Looking at the list of highlights, in the listing description on Amazon; the first highlight was "over 600 pages of rules", and the last highlight was "streamlined rules".

I kid you not!!!  Haha!!!

Also, the Paladin class is not one of the listed classes.  They killed off Paladins.  I saw a Champion class listed.  I guess the Champion can be a Paladin without a moral code?

I hate to comment too much, as I really haven't followed the development of PF2, but..

(1) I would hate for Paladin to go away. Seems like it's a pretty iconic class. On the other hand, 5E's "paladins" which can be many alignments other than Law-Good seem like a step away from the iconic, so maybe it's just a class rename.

(2) I agree that 600 pages seems excessive. I know that many rulebooks consume lots of pages through spells, and hopefully that's where their page count comes from. As I get older I have less and less desire to wade through lengthy rulebooks.

Pali is still around sort of. they split it into 3 different classes. I can't remember if they are all some flavor of good or some flavor of lawful, but all 3 are basically the alignment flavor of paladin. the moral code is still there. just opened up into other options, but not as fully as if they just made Paladin the warrior of god for any god no matter the alignment.

Quote from: Razor 007;1096282Looking at the list of highlights, in the listing description on Amazon; the first highlight was "over 600 pages of rules", and the last highlight was "streamlined rules".

I kid you not!!!  Haha!!!

Also, the Paladin class is not one of the listed classes.  They killed off Paladins.  I saw a Champion class listed.  I guess the Champion can be a Paladin without a moral code?

Paladin might just be an NPC encounter in the woods.

But, ya. RPG books can get bigger in setting, while trimming their systems.

Quote from: finarvyn;1096284I hate to comment too much, as I really haven't followed the development of PF2, but..

(1) I would hate for Paladin to go away. Seems like it's a pretty iconic class. On the other hand, 5E's "paladins" which can be many alignments other than Law-Good seem like a step away from the iconic, so maybe it's just a class rename.

(2) I agree that 600 pages seems excessive. I know that many rulebooks consume lots of pages through spells, and hopefully that's where their page count comes from. As I get older I have less and less desire to wade through lengthy rulebooks.

Actually 640 pages, in a single binding.

People seem to get bent out of shape over having multiple books BUT it can help to have something concise to hand to players. Of course, this also limits sales...

There should be a Players Guide and GMs Guide. The PG should have example spells, but the spells should be in a Spell Compendium (Grimoire, Book of Spells, Spellonomicon...).

There are so many AND only relevant to spell-casters. I like the HERO system. I like GURPS. You don't hand people "all the rules" and hope they want to play with you. You hand them HERO basic, or GURPS light. You start simple and build from there. There's nothing wrong with an encyclopedia of rules! Just you know, make it in volumes so it's easier to peruse / look up info.

Edited to add: Also, since PF2E is inevitably going to have a ton of supplements, the Basic Player's Guide should have a handful of iconic classes, then you expand on those in individual class-focused books. I would go so far as to go the HERO route with PF; Character Creation book, and a Combat & Adventuring book. Put together an awesome GM guide catered to all the things a GM needs without the added player-facing pages weighing it down. Then your class-focused books are divided into two "sections". The first expands on Character Creation, the second adds new rules to Combat & Adventuring.

600 Pages!! I can tell you from experience that without a basic boxed set, simpler book, etc. PF2e is going to be a PF Enthusiast only game... I like crunchy games, and I like rules, but most players these days don't.

Quote from: Razor 007;1096282Looking at the list of highlights, in the listing description on Amazon; the first highlight was "over 600 pages of rules", and the last highlight was "streamlined rules".

I kid you not!!!  Haha!!!

Without seeing what exactly is making up the 600 pages of rules, yes you can have stream lined rules in a big book.  After all it is not "stream lined rules and no other options" is it?

QuoteAlso, the Paladin class is not one of the listed classes.  They killed off Paladins.  I saw a Champion class listed.  I guess the Champion can be a Paladin without a moral code?

They did not kill the Paladin dude.  The Paladin is a Lawful Good Champion.

In the core book there will also be a Neutral Good and Chaotic Good Champion but you know that there are going to be Champions of different alignments coming down the pike at some stage.

Quote from: trechriron;1096290People seem to get bent out of shape over having multiple books BUT it can help to have something concise to hand to players. Of course, this also limits sales...

There should be a Players Guide and GMs Guide. The PG should have example spells, but the spells should be in a Spell Compendium (Grimoire, Book of Spells, Spellonomicon...).

There are so many AND only relevant to spell-casters. I like the HERO system. I like GURPS. You don't hand people "all the rules" and hope they want to play with you. You hand them HERO basic, or GURPS light. You start simple and build from there. There's nothing wrong with an encyclopedia of rules! Just you know, make it in volumes so it's easier to peruse / look up info.

Edited to add: Also, since PF2E is inevitably going to have a ton of supplements, the Basic Player's Guide should have a handful of iconic classes, then you expand on those in individual class-focused books. I would go so far as to go the HERO route with PF; Character Creation book, and a Combat & Adventuring book. Put together an awesome GM guide catered to all the things a GM needs without the added player-facing pages weighing it down. Then your class-focused books are divided into two "sections". The first expands on Character Creation, the second adds new rules to Combat & Adventuring.

600 Pages!! I can tell you from experience that without a basic boxed set, simpler book, etc. PF2e is going to be a PF Enthusiast only game... I like crunchy games, and I like rules, but most players these days don't.

640 pages in the core rulebook, AND a separate Gamemastery Guide launched simultaneously!!!

Quote from: Razor 007;1096293640 pages in the core rulebook, AND a separate Gamemastery Guide launched simultaneously!!!

You mean the Gamemastery Guide due for release in 2020?

Quote from: Shasarak;1096294You mean the Gamemastery Guide due for release in 2020?

Well, it's still indicative of the core not being all inclusive of a PHB & DMG.

Quote from: Razor 007;1096296Well, it's still indicative of the core not being all inclusive of a PHB & DMG.

If it is anything like the Gamemastery guide put out in 2010 then it is not the same as a DMG.

QuoteWhether you are a new Game Master or experienced storyteller, you can always find new ways to hone your craft. This 256-page Pathfinder Second Edition rulebook contains a wealth of new information, tools, and rules systems to add to your game. Inside you will find handy advice for building your own adventures, designing towns, and creating vibrant characters alongside rules systems for dramatic chases, thrilling tournaments, and deadly duels. This book also includes more 40 pages of sample nonplayer characters, from the simple town guard to the vile cultist, presented to make your job as GM that much easier!

Don't get me wrong. I'm still intrigued. I can start with PDF and decide from there...

Quote from: trechriron;1096304Don't get me wrong. I'm still intrigued. I can start with PDF and decide from there...

Hey PF2e will have a free SRD, so there is that...

But think of how JACKED we're gonna get lifting that book and holding it up to read!!!!!!

DOUBLE WIN!

Pathfinder 1st edition is 575 pages long and includes the dmg. 600 pages isn't that big of a difference.
Gamemastery guide also existed in 1st edition and was a not a dmg.