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Author Topic: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really  (Read 13015 times)

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #240 on: October 25, 2020, 07:40:26 PM »
I am morbidly curious as to what an actual SJW adventure module would be like. I don't mean something trivial like tokenism or whatever, but that the events of the adventure and what the PCs are expected to do follows from SJW rhetoric.

HappyDaze

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #241 on: October 25, 2020, 07:53:14 PM »
I am morbidly curious as to what an actual SJW adventure module would be like. I don't mean something trivial like tokenism or whatever, but that the events of the adventure and what the PCs are expected to do follows from SJW rhetoric.
I would think that it would first require that the usual fantasy monsters are non-existent or, at best, very rare, so that they can focus on painting their own people as the greatest of monsters.

Omega

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #242 on: October 25, 2020, 08:29:38 PM »
Theres some on Drive-thru. They tend to be really ham handed.

They seem to love shaming people for liking something.

jhkim

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #243 on: October 26, 2020, 12:54:54 AM »
Here, compare the advertising for TSL to another game which created a safe space for SJWs, Blue Rose. The wording for Blue Rose was inoffensive and not antagonistic, it was written as an invitation to play the game. The wording for TSL reads like a agitator looking for a fight, deliberately provocative and antagonistic.
I agree that the Blue Rose advertising was not antagonistic.

But when it first came out, Blue Rose got a lot of flak from this forum. RPGPundit had numerous rants about (among other things) the "magic deer" and how the game was pushing a collectivist narrative. There were lots of threads of people full of criticism of it. When I created my Blue Rose web pages, I had a FAQ directed at the numerous criticisms of the game from this forum.

On the one hand, I'm glad to hear that positives about Blue Rose and it's marketing. But if it's marketing was positive, then why did it receive the criticism it did?

ShieldWife

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #244 on: October 26, 2020, 09:19:23 AM »
Here, compare the advertising for TSL to another game which created a safe space for SJWs, Blue Rose. The wording for Blue Rose was inoffensive and not antagonistic, it was written as an invitation to play the game. The wording for TSL reads like a agitator looking for a fight, deliberately provocative and antagonistic.
I agree that the Blue Rose advertising was not antagonistic.

But when it first came out, Blue Rose got a lot of flak from this forum. RPGPundit had numerous rants about (among other things) the "magic deer" and how the game was pushing a collectivist narrative. There were lots of threads of people full of criticism of it. When I created my Blue Rose web pages, I had a FAQ directed at the numerous criticisms of the game from this forum.

On the one hand, I'm glad to hear that positives about Blue Rose and it's marketing. But if it's marketing was positive, then why did it receive the criticism it did?

I'm not that familiar with Blue Rose or this forum's reaction to it. Could you give me a very brief summary?

Dimitrios

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #245 on: October 26, 2020, 10:49:08 AM »
I agree that the Blue Rose advertising was not antagonistic.

But when it first came out, Blue Rose got a lot of flak from this forum. RPGPundit had numerous rants about (among other things) the "magic deer" and how the game was pushing a collectivist narrative. There were lots of threads of people full of criticism of it. When I created my Blue Rose web pages, I had a FAQ directed at the numerous criticisms of the game from this forum.

On the one hand, I'm glad to hear that positives about Blue Rose and it's marketing. But if it's marketing was positive, then why did it receive the criticism it did?

But criticism of Blue Rose wasn't specific to this forum. I was still a regular reader of TBP when Blue Rose came out, and there were plenty of critics there as well. The magical deer whatever bothered some folks there. But mainly I think the issue was that Blue Rose is basically the RPG for Mercedes Lackey style fantasy, and that particular subgenre just rubs some people the wrong way.

Things were less "all culture wars all the time" back then, so it seemed to me just people expressing their tastes. Like someone saying that Star Wars flavored SF gaming is more fun than Traveller or vice versa.

Stephen Tannhauser

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #246 on: October 26, 2020, 02:11:25 PM »
I was still a regular reader of TBP when Blue Rose came out, and there were plenty of critics there as well.

I was one of them. My personal objection was not so much the fact that the game's setting took a clear stance on the "correct" sexual morality of its universe -- as has been noted, this is part and parcel of the romantic fantasy genre, and anyone who knows the source material can plead no right to surprise about that -- but the degree to which the game material tended to browbeat you with it. As quoted in Dan Davenport's original review of the game:

"Blue Rose is very, very much about the acceptance of alternative sexual preferences. If this were simply a side-note to the setting as a whole, it really wouldn’t warrant mentioning; however, Blue Rose beats the reader over the head with its message of tolerance to the point of being cloying: a major god has a young male god as his gay lover and is the patron of gay couples, a mother in the game fiction prays that this god watch over her gay son and his lover, fully half of all Sea-Folk are gay, clothing styles are fully androgynous, and so on. Conversely, conservative religious values (represented by the Jarzoni) are objectively closed-minded and bad."

