Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1064855Interesting perspective on the prequels' fighting styles. I think I agree because it does make some logical sense.




I see your Gun Kata and raise you a Gymkata.

I think I could buy the Spaghetti western gunfighting as a sort of fantasy western weapon fighting style. These guys are almost akin to the Zen Archers with how they handle gun fighting, but without the religions/philosophical angle.

Oh for sure!!! Spaghetti western gunfighting is like "iajutsu" for ranged weapons. It's sexier than bows because of the instant gratification and the visual style of those westerns parallels the highest visual abstractions of samurai duels taken to dramatic excess. The long pause where everyone is sizing each other up (Psychic Duel!) then the flinch! The closeup of the eye - one blink, the other steely with resolve! The drop of sweat running down the forehead... then the quickdraw and explosion of gunfire! The pregnant pause with the indeterminate closeup of the faces... then the invariable slump of the loser into the dirt.

It's almost its own story because the way it's shot it evokes in the mind of the summation of the relationship between the two people dueling (presuming they know one another - if not, then it's always the point of building up the bonafides of the protagonist or antagonist, in order to show how good they are). This is mythologizing at the heart of the matter.

All you have to do is imply that there is a secret technique, or a tradition, or a mysterious history at play and it automatically captures the imagination of people.

"You fought in the Clone Wars?"

"You are using Bonetti's Defense against me, ah?
"I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain. Naturally, you must suspect me to attack with Capa Ferro?"
"Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capa Ferro. Don't you?"
"Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa... which I have."

Gymkata... yeah, always be wary of a guy trying to get closer to a pommel-horse in order to fight. You gotta take him down *before* he gets spinning around on that thing. Otherwise you're DOOOOMMMED.

The issue again is making a style or form that is grounded in our settings. Then giving it the mechanical muscle to live up to those assumptions - even if it's not what people think it is. The irony here is creating a "western martial art" can be as simple as not dressing up things with Asian inflected language. But you can have all the same core conceits for why those martial arts exist.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1064821If you're talking about visual/film depictions, even taking the magical/mystical stuff out, eastern martial arts always had more of an acrobatic element.

Sure. But the idea would be to create fantasy "western" style martial arts. There is nothing saying you can't have those acrobatic elements, you just might need to emphasize something specific about the style that requires such movement. Either by conceit of the setting or the style itself.

Naming conventions I think are as big of significance to calling something "eastern" or "western" if we're talking about fantasy creations, but obviously context is important.

Calling your signature punch a Dragon Ball uppercut... isn't doing you any favors if you're trying to create a Greek Pankration inspired style, heh.

Gymkata is funny. But then, so is Capoeira, and that's real.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1065596Gymkata is funny. But then, so is Capoeira, and that's real.

And it looks awesome!

Quote from: AsenRG;1064097Gladly, when I've got more time:)!

Quote from: RPGPundit;1064221I'll be waiting with baited breath. Until then, I'll assume you've got nothing.

Don't hold your breath, you might faint.
But I just might have the time tonight.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1062808Here's the reasons:

1. In the east Technique was mythologized because each school was tied into a different philosophy or variant of a philosophy.
It's like as if there had been Roman Catholic Sword Style and Calvinist Axe Style.

That's, how to put it more mildly? Ah well: fake news:)!

Some schools in the East were tied to a particular philosophy. That was not, however, the most popular way of learning martial arts. I'm focusing on China in the following.

What were those ways, one might ask? Unless you were born connected to a strong tradition, the ways open to you were: joining the army, joining a school*, joining the bandits, joining a monastery/sect**, joining a secret society***, joining a family/settlement clan (usually by marriage, though other ways have been known), joining a roaming artists troupe, or joining the caravan guards. Of those, the army was considered to be the worst place, and the caravan guards were the best. No, sorry, it was not the monastery that was seen as the best:D! (And when Shaolin was seen as "the best", it was a major political center with vast lands, and its fighting monks were a veritable army, often armed with spears and sabres, like the regular army).
And apart from the monastery and some religious minorities/clans with their own martial arts, most of those arts were pretty much uninfluenced by "philosophy". Instead, they usually followed the usual Chinese approach where all religions were seen as more or less equal, and you prayed to whoever would get the job done (and if a righteous person, to your ancestors as well).

In short: In China, as well as in Europe, politics and economics were much, much more defining for martial arts than religion...though religion was involved - in both areas.

