneuvers in nullspace and the sheer grit to will yourself upright and conscious to make it to the emergency stop control when you hit a nerve-flaying warp storm, to turn what would have been a lost vessel into a badly off-course one (and one badly-fried PC who made the effort).

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #71 on: June 22, 2021, 03:13:09 PM »
Do you allow the rest of the party to benefit from one player's decision?

Well the issue with random chance death, is your payers benefiting from decisions is memorable. But benefitting/ suffering from mandetory random chance (the only way to bypass or reduce is to just not play the game), is dull.

Spinachcat

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Re: TPK for One Character's Mistake Too Much?
« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2021, 11:09:47 PM »
I'm a gleefully murderous GM and I rarely have TPKs happen.

I'm cool with the idea that players make costly mistakes and the dice can be cruel, but on the flip side, players sometimes do dumb shit and the dice gods love them for it.

Traveller has misjumps. They're quite lethal. That's why salvage missions exist.

It's also why quick chargen exists.