I've been thinking about tools x toys lately.

I always like RPG toolboxes: the 1e DMG, books full of random tables, ideas, etc. I used to play GURPS because "you can do anything" with it, or create entire worlds. In fact, that's what got me in love with RPGs in the first place.

Most of my books are about tools: random tables, mechanics, etc. For example, I didn't write a monster manual (well, 100 undead is almost that, but not quite), but a monster generator (Teratogencion). I didn't write new B/X classes, but feats so you can build your own classes. I didn't create many new spells, but I did put together a few magic systems. I didn't publish my setting but I did publish a small PDF on how to create your own setting.

"Why would you want us to do imagining for you", as gygax said?

It seems that lists of spells, monsters and classes are fairly popular. And I haven't been creating my own adventures and monsters lately. Instead, I've been using published modules and even my (many) monster books are unused in the shelf. Still, I use my own (half finished) setting, although I have used Ravnica and Westeros in the past.

And I enjoy DCC modules tremendously, I don't think we would have the same fun if I had to write every single adventure.

OTOH, core rulebooks are apparently extremely popular - which makes little sense, as you'd only need one to play for years, but you could go through dozens of adventures, and a single system could have dozens of different settings (especially D&D).

Everybody is very busy nowadays, me included - could it been that toolboxes are becoming obsolete?

Do you prefer toys that are already assembled, or tools to build your own? LEGO or playmobil? Many completely miniatures or a 3d printer? Or do you buy anything as long as the quality is good?

You should be charged with a felony for the thread title.

But I like your content. I'll read this tomorrow when the bourbon fog lifts.

Greetings!

I am definitely a "Tool Box" kind of GM. Having said that, I also like some of the other stuff, too. I'm more "Tool Box" though.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

For me it's all about time. I have no trouble with inspiration, although I know some folks do.

I really have all the game systems I need. And I hate learning new systems anyway. Doesn't mean that I won't hope you'll buy a system from me though. ;-)

But if you're going to sell me something it has to save me time. I'd much prefer an adventure over anything else. Why? Because (hopefully) I can slot it in, improvising or modding the thing. But you've saved me a ton of time.

I bought Yoon Suin. Sounded like something cool I could drop into an existing campaign. Then when I got it I learned that a large part of it was random tables. With the usual author note, "See? It's old school, and you can make it Your Own (TM)." Bah. I got cranky and let the author know that I'd just wasted my money. Save me time, or don't bother me.

And of course, that's just me.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 29, 2023, 10:22:19 PM
"Why would you want us to do imagining for you", as gygax said?

Hate this take. May as well ask why read a book or watch a movie when you can imagine something in your head for yourself.

QuoteDo you prefer toys that are already assembled, or tools to build your own? LEGO or playmobil? Many completely miniatures or a 3d printer? Or do you buy anything as long as the quality is good?

Minis are a great comparison. I have minis I've painted myself, and prepaints that I've bought because painting a mini takes a fair bit of time and effort.
Same thing with RPGs. I sometimes buy stuff just to part it out for other adventures, and sometimes I run it complete.

I've been doing my own adapted rules, NPCs, monsters, & adventures for my Dragonbane: Xoth campaign http://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/03/sword-sorcery-cultures-for-dragonbane.html , which I ran again yesterday. I absolutely love it - love Xoth, love Dipur (the home city, free at xoth.net), love Dragonbane.

The thing is though, I'm taking Dragonbane monsters as a base, then building off them to create new stuff. I take the Xoth stuff and use it for inspiration. I'm using existing S&S art to inspire me. I'm making new things, but I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. I feel inspired by what they did, to make my own.

For example - it's far far easier for me to take an existing Dragonbane monster, and a cool Brocal Remohi S&S monster pic like this one -



- and with that create the 'Tauran', using elements of the Dragonbane Minotaur & Giant stat blocks, than it would be for me to stat it whole cloth. I don't find monster creation tables inspiring at all; what inspires me are worked-through examples.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 30, 2023, 02:05:13 AM
Minis are a great comparison. I have minis I've painted myself, and prepaints that I've bought because painting a mini takes a fair bit of time and effort.

Yeah. I do love painting minis, even bought a display cabinet recently - http://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/03/new-display-cabinet.html - but I also buy ready-painted minis, especially when I find nicely done stuff like some of the Wizkids ones. And I really do not like having to assemble minis myself. Anything more than just gluing it to a base, is a serious deterrent. I got a bunch of kits from China recently, I think they're mostly Kingdom Death knock-offs, and they're insanely complicated to assemble, so much so that it could be a very long time before I feel up to getting them all done, and I leave out the faffiest bits entirely. I'm certainly not planning to buy a 3D printer, though I admire my friend Kimberly's dedication to mastering the one she owns. Conversely I do a lot of 2D printing & laminating, I spent several days recently turning 23 Dyson Logos dungeon geomorphs into minis-scale battle maps ready for the tabletop.

So I guess there's a certain level for everyone, a "too much work" and an "I could do better myself", and a sweet spot between the two.

Oh, definitely toolbox.