*Which was considered the same as the next point, according to many...including, very much, emperors and officials. There's a semi-famous quote from 1728 (the Yong-zheng emperor) issued an imperial prohibition specifically on martial arts.
The emperor condemned teachers as "drifters and idlers who refuse to work at their proper occupations" who gather with their disciples all day, leading to "gambling, drinking and brawls".
**Which, according to many people, was the same as the previous point. See: Stories of Judge Dee, any monks are automatically suspected of any crimes, child kidnapping (for ransom) very much included.
***Say, White Lotus. Can you say Triad, now? That's how things ended up for many secret societies: they became the Triads.

Quote2. The martial arts in the east were, for most of its history, tied in with concepts derived from Chinese cosmology: Qi, Yin and Yang, the Eight Element, the Five Phases; in short, when you were doing martial arts you were also manipulating the basic building blocks of reality and space/time.

No, sorry, that's simply not true: not manipulating. You're following. You're not making "magic" by performing Single Palm Change (corresponding to trigram Heavens), you're allowing "magic" to work through you. And "magic" makes you a better fighter.
The same attitude was true even when "magic" in Chinese arts was written without quotation marks, say, before the Boxer Rebellion: you allowed the spirits of heavenly immortals to inhabit your body and they made you impervious to bullets...supposedly. At least that's what (a big part of) the Boxers believed, and accounts of their ceremonies confirm it.
Also, the same is true even today in magical ceremonies of martial arts schools in Southeast Asia and elsewhere.

There were also exponents of a different approach among the Boxers - some simply wore magic talismans by the master boxers, which also had to make them invulnerable. But those were, according to accounts, just the result of non-martial arts related "spells", usually ritual ones... in RPG terms, that's just "buffing" and "items creation"! (Though admittedly, it might have been even more common...and probably even less efficient).

QuoteIn the west this wasn't going on; instead at most you might have been able to say some really great religious fighter was 'inspired/blessed by god' or something like that. But he wasn't a freaking wizard.

As demonstrated above, it isn't true of Eastern arts.
In the West, however, there was Thibault. The one who wrote the famous treatise about using the secret geometry and occult principles in fencing. His work wasn't new, it was just one of the few that went in much depth about this approach. So, if you can say someone was "manipulating the Universe with the tip of his sword", he's got as much rights to the title as any Eastern master. (Except he was an European and studied in Europe).

Of course, you can claim that the pop-culture view isn't nearly as informed, and you'd be right. But your post concerned the reasons why the pop-culture sees things a particular way...and your suggested reasons are wrong.

Instead, I've got a better suggestion why Eastern arts are seen as magical, while Western ones aren't: because for pop-heroes in the West, guns replaced magic. The Eastern heroes wield "magic" and combat techniques. The Western ones have combat techniques and guns. Cue the first Batman, Shadow, and so on.
And, as Bob Breen says in his book on fighting, "some strikes come in and out of fashion according to what is predominantly seen on the screen". The same thing would apply to magic - and in the West, it was a constant trend for centuries.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1065596Gymkata is funny. But then, so is Capoeira, and that's real.

For one thing, we agree;)!

Quote from: RPGPundit;1065596Gymkata is funny. But then, so is Capoeira, and that's real.

At least Capoeira has a reason for being the way it is, as a martial art disguised as dance.

What's Gymkata's excuse, besides being an 80s action movie?

Okay I only skimmed the thread in A nut shell my opinion it simple martial arts are no stranger in European fantasy then in Asian fantasy it just looks different.
My proof his name is little john. Likely the biggest problem with the monk is that they called it the monk if they had called it A martial artist and reflavored it some no one would have batted an eye.
In meany ways little john could be rather easily be made out of the dnd monk quarter staff and all.

Quote from: tenbones;1064376I would also include the original lightsaber fights in Star Wars, being grounded in Kendo, were cool to watch. It oddly added a gritty levity to the idea that Jedi/Sith were these guys walking around with laser swords fighting a Bushido-Blade style duel where a single cut was pretty much going to end you.

It has a strong note of Kurosawa by pure intent.

Darth Vader vs. Obi Wan
https://youtu.be/8kpHK4YIwY4

Then came Phantom Menace... and Darth Maul going full-blown Wuxia... Say what you will about those craptastic movies. The choreography, the athleticism of Ray Park, and the now - 30-year evolution of what a Force user could do - seemed fully realized on the screen. Where the original Star Wars was dueling samurai-mystic. The later trilogies made them into mythic superheroes.

