Some exerpts here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060303a) Looks cool.
Opinions?
Does this new book seem like a balanced resource for both players and DM's?
Looks very interesting. I shall check this out.
Hmm, this report is unreliable, it seems it was mixed in with another:Quote- Table of Contents and Introduction
- Pact Magic Introduction (from Chapter 2: People of Waterdeep)
- Vestige: Acererak (from Chapter 2: People of Waterdeep)
- Vestige: Geryon (from Chapter 3: Prestige Classes)
- Shadow Magic Introduction (from Chapter 5: Adventures in Waterdeep)
- Noctumancer(from Chapter 6: Monsters of Waterdeep)
- Weapon Special Ability: Shadow Striking (from Chapter 6: Monsters of Waterdeep)
- Truename Magic Introduction (from Chapter 6: Monsters of Waterdeep)
- Lexicon of the Evolving Mind (from Chapter 6: Monsters of Waterdeep)
- Loquasphinx (from Chapter 6: Monsters of Waterdeep)
Quote from: Ragnarok N RollDoes this new book seem like a balanced resource for both players and DM's?
Yes in the sense that it will balance and fit in well with existing material I believe. Much like MoI did. No in the sense that the more ways you can do something, the more ways you can combine various ways to do something into an uber combo.
I think it'll be a neat book and magic system, but it'll likely be a stand alone product and without more support it probably won't go anywhere or do anything. That's unfortunate.
I'll end up getting it.
LOL!!
QuoteBeings that cannot exist inhabit a place that cannot be. Cursed by gods and feared by mortals, these entities fall outside the boundaries of life, death, and undeath. They are untouchable by even the most powerful deities, though they can be summoned and used by the weakest mortal.
The practitioner of pact magic contacts these alien forces by means of special symbols and rituals. Once a summoning is complete, he strikes a bargain with the summoned being to gain great supernatural power.
Hello Cthulhu mythos. I woner if this is going to to try and tie into their previous stuff about the Far Realm.
Quote from: KnightcrawlerHello Cthulhu mythos. I woner if this is going to to try and tie into their previous stuff about the Far Realm.
Interestingly, I think that they're aming for more than just Far-Realm Lovcraftian mythology, since last month's Dragon magazine gave an example of a pact-magic entity: Kas (of vecna dismemberment fame).
agreed. though one or more of these vestiges may be like a lovecraftian entity, most of them seem to have entirely different personalities.
Hmm.... color me interrested, anything that has a lovecraftian feel to it is more than welcome in my campaign.
Which reminds me, I have to save up to get Heroes of Horror...
THe pact magic interested me at first b/c I have been looking for something like this for my constantly re-tooled Witch class - but looking at the examples - it was not what I thought it would be.
I was looking for a class that gains its spells by means of pacts with outsiders and the like. . .
I'll be getting it. My biggest interest is in Shadow magic, as I've had a niche set aside for that for 8-10 years, and just no time to do up the mechanics.
Quote from: KrishnathHmm.... color me interrested, anything that has a lovecraftian feel to it is more than welcome in my campaign.
it might be considered lovecraftian in the sense that you are contacting mysterious entities from another place, and serving them in exchange for promised power. other than that, not really.
Truenames and shadow magic are interesting prospects. I'm wary about pacts, though.
Quote from: BOZit might be considered lovecraftian in the sense that you are contacting mysterious entities from another place, and serving them in exchange for promised power. other than that, not really.
We'll have to see how they handle that. Could have some good stuff. But its not a necessity on my list. Its on the look at and see.
Quote from: BOZit might be considered lovecraftian in the sense that you are contacting mysterious entities from another place, and serving them in exchange for promised power. other than that, not really.
Ah, but the kernel of the flavor is there, it just have to be slightly modified for ones own campaign, all one really has to do is change the names of some of the enteties, and bingo, instant lovecraftian feel. :D
Quote from: KrishnathAh, but the kernel of the flavor is there, it just have to be slightly modified for ones own campaign, all one really has to do is change the names of some of the enteties, and bingo, instant lovecraftian feel. :D
This is pretty much what I'm thinking. A little tweaking of the pact magic and it could make an excellent major campaign thread.