My current homebrew, "shops" are actually item creation tools the players use. The GM just describes the shop by limiting the rarity of the items available and if certain options are unavailable, then the players use the shop to make the items they want. As there are no dice involved in these creation tools, the GM doesn't usually need to manually oversee the operation. For example, if the players walk into a weapons shop, the GM may say that the shop doesn't offer Masterwork or higher rarity weapons, and doesn't offer poisons.

And I think that's really the key; you don't want to require the GM to be the one using your tools constantly. You want to spread the usage around so players can make what they want and the GM can just do occasional flavor or sanity checks

Here is another example form an old post:

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/06/one-million-things-in-one-single-table.html



And this is one example of PC would could get using the tables in the book (I did actually roll this):

[Format #1]
Name: Odo
Background: barbarian
Skill: thievery
Fighting style: bow
Armor: chain
Equipment style: Spiked
Flaw: lust
Motivation: Pride (family)
Appearance: Flamboyant

And here is the "ready to use" version:

[Format #2]
Odo is a barbarian. He looks thin, tall, with strong muscles. He is stealthy and fights with a bow that matches his height. He wears leather armor and spiked pauldrons. While travelling through civilized lands to womanize (his favorite hobby), he acquired a flamboyant look, dying his long hairs and beard a bright blue, and wearing multiple precious rings. He fights for the honor of his family, although his family forgot about him years ago, when he left the clan. One day he hopes to come back rich and famous to prove everyone he is worthy.

Format #2 is a lot more useful if you need a quick NPC on the fly. But, of course, now you'd have a dozen characters per page, instead of millions.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 30, 2023, 02:05:13 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 29, 2023, 10:22:19 PM
"Why would you want us to do imagining for you", as gygax said?

Hate this take. May as well ask why read a book or watch a movie when you can imagine something in your head for yourself.

QuoteDo you prefer toys that are already assembled, or tools to build your own? LEGO or playmobil? Many completely miniatures or a 3d printer? Or do you buy anything as long as the quality is good?

Minis are a great comparison. I have minis I've painted myself, and prepaints that I've bought because painting a mini takes a fair bit of time and effort.
Same thing with RPGs. I sometimes buy stuff just to part it out for other adventures, and sometimes I run it complete.

I kinda agree about the Gygax quote. Of course a book should give you solutions to the problems it causes. I just think - and maybe that was the point of the quote - that a minimum of imagination is required to play RPGs, and blind adherence to RAW is not expected.

Yeah, I mentioned minis because I'm in the same situation: loved to paint them, then switched to pre-painted, and now I barely even use them.

Quote from: S'mon on April 30, 2023, 03:15:45 AM
I've been doing my own adapted rules, NPCs, monsters, & adventures for my Dragonbane: Xoth campaign http://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/03/sword-sorcery-cultures-for-dragonbane.html , which I ran again yesterday. I absolutely love it - love Xoth, love Dipur (the home city, free at xoth.net), love Dragonbane.

The thing is though, I'm taking Dragonbane monsters as a base, then building off them to create new stuff. I take the Xoth stuff and use it for inspiration. I'm using existing S&S art to inspire me. I'm making new things, but I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. I feel inspired by what they did, to make my own.

For example - it's far far easier for me to take an existing Dragonbane monster, and a cool Brocal Remohi S&S monster pic like this one -



- and with that create the 'Tauran', using elements of the Dragonbane Minotaur & Giant stat blocks, than it would be for me to stat it whole cloth. I don't find monster creation tables inspiring at all; what inspires me are worked-through examples.

An interesting take too. Sometimes I get inspired by finished examples I won't use - and art, books, etc. It is good having something to extrapolate from.

Your Xoth campaign looks pretty cool, BTW.

Tools are great.   Tools that take longer to setup, use, and put away than they do to use, not so much.  I know, with most gaming tools, it's not quite that stark.

I like random tables, for example.  I use them a lot.  I seldom find a random table done by someone else very helpful in my games, and those big books of random this and that are practically useless to me.  It's too little information on a single item to make browsing it enjoyable for ideas and too many entries to just soak the whole thing in. 

Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 29, 2023, 10:22:19 PM
OTOH, core rulebooks are apparently extremely popular - which makes little sense, as you'd only need one to play for years, but you could go through dozens of adventures, and a single system could have dozens of different settings (especially D&D).

It's possible that I'm misunderstanding this comment. Why wouldn't core rulebooks be popular? If you mean in terms of units sold, that's because it's usually the only book purchased by non-GMs. I'm guessing you don't mean that, though. Do you mean people will buy core rulebooks for multiple games rather than more supplements for a game they already have? I think that's largely curiosity, and a case of chasing the dragon. Chronic core-rulebook buyers (of which I absolutely am one) tend, I think, to be people who have not yet found a game they're totally satisfied with. We don't have the time or inclination to write our own game from scratch, so we buy any game that looks like it might be the one we're looking for.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 29, 2023, 10:22:19 PM
"Why would you want us to do imagining for you", as gygax said?

As others have said, the obvious response to that is "What am I paying you for, then?".