Darth Maul vs. Qui-Gon/Kenobi
https://youtu.be/SKlLMRuOx10

That is the difference in scale that should be addressed. Fantasy martial arts should encompass all of these things in my opinion.

I saw A thing once where Lucas said he had the idea became that in the prequel we are seeing jedi and the height of there ability. Where as in the origenal trilogy we are seeing half robots old men and half trained kids. Hence the difference style of fighting between the 2.

Quote from: tenbones;1064414For me the original "kendo style" should be representative of low-to-mid-level skill. Wuxia-mode is super-duper high-level.

IMO, it should be the exact opposite;).

Quote from: AsenRG;1065972IMO, it should be the exact opposite;).

Welllllll... I'm not arguing taste. I can totally get behind this idea - especially between masters. I like the subtlety of it. In Avengers vs. Justice League there was a beautiful example of this between Captain America facing off against Batman.

I'm just saying - it depends on the conceits of your game. I'm erring on the side of Wuxia-style being about super-powers in play as part of Martial Arts. While the realistic kendo-style is indicative of a more real-world tradition. If you have both, I tend to like the ease of power flowing upwards.

The question of course is: what do you want in your game where your Euro-centric cultures have martial arts? What traditions and cultures spawned them? What are those conceits? Once you lay that down, you can have all the cool shit people want from Asian styles without missing a beat. But you have to build it into your setting

Quote from: tenbones;1066106Welllllll... I'm not arguing taste. I can totally get behind this idea - especially between masters. I like the subtlety of it. In Avengers vs. Justice League there was a beautiful example of this between Captain America facing off against Batman.

It's not about taste:). I'm simply going by the rule of thumb that newbies end quickly by a rookie mistake, intermediate and advanced fighters would go on for longer and longer...but very, very good fighters, unless extremely well-matched, would act intuitively, capitalizing on what isn't even a mistake, but a temporary advantage - and wouldn't allow the opponent to recover from it:).
And using the Force makes you one of those very, very good ones authomatically, because it's the Force that's guiding you. Thus, Jedi and Sith should achieve it automatically.

That, and I just prefer to play out shorter fights in my games, unless it's going to be about the fighting;).

QuoteI'm just saying - it depends on the conceits of your game. I'm erring on the side of Wuxia-style being about super-powers in play as part of Martial Arts. While the realistic kendo-style is indicative of a more real-world tradition. If you have both, I tend to like the ease of power flowing upwards.

True, but the super-powers also make the above more easily achievable.
In that regard, my preferred game for Star Wars would be StarORE:p!

QuoteThe question of course is: what do you want in your game where your Euro-centric cultures have martial arts? What traditions and cultures spawned them? What are those conceits? Once you lay that down, you can have all the cool shit people want from Asian styles without missing a beat. But you have to build it into your setting

I've always been building it into my settings, regardless of the cultures. When I was a young GM, because I loved that kind of things...and these days, it's just a reflex:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;1065701Some schools in the East were tied to a particular philosophy. That was not, however, the most popular way of learning martial arts. I'm focusing on China in the following.

What were those ways, one might ask? Unless you were born connected to a strong tradition, the ways open to you were: joining the army, joining a school*, joining the bandits, joining a monastery/sect**, joining a secret society***, joining a family/settlement clan (usually by marriage, though other ways have been known), joining a roaming artists troupe, or joining the caravan guards.

Every single one of these you mentioned were tied to a philosophical and (usually) cosmological system.

QuoteOf those, the army was considered to be the worst place, and the caravan guards were the best.

The army was considered the worst because it was the most watered-down. But even the kung fu and qi gong styles derived from the army were still derived from other teachings based on philosophical and cosmological systems.

QuoteNo, sorry, it was not the monastery that was seen as the best:D!

Did I say it was? I think you might be debating with someone else here.

QuoteAnd apart from the monastery and some religious minorities/clans with their own martial arts, most of those arts were pretty much uninfluenced by "philosophy". Instead, they usually followed the usual Chinese approach where all religions were seen as more or less equal, and you prayed to whoever would get the job done (and if a righteous person, to your ancestors as well).

OH. I see. You don't understand the difference between Chinese religion and Chinese philosophies.

QuoteIn short: In China, as well as in Europe, politics and economics were much, much more defining for martial arts than religion...though religion was involved - in both areas.

