Quote from: jgants;360947And yet, many thousands of us are using it as a RPG just fine.  :rolleyes:


BTW - Am I the only one that noticed the 4e spells for wizards are STILL using the fluff explanation of memorization (see the part about spell book feature - you pick which spell to "memorize" that day)?

The limited powers use thing is obvious - using said power tires you out, or uses up your divine favor, or de-memorizes your spell or whatever so you need to rest before using it again.  Everyone I played with had no problem whatsoever getting that concept immediately nor did they feel it made immersion an issue.

Glad you can. I dislike it so much I can't enjoy the experience, unfortunately.

Quote from: Sigmund;361043You really need to get the fuck over yourself. If a dude wants to make a joke about a part of a game that he doesn't like then who the fuck are you to judge it? Prick. If you wanna live under the delusion that you're better than anyone around here go right the fuck ahead but you're gonna be an unhappy little penis if you think your displeasure is gonna suddenly get us all lock-stepping to your agenda. While it's not my main complaints about 4e, the fact that powers that are described as being nothing more than special combat maneuvers yet still can't be used more than once a day is fucking stupid.

Who am I? I'm the guy who's going to judge you when you act like an idiot. I'm sorry if you were expecting some sort of comfortable warm bath where you don't have to talk to people who disagree with you.

If you actually want to talk about design, I had a post about three posts down where I talk about what's going on with dailies and encounters. If you just want to sit around and sneer at stuff you don't understand, you're useless.

It is odd that a Spell point system, which is the default way 'most' players 'fixed' the D&D spell system with house rules wasn't adopted. A spell point system both boosts lower level casters with more lower level spells but it also limits the very high level caster by limiting the number of very high level spells. Of course it only works if you tweak spells like Fireball to carry a variable of +1 point per dice damage up to a maximum of the casters level (or similar). In this regard you could easily have had a combat fatigue pool that was managed in exactly the same way for combat types to fling out those special moves.

This would have offered balance and some sort of in game explanation and to cap it all its the type of system that is used in most MMOGs

Quote from: Thanlis;360953So here's a real answer that works fine for me.

I have never ever seen an action movie or read a novel in which the hero did the same thing with the same degree of effectiveness every time. Sometimes he puts forth more effort. Sometimes he gets lucky. Sometimes he's more motivated because his sidekick is in distress. A story in which the hero hits the creatures with the same attack the same way every time is dull.

"And then Conan swung his sword, down and to the left. Again."

In, say, AD&D, the fighter gets the "extra oomph" effect by rolling well sometimes and not rolling well sometimes. We remember the big hits, because those are the times when Conan summons up everything he can.

But as players, we don't have any control over when they happen. Sometimes you roll max damage on the kobold in the first fight of the day. This doesn't actually suck or anything; it's just a thing, and you don't remember that particular big roll, because it's not memorable.

Dailies and encounters give you more control over when your fighter digs deep and does something impressive. You can say "hey, this is the Moment," and pull out all the stops. You get to decide when you're going to add that bit of texture to the world.

That's cool. I mean, it really is. It also can cause some suspension of disbelief problems, obviously. I have been a deeply immersive roleplayer for 20 years, and I don't know how 4e would affect my immersion, because I don't get to play in a campaign environment. (I play a lot of LFR. LFR is not an immersive environment for me, so far.) But the idea of getting additional immersion by controlling when my PC puts forth the extra effort... I think I would get something out of that.

Coming back to Paladin's question -- your fighter doesn't know what he's doing. If you want, you can think of it this way: he can try to put forth that extra effort, but he doesn't have it in him. Or the orc isn't giving him that opening, for whatever reason. Your fighter may think he's trying to do the big attack; he doesn't know he's just doing an at-will.

And yeah, that's the part that might be a problem for immersive play. I don't think so? But I dunno for sure. There's a trade off here.

Forgetting for a moment that I said the exact same thing in response to one of your posts already, I can say that it messes with immersion for me. I see no reason why an experienced combatant couldn't full off the same maneuver more than once in a day, or "encounter" of whatever. He's a highly trained duelist who is used to the heat of battle... I would think anyway. It just doesn't make much sense to me. I'm glad it doesn't bother other folks, but for me it's jarring and silly, along with the marking mechanics I've talked before about how it might make more sense in some kinds of wuxia fantasy setting, but I have yet to get anyone to agree to try it, and I'm still not sure that would work for me. For the spell casters it just doesn't seem as jarring though. I too wish they had kept this particular mechanic to just the spellcasters and come up with a different one for the physical types.