Quote from: KrishnathAh, but the kernel of the flavor is there, it just have to be slightly modified for ones own campaign, all one really has to do is change the names of some of the enteties, and bingo, instant lovecraftian feel. :D
oh, if that's what you're going for, then it will probably suit you well. ;)
Yep, I'll be acquiring this. Hope it's better than Magic of Incarnum.
that wouldn't take much, would it?
I'm very warey of the book for a couple of reasons:
1) I've been warey of the books where WoTC seems to be branching out and away from the core mechanics.
2) D&D already has two very functional magic systems (magic & psionics). It's already getting really cluttered, and the introduction of more systems will only increase that problem.
Quote from: Aelfinn2) D&D already has two very functional magic systems (magic & psionics). It's already getting really cluttered, and the introduction of more systems will only increase that problem.
This is the same reason I'm not overly enthusiastic about this. I mean hell, they already did Magic of Incarnum or whatever its called. :confused:
Quote from: Aelfinn2) D&D already has two very functional magic systems (magic & psionics). It's already getting really cluttered, and the introduction of more systems will only increase that problem.
I'd like to see about 4-5 substantially different magic systems. I don't much care for the mechanics of priests and wizards being pretty much interchangable.
Quote from: SobekI'd like to see about 4-5 substantially different magic systems. I don't much care for the mechanics of priests and wizards being pretty much interchangable.
The best way I can think of doing this, or at least the way with the least headaches is to print all spells with optional statistics for the various magic systems. You know, things like Spellcraft DCs to cast, mana points that are interchangeable regardless of whether you have a mana pool, pull it off of your Strength or Consitution or whatever as temp damage, etc. Keep the spell-effects the same, but make sure the stat block for the spell covers all systems involved.
What I did was get rid of priests as a spellcasting class altogether, and ported over the spells that were substantially different from the Arcane ones. There simply isn't any need for Clerics as a spellcasting class. It's almost complete redundancy.
My gods, i'm Pimping AE today.
The spell divisions are broken down fairly interestingly in Arcana Evolved/Unearthed, into simple, complex, and exotic/unique spells. I think the reasons this is so interesting is that it allows a comjplete re-working of what the classes are all about - though it doesn't hurt that the Diamond Throne setting is designed to be functional with out the massive levels of Divine Interference we're used to seeing in D&D.
Quote from: KnightcrawlerThis is the same reason I'm not overly enthusiastic about this. I mean hell, they already did Magic of Incarnum or whatever its called. :confused:
I don't think they're the same thing. Incarnum is sort of the force from Starwars d20 turned into a D&D fantasy type...thing..sort of. I looked it over and wasn't into it.
Quote from: Ragnarok N RollI don't think they're the same thing. Incarnum is sort of the force from Starwars d20 turned into a D&D fantasy type...thing..sort of. I looked it over and wasn't into it.
Everything glows blue! Everything!
It's like they looked at the crystal fetish from the Psionics book and decided to apply it to the color blue.
I think offering new ways of doing thing in terms of rule sets for magic is a good thing.
I think the more modular D&D becomes the easier it will be for people who enjoy so-called, low, high epic magic or whatever other flavor to run their games in the same basic system.
Quote from: AelfinnI'm very warey of the book for a couple of reasons:
1) I've been warey of the books where WoTC seems to be branching out and away from the core mechanics.
2) D&D already has two very functional magic systems (magic & psionics). It's already getting really cluttered, and the introduction of more systems will only increase that problem.
It's only cluttered if you try to use all of them at once. Don't.
Quote from: Sojourner JudasEverything glows blue! Everything!
It's like they looked at the crystal fetish from the Psionics book and decided to apply it to the color blue.