As soon as you're publishing something for a price, there's a question of value-for-money. This is a real case of mileage varying from person to person. I think it's largely a question of what each individual finds to be easy or difficult.

For example, random tables like the one you posted above are almost completely useless to me. The problem is that most random tables are there to provide the flavor (descriptions, personalities, backstories, quest hooks etc.). I find that sort of thing very easy to make up, even on the fly, and I'm also very particular about how my game world is flavored. So flavor tables are doing a task I could easily do myself, and would probably have to redo anyway after using them.

On the other hand, the more mechanical side of adventure design: making maps, building stat blocks, setting check difficulties, etc. That stuff is more time-consuming and to me at least, a bigger pain in the ass.

I don't often purchase modules myself, but I do see a value in them. What I am very likely to purchase are things like bestiaries, expanded spell lists, or optional rules. When I do purchase a module, it's going to be something that has a lot of mechanical content. If I purchase a module and just get a text description of the adventure, I'm pretty pissed off. I would not buy a random monster generator, but I might buy a more procedural one.

Let me trade in the toy-based analogy for a food-based one: I don't always feel like cooking my own dinner, but I also don't want to go to the fancy restaurant and get the chef's special. I'll go to the buffet and load my plate up, but I still expect the food to already be cooked.

Quote from: ForgottenF on April 30, 2023, 12:12:49 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 29, 2023, 10:22:19 PM
OTOH, core rulebooks are apparently extremely popular - which makes little sense, as you'd only need one to play for years, but you could go through dozens of adventures, and a single system could have dozens of different settings (especially D&D).

It's possible that I'm misunderstanding this comment. Why wouldn't core rulebooks be popular? If you mean in terms of units sold, that's because it's usually the only book purchased by non-GMs. I'm guessing you don't mean that, though. Do you mean people will buy core rulebooks for multiple games rather than more supplements for a game they already have? I think that's largely curiosity, and a case of chasing the dragon. Chronic core-rulebook buyers (of which I absolutely am one) tend, I think, to be people who have not yet found a game they're totally satisfied with. We don't have the time or inclination to write our own game from scratch, so we buy any game that looks like it might be the one we're looking for.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 29, 2023, 10:22:19 PM
"Why would you want us to do imagining for you", as gygax said?

As others have said, the obvious response to that is "What am I paying you for, then?".

As soon as you're publishing something for a price, there's a question of value-for-money. This is a real case of mileage varying from person to person. I think it's largely a question of what each individual finds to be easy or difficult.

For example, random tables like the one you posted above are almost completely useless to me. The problem is that most random tables are there to provide the flavor (descriptions, personalities, backstories, quest hooks etc.). I find that sort of thing very easy to make up, even on the fly, and I'm also very particular about how my game world is flavored. So flavor tables are doing a task I could easily do myself, and would probably have to redo anyway after using them.

On the other hand, the more mechanical side of adventure design: making maps, building stat blocks, setting check difficulties, etc. That stuff is more time-consuming and to me at least, a bigger pain in the ass.

I don't often purchase modules myself, but I do see a value in them. What I am very likely to purchase are things like bestiaries, expanded spell lists, or optional rules. When I do purchase a module, it's going to be something that has a lot of mechanical content. If I purchase a module and just get a text description of the adventure, I'm pretty pissed off. I would not buy a random monster generator, but I might buy a more procedural one.

Let me trade in the toy-based analogy for a food-based one: I don't always feel like cooking my own dinner, but I also don't want to go to the fancy restaurant and get the chef's special. I'll go to the buffet and load my plate up, but I still expect the food to already be cooked.

With tabletop games, there's a great deal of paradoxical value. By this I mean that players and GMs intuitively equate volume and book size with value, but more often than not the highest value RPGs are the ones with the lowest page counts...or at least, relatively low page counts. In general, it takes a more experienced game designer putting more effort into a game to reduce the amount of stuff in it without harming the game experience, and any old intern can add a few dozen feats for a game already at 100+ pages of content.

For me, the question isn't really about how much work you have to put in, but if the process itself is fun, or at least painless relative to what it does. I personally don't care for bestiaries or encyclopedias of equipment because I find them a chore to sift through. I also don't particularly like random tables; I view them as a lazy game design habit from 30+ years ago which occasionally has value, but usually for every ounce of effort a random table saves the GM, it introduces RNG disruption.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 29, 2023, 10:22:19 PM
Do you prefer toys that are already assembled, or tools to build your own? LEGO or playmobil? Many completely miniatures or a 3d printer? Or do you buy anything as long as the quality is good?

Yes, which one depends on mood, system, or genre.

When I'm new to a system or genre a good adventure or creation helps a lot. I wish the excellent Psi Wars blog had been around when I first got GURPS as a worked example (Dungeon Fantasy serves as well). It also would be a good guide to Hero or other big, sprawling tools boxes.

Also, remember, any toy is a tool. I can't be the only person who took apart toys to see how they worked and made better toys. One of my annoyances with the original Toy Story is it made a villian of the kid who took toys apart and reassmbled them into new things. Yes, he was creepy and destructive, but plenty of us did the same for good.

So give me tools and toys. I'll see what I can come up with.