Quote from: Sigmund;361051Forgetting for a moment that I said the exact same thing in response to one of your posts already, I can say that it messes with immersion for me. I see no reason why an experienced combatant couldn't full off the same maneuver more than once in a day, or "encounter" of whatever. He's a highly trained duelist who is used to the heat of battle... I would think anyway. It just doesn't make much sense to me. I'm glad it doesn't bother other folks, but for me it's jarring and silly, along with the marking mechanics I've talked before about how it might make more sense in some kinds of wuxia fantasy setting, but I have yet to get anyone to agree to try it, and I'm still not sure that would work for me. For the spell casters it just doesn't seem as jarring though. I too wish they had kept this particular mechanic to just the spellcasters and come up with a different one for the physical types.

Hm. So... do you want your martial characters to be able to put forth extra effort when it comes to the really tough tasks, or do you want them to just have the same steady effect all the way through? (I don't think there's a wrong answer to the question.)

Quote from: Aos;361018So, everyone, what's your favorite prehistoric animal?
I really dig mammoths, but trilobites are kind of neato, too. Also they have this kick ass gorgonopsid thingy on the first episode of Primeval that really fluffs my pillow.
I just can't decide.

Neanderthals

Quote from: GnomeWorks;361033On one hand, this is awesome. Because when one of you people says something completely fucking retarded, I can call you out on your shit. Right?

Wrong. Because the majority of you twits all fucking agree on the same general premises, the few voices that generally disagree with you get stamped out and ignored and mocked. Bullshit communities on the internet - here, tBP, En World, wherever the fuck - become personality cults. Those who tend to frequent a given board either follow the most vocal, offensive fucktards around or generally keep to themselves, because they know that - when it comes down to it - logic holds no sway. Opinions of those other than the most popular have no meaning.

On the other, this view is fucking retarded. Because the internet isn't the holy land of reasonable discussion and argument, it's the haven for the socially retarded who can't actually handle a real argument, or be bothered to possibly promote their position through reason and logic. A casual disparaging comment to the origin of an idea is viewed as sufficient to make the argument go away.

Don't try to make this situation sound any fucking better than any other joint on the tubes. It may not suffer the same kind of bullshit as EN World or tBP, but just because chocolate ice cream has a different flavor from vanilla ice cream doesn't fucking mean they both aren't ice cream.

What a whiny little bitch you are.

Quote from: Thanlis;360872You, too, are an unimaginative idiot.

Seriously. Any time you find yourself critiquing any RPG by making up a dialogue between two people who could not play their way out of a paper bag, you have failed. You are proving yourself incapable of intelligent conversation. Don't be that person.

The example was one of two things: either a player who didn't bother to read the rules, or a player who read the rules but wanted to be a douche to the DM. "Ha ha, look at me, I'm going to point out that I can't use my encounter attack twice in one encounter instead of trying to work with the DM. My critique of the system is more important than working with the rest of the table to enhance immersion. My penis is better than you."

I have so little tolerance for that shit I can't even begin to tell you.

btw, if anyone's interested in actually fucking talking about the question -- which I think is a really interesting one, I just don't buy it as this crippling "ha ha I gotcha!" flaw -- I'm hearing Martial Power 2 talks about it. I don't know if it's any good or not. I mentioned earlier in the thread that the fluff in Primal Power was good; this sort of attempt to conceptualize powers is what I was thinking of. Hopefully MP2 is also good.

The real shame about this is that the poster took it so seriously.  I mean...seriously.  If you bother to look at how the thread was developing you would have seen that it was primarily praise for certain aspects of 4E.  I pulled out a quote for a poster that summed up my feelings pretty well.  The fictional exchange was obviously a satire, an absurd dialogue for the puzzling lack of explanation for why the rules are the way they are.  It doesn't break the game by itself.  That particular lack of detail is just one of the more obvious symptoms of a game that puts the numbers and balance on a higher pedestal than tradition and detail.

Still, it's not a terrible game.  Of course people are going to fill in the gaps of information with their own ideas.  But for me, 4E messed with far too many tropes, shook the little details and idiosyncrasies that I think of when I rally my pals: "Let's play some motherfucking Dungeons and Dragons!"  Perfect balance, powers that tell me what my characters do, 1st level characters having "heroic" power... it simply isn't for us.  And that's okay.  Seriously.

I don't hate 4E, but I do dislike frothing at the mouth over it.  I would play 4E before at least a dozen other systems.  You wouldn't have to strand me on a deserted island with it.  It just so happens that I have the ability to make a choice in the game I run, and 4E is not the one for my group.  We played it, we enjoyed aspects of it, but we ended sessions feeling unsatisfied.