Magic of Incarnum is the worst WOTC product I've ever seen in terms of art and fluff. The races with the possible exception of the fey race were total garbage as well. Leaving...the mechanics, which were interesting I must admit. I haven't seen the rules in action yet, so I can't give it the thorough thumbs down it is begging for.
Quote from: Vermicious KnidMagic of Incarnum is the worst WOTC product I've ever seen in terms of art and fluff.
Look up Unapprochable East for Forgotten Realms, it trumps MoI for terrible fluff and art.
Incarnum is a wonderful idea poorly implimented. The system has some real merits and solid ideas, but the idea of blue glowy stuff coupled with uninspired backstories meant an otherwise great product became very ho-hum. Pity.
Quote from: JanosIncarnum is a wonderful idea poorly implimented. The system has some real merits and solid ideas, but the idea of blue glowy stuff coupled with uninspired backstories meant an otherwise great product became very ho-hum. Pity.
I think what I hated about Incarnum is it really had no fantasy precedent. Psionics at least has some Eastern mysticism that works regarding it, which I wish they'd drawn more thoroughly upon in the 3/3.5 representations. Regardless, the notion of psychic powers is established and worth revisiting.
The trouble with Incarnum is they tried to make up something completely new, and failed miserably. They used a lot of the leftover Eastern mysticism that could've been used to enhance psionics, and they yet again made the mistake of treating it as a completely seperate source of power meaning they had to reinvent the wheel for the umpteenth time regarding how it interacts with existing magic.
As a result, a lot of the justification for Incarnum requires your campaign to accept Psionics as a given, because Incarnum bends over backwards to distinguish itself from Psionics, and how it's a power of the body whereas Psionics is a power of the mind.
Which makes things even more of a muddle than they were before.
The types of magic they're touting for this new book seem to be a lot better grounded. Thematically, they have much more basis both in a generic D&D setting and in fantasy and mysticism as a whole. You don't have to retool your campaign setting to accomodate them, as they build off of existing concepts and can be treated as merely obscure practices within a campaign world.
It's a better approach, in my opinion.
(OOC)
I'd like that next time WotC tries up a new subsystem, rather than do what they did with Psionics and Incarnum, they try not putting in any new race nor base class.
Something that would be skill & feat based, maybe. But not class- or race-based.
Touchstones and rituals are more to my liking. They're far easier to integrate to the existing game.
I have to admit that the article in Dragon -- unlike most of the pimping articles -- did get me interested in the Tome. Not Kas, though -- Primus. The idea of selling your soul to a being of pure law is kind of cool and very different than the usually soul selling routine. The article left few clues as to how the rules actually work, though, so I'm only at the stage of intrigued, and not "ready to buy".
I found the blurbs on the WotC site to really get me interested in the Pact magic. I'd thought about adding loa to my game, but there was no system even remotely appropriate. I think pact magic may fit that bill, though, as well as the Faustian soul-selling.
I have to say that references to Kas and, damn, Dahlver-Nar ?!?!?! have me intrigued.
digging into old nostalgia-stuff... in a good way. :)
I like the Kas and Acherak (lord I can't spell that) references for pact magic that i've seen. It shows that that even though WotC seems to be dropping support for Greyhawk, there's still plenty of material from Greyhawk that they are using in order to fill in interesting concepts.
Quote from: Sojourner JudasI think what I hated about Incarnum is it really had no fantasy precedent. Psionics at least has some Eastern mysticism that works regarding it, which I wish they'd drawn more thoroughly upon in the 3/3.5 representations. Regardless, the notion of psychic powers is established and worth revisiting.
I don't think it has to have a fantasy precedent to be interesting. In fact that is one of the major draws of Incarnum to me. But I agree that a lot of the names were basically psionic cast-offs. I think they created a solid system, but the names (i.e. the fluff), was terrible. Taken as a mechanic with a new source of power beyond the "souls" or without psionics in the world, and I think it provides some fun options unlike regular spellcasting.
Psionics at it's core is really just point based magic. Incarnum is a whole new system. I think that's the strength rather than the weakness.