It's worth remembering that the game was originally published in 2005, ten years before Obergefell (we will pause a moment here for anyone who, like me, now abruptly feels depressingly old), so there's a certain earnestness to its advocacy that has suffered for being a little outdated since.

A more game-relevant criticism was that, again in keeping with the original source fantasy genre, the entire style and atmosphere of the game tended to exclude some of the most popular gaming PC tropes: Aldea was not a world where characters like Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, or Drizzt Do'Urden could prosper much, because the stories of romantic fantasy tend to be highly character-centred and focused on personal growth through building relationships and nonviolent conflict resolution, with the action-adventure quotient being a distinctly secondary element at best.  There's clearly been enough of a market for this for the game to stay in print, but gamers not familiar with the source material can be frustrated by the deliberate shift in focus.
Better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt. -- Mark Twain

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TNMalt

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #247 on: October 26, 2020, 03:00:09 PM »
Both tend to discourage wading through rivers of blood. The people I've played with over the years regardless of which way they swung would be considered extreme murderhobos by these settings. I'm not much better, as I don't mind making enemy mechs go stackpole next to hospitals.

Mistwell

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #248 on: October 26, 2020, 10:46:50 PM »
But they are not using that force against anyone to do anything with this product.

Neither are the critics here. But we know that Evil Hat support Cancelling, and the people you're attacking here don't.

BTW do you think it's ok to refer to "Fascists & TERFs" in promotional material for a game? Or is it ok to criticise that? Personally I find it repulsive, so by extension I find the people who talk and think like that repulsive.

LOL I am attacking people for not sharing the same opinion as them? Are they attacking me because they don't share my opinion? Nobody is fucking attacking anyone here, though I guess you could say I am attacking you for your asinine claim that I am attacking someone :)

It's OK to criticize whatever the fuck you want to criticize, mang. Just don't be such a snowflake if someone is critical of your criticism.

Mistwell

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #249 on: October 26, 2020, 10:49:27 PM »
Where are they telling you that you cannot criticize their product? Where are they doing ANY of what you just described concerning this product?

I don't respect anyone whether they be rpg creators or not who talk in SJW buzzwords and/or whose game descriptions come across as some virtue signalling woke manifesto

When a posters says "why are you bothered by this" my response is and will always be "why do you care and we are allowed to criticize an rpg". Followed by "just like your entitled to your opinion on the product so am, mind your own damn business". Sorry I ain't giving anyone an echo chamber simply because they might be offended at myself and others here having a difference of opinion. 

Not to mention you are not some new poster here. You know full well something like this was going to get a reaction, most likely a negative one. Being disingenuous and pretending to be purposefully naive at the reaction this product is getting here. Your not fooling anyone here. We are not very Woke or SJW here and you know it. What other reaction were you expecting besides mockery and derision towards the product.

I am not being disingenuous and you're emphasizing the wrong word in my question. I am not being naive about the reaction, I am ASKING WHY. As in I genuinely want people to articulate the reasons they object to this specific thing, and not their general feelings of this company being icky for being SJW. It's not that I am surprised by people's reactions - I am asking for your reasons.

Mistwell

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #250 on: October 26, 2020, 10:53:32 PM »
Greetings!

Oh, the whining hypocrisy and pearl-clutching! What would people be REEEing about if some company was to produce and market an RPG, entitled:

"Hungry Straight Hippos!"

Marketed with the admonition that "If you are a Communist, an SJW, or LGBTQ, you are not welcome to play this game. Pull your head out of your ass before sharing a game table with others."

There would be *oceans* of tears and gnashing of teeth, with shrill demands that such a company or author be cancelled and exposed as a terrible monster.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

But I feel like you're ignoring the elephant in the room with this example. Let's pretend someone did do exactly that and made that product marketed that way. Would you have a philosophical objection to them doing that? I mean, I would be just as OK with that as I am with this. My view is pretty consistent here. Is yours?

jhkim

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #251 on: October 26, 2020, 10:58:23 PM »
I'm not that familiar with Blue Rose or this forum's reaction to it. Could you give me a very brief summary?
Sure. Blue Rose was an RPG in the genre of "romantic fantasy" - inspired most particularly by the fantasy novels of Mercedes Lackey, along with Diane Duane and Tamora Pierce. It first came out in 2005, and it was the first game to feature the "True20" system - a variant of D20.

It was a technically post-apocalyptic, but it featured a central nation (Aldea) that had a limited monarchy or partial democracy. It didn't have elves or dwarves, but instead had things like talking wolves and horses (Rhydan), sea-people, and other non-standard races. I still have up my old resource pages on the original Blue Rose:

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/bluerose/

I have an essay there about addressing a number of common criticisms of Blue Rose from here ("Does the Golden Harte trample on role-playing?").