This is just a confused statement in general. I can't even grasp how you organize this in your own head. I guess you were very poorly served in some undergraduate history courses by low-caliber Marxist Teaching Assistants or something.

QuoteNo, sorry, that's simply not true: not manipulating. You're following. You're not making "magic" by performing Single Palm Change (corresponding to trigram Heavens), you're allowing "magic" to work through you. And "magic" makes you a better fighter.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the foundations of Chinese Internal Alchemy.
YOU are the alchemical furnace. The place where you manipulate the building blocks of reality is within yourself. That is what in turn ALLOWS for change to happen.

QuoteThe same attitude was true even when "magic" in Chinese arts was written without quotation marks, say, before the Boxer Rebellion: you allowed the spirits of heavenly immortals to inhabit your body and they made you impervious to bullets...supposedly. At least that's what (a big part of) the Boxers believed, and accounts of their ceremonies confirm it.

Yes, that was typical of 'salvation-based' cultivation practices (mainly derived from certain schools of Buddhist Philosophy, the same ones that would evolve into the Pure Land style schools, though in practice the Kungfu and Qigong schools that used this method didn't necessarily  have outwardly buddhist trappings).  Only about half of all cultivation practices worked that way.


As for the West, there were of course movements that were associated with combat and religion at the same time; whether you mean the Templars or much later fencing schools. And yes, you could theoretically make some connections between stuff like "the sacred geometry of fencing" with stuff like Bagua and related cultivation/martial-art esoteric schools. The difference is how endemic it was to China, vs isolated cases in the West.

.... which brings us back to the point: the West didn't mythologize its martial forms (whether religiously, culturally, or philosophically) to the extent Asia did to theirs. CHECK.

Now someone start making up some fantasy martial arts *that do that* without being too overtly Asian. GO!

Quote from: tenbones;1066417.... which brings us back to the point: the West didn't mythologize its martial forms (whether religiously, culturally, or philosophically) to the extent Asia did to theirs. CHECK.

Now someone start making up some fantasy martial arts *that do that* without being too overtly Asian. GO!

The problem is that how the West perceives it's fantasy.  Individualism, focusing on the hero, rather than the combat technique. The more you focus on the technique, the more Eastern it'll feel.

That's the whole point of this endeavor, buddy. And I don't quite agree totally with you. I do understand what you're saying...

But as I posted above - you can have a clearly European fighting tradition - see all the Fencing references and cool stuff from Zorro etc. It implies a strict doctrine of style. I'm less concerned with actual accuracy as I am of consistency. The reason the martial art should exist should be part of the culture that spawned it. OR the point of the style/tradition should be due to specific factors that justifies its perpetuation.

So I don't think that focusing on a move necessarily makes it "Eastern". Anymore than Connor MacGregor's straight-left is known as the Irish Death-Touch (it's glorious to behold). But the mere fact that we grant such connotations to a repetitive manuever - meaning for the purposes of combat that it's repeatable AND teachable makes it fodder for martial arts without having to be culturally tied to Eastern iconography.

It's all in the execution. Just like we watch Jedi clearly doing Kendo - or later Wuxia, but I don't associate it necessarily with anything grotesquely Asian. (though the choreography clearly is). Influenced? Sure.

It all depends on how how "real" vs. "cinematic" vs. "supernatural" you wanna get with it. Me? I'm greedy. I want it ALL.

Maybe it's because I'm a dang dirty otaku mall ninja but I personally like the idea of East Asian martial arts in an otherwise Western-style fantasy setting.

It's cool and sort of awesome and it all started with the Monk class in Dungeons & Dragons (starting with Supplement II: Blackmoor in 1975 and then getting expanded upon by AD&D 1E in 1978)

Also, remember the context of the time that these games first came out. The 1970's and early 1980's was the height of America's fascination with East Asian martial arts, particularly that of China and Japan.

You had people like Bruce Lee and Count Dante, the Kung Fu and Ninja crazes in cinema, Black Belt Magazine and the Iron First comic books began in this era as did the proliferation of martial arts schools both the legitimate ones and strip mall McDojos (and we can thank Count Dante for both of those), and the Monk class itself came about because Dave Arneson liked the song "Kung Fu Fighting"

In Japan and Hong Kong, you also had a martial arts craze in their pop culture, with the Shaw Brothers films in Hong Kong and the rise of chanbara movies and ninja manga in Japan.

And since it's all fiction and fantasy anyway, who cares if it's historically accurate? I personally love a blending of Western and Eastern cultures in my games.