You can go ahead and start froth over these "edition" skirmishes, but the only thing your hateful post really demonstrated was that you are the only one trying to wave a dick in someone's face.  Zip it up and relax.  It doesn't seem like I'm the one having trouble with "tolerance" or "intelligent conversation."  And to call me "unimaginitive" in the same virtual breath (post) that you also suggest Martial Power 2 might "talk about" the issue is ludicrous.  You shouldn't need a sourcebook to explain the backbone of your system.  You have imagination, as I suspect all posters here do.  But be my guest and buy that book.  Please.  Remember that I am thankful for people like you.  Hopefully you can keep WoTC in business long enough to give them another shot at D&D that will fit with me and my group better.

Oh, and I forgot the other question: Giant sloths.

Quote from: Shazbot79;361042Except that inevitably, somebody always DOES engage the douchebag...and then someone engages that person FOR engaging the douchebag and so on.

People wouldn't troll if it wasn't something that actually worked. Sure, on an intellectual level, we know that the only way to win that game is not to play...but people play anyways. It's like feeding quarters into a machine that advertises kicking you in the nuts.

Anyway...I would say that in the case of Seanchai and Jeff90210, that neither come here solely to be pricks...but both come here to be pricks. Mostly people come here to argue...including you. You proved it by arguing against me with the quoted post.

And hell, I'm not saying that's a bad thing...arguing and prickishness are what these sites are for. Hell, the RPGsite is sorted of founded on the Pundit being a massive prick.



Welcome to the internet...online shopping on floors on and two..streaming tv on floor three, porn in the basement and be sure to visit our extensive restaurant review section.

I'm guilty of this for sure. Sue me.

Quote from: Thanlis;361052Hm. So... do you want your martial characters to be able to put forth extra effort when it comes to the really tough tasks, or do you want them to just have the same steady effect all the way through? (I don't think there's a wrong answer to the question.)

The second one.  Evening out damage potential across all attacks, but making them all essentially 'at-wills' would fit the mechanics into what people already know about physical reality.  Perhaps a feat or something to boost damage a few times a day to keep up with the casters, although I have never seen that problem personally.  

Swap out weapon bonuses of less than +3 or +4 to something mundane rather than magical, to keep the magical weapons as something that is really magical.  A 'mundane' mithril steel sword has a non-magical +4, but if you have the heart of a dragon and a piece of a star, you can make any weapon +5.  It would be unlikely someone would waste all that effort on a dagger, so perhaps a proportional level of enchantment is in order.  The same applies to armour.  That way, the Fighter has the magical, near artifact level stuff, and the other classes wouldn't bother because the cost is too high.  Then a Fighter's boosts can be regulated a bit more organically.

And yes, stripping the Fighter of his gear would then drop the power level, but let's face it:  is that any different than a Magic-User without their spellbooks?  A Cleric without their holy symbol?  A Thief without their tools?  Fighters aren't the only ones dependent on gear, and they never have been.

Quote from: Thanlis;361049Who am I? I'm the guy who's going to judge you when you act like an idiot. I'm sorry if you were expecting some sort of comfortable warm bath where you don't have to talk to people who disagree with you.

If you actually want to talk about design, I had a post about three posts down where I talk about what's going on with dailies and encounters. If you just want to sit around and sneer at stuff you don't understand, you're useless.

Judge away pussy. Just know you're getting judged back. Congratulations on being just about as useful as me. How does it feel to be a hypocrite?

Quote from: winkingbishop;361056And to call me "unimaginitive" in the same virtual breath (post) that you also suggest Martial Power 2 might "talk about" the issue is ludicrous.  You shouldn't need a sourcebook to explain the backbone of your system.  

I don't. Apparently some people do.

Quote from: Thanlis;361052Hm. So... do you want your martial characters to be able to put forth extra effort when it comes to the really tough tasks, or do you want them to just have the same steady effect all the way through? (I don't think there's a wrong answer to the question.)

I don't mind extra effort being available to martial characters, but the approach 4e uses is not to my taste. Perhaps using a point system, such as spell points for magic and fatigue points for martial types would be more palatable for me. I was disappointed enough with 4e that I left my gaming group who decided to stay with the system and have been looking for a fantasy game I enjoy more. Digging on Iron Gauntlets now, but also checking out BRP. I would definitely play older versions of DnD too so not having cool maneuvers is something I'm ok with too.

Quote from: estar;361038

Quote from: WindjammerNothing in 4E's (alleged) innovations can ever outweigh the loss of removing utility magic from the game. And no, this isn't helped by copy-pasting names of (previous editions') utility spells on rituals.

This is not bourne out in actual play. If anything the utility effects (tenser's floating disk, etc) get cast MORE.

Sure, for every 4 utility spells of the game they removed, the 1 spell that didn't get cut gets cast more often these days than it did previously. If 5E continues the trend, there'll only be 10 utility spells left, and then Tenser's disk will get cast seriously regularly.

I mean, they'd probably call it Tenser's disk but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a +1 shuriken you can fire at-will.