My personal objection was not so much the fact that the game's setting took a clear stance on the "correct" sexual morality of its universe -- as has been noted, this is part and parcel of the romantic fantasy genre, and anyone who knows the source material can plead no right to surprise about that -- but the degree to which the game material tended to browbeat you with it. As quoted in Dan Davenport's original review of the game:

"Blue Rose is very, very much about the acceptance of alternative sexual preferences. If this were simply a side-note to the setting as a whole, it really wouldn’t warrant mentioning; however, Blue Rose beats the reader over the head with its message of tolerance to the point of being cloying
There are a handful of references to homosexuality in a 192-page book. I give an exact breakdown of all of them in the essay I link above. If you find the references cloying, that's a matter of taste - but I can't see how those handful of references make playing the game *about* sexual preferences.


A more game-relevant criticism was that, again in keeping with the original source fantasy genre, the entire style and atmosphere of the game tended to exclude some of the most popular gaming PC tropes: Aldea was not a world where characters like Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, or Drizzt Do'Urden could prosper much
So characters who are from a different genre can't prosper? That's like saying that the DC Universe is not a world where characters like Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, or Drizzt could prosper - because they'd be arrested by police and/or stopped by superheroes from their rampages. But I don't think that's a valid criticism of DC Heroes as a game system.

sureshot

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #252 on: October 26, 2020, 11:15:29 PM »
I am not being disingenuous and you're emphasizing the wrong word in my question. I am not being naive about the reaction, I am ASKING WHY. As in I genuinely want people to articulate the reasons they object to this specific thing, and not their general feelings of this company being icky for being SJW. It's not that I am surprised by people's reactions - I am asking for your reasons.

I don't like it because I am not a fan of an rpg company adding what amounts to a SJW Woke Manifesto to sell a product. I don' t care if Evil Hat rpg had been every person self-identifying as a car seat or a cork in a champagne bottle as a character or concept. Them excluding some gamers while trying to be "inclusive" does not impress either.

Hopefully this clears up your confusion. If not continue to pretend to be both clueless and disingenuous as your still not fooling anyone here.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 11:17:17 PM by sureshot »

Mistwell

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #253 on: October 26, 2020, 11:48:46 PM »
I am not being disingenuous and you're emphasizing the wrong word in my question. I am not being naive about the reaction, I am ASKING WHY. As in I genuinely want people to articulate the reasons they object to this specific thing, and not their general feelings of this company being icky for being SJW. It's not that I am surprised by people's reactions - I am asking for your reasons.

I don't like it because I am not a fan of an rpg company adding what amounts to a SJW Woke Manifesto to sell a product. I don' t care if Evil Hat rpg had been every person self-identifying as a car seat or a cork in a champagne bottle as a character or concept. Them excluding some gamers while trying to be "inclusive" does not impress either.

Hopefully this clears up your confusion. If not continue to pretend to be both clueless and disingenuous as your still not fooling anyone here.

Oh for fuck's sake, what exactly is it you think I think I'd gain by "fooling" people by...asking why they believe what they believe?

Stephen Tannhauser

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #254 on: October 27, 2020, 12:01:22 AM »
There are a handful of references to homosexuality in a 192-page book.

Which amounts to far more, and far more thematically important (there are two gods of the setting's religion dedicated to the topic, and it's listed as one of the major philosophical differences driving the two major "good" nations of the setting apart), than any comparable major commercial product of the time.

Nor, I suspect, would the game's creators have described those design choices as some kind of minor or incidental, easily-ignored optional element, because they are certainly not intended so in the source genre.

Quote
So characters who are from a different genre can't prosper? That's like saying that the DC Universe is not a world where characters like Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, or Drizzt could prosper - because they'd be arrested by police and/or stopped by superheroes from their rampages. But I don't think that's a valid criticism of DC Heroes as a game system.

People are far less likely to try to run Conan in DC Heroes, because they don't both share the label "fantasy" and a set of rules largely inspired by D&D.

But even in DC Heroes, there are places within the world and styles within the game that make it possible and viable to run, shall we say, "less traditionally heroic" adventurers and adventures (cf. John Constantine). Blue Rose, from my observation, provides much less support for this kind of thing, not just in terms of rule style but in terms of setting availability -- there is nowhere in Aldea that reminds me of Greyhawk, Sharn or Waterdeep, for example; even the capital of Aldis tends to come off in its promotional material as something more like post-Napoleon III Paris than Imperial Rome or Victorian London. This lack of stylistic flexibility isn't always as apparent as it could stand to be.
Better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt. -- Mark Twain

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