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Author Topic: This thread is CLOSED cause nobody won’t talk to me more nicer (D&D thieves)  (Read 5332 times)

Eric Diaz

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Sure, I agree. Use "specialist" or "expert". Bilbo is not a thief until he needs to be one.

Also, the thief, mechanically, is a high-offense, low defense class, opposite to the cleric.



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Rob Necronomicon

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But all this is relative... I mean, the conquistadors thought they were doing great things by stealing and looting and bringing their fine religion to the savages.

Were they ethical to do so? Well, they themselves would have said 'absolutely.'
Honestly, everyone involved was some variation on asshole and I find myself rooting for the diseases or animals to kill off as many of them as possible.

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Opaopajr

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It's been ages, but if I remember correctly the Complete Handbook: Thief, and Masque of the Red Death had variations on an explorer's guild. But it's been ages. That and Newhon's Lankhmar had a whole D&D line for a bit there.
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Lynn

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I think it falls into a similar pit of occupation or social function vs skill set.

Many D&D products over the years have pointed out, for example, that temples are made up of people that fulfill a religious role, and that not everyone necessarily is a cleric. Someone that is a fighter could be a 'deacon' or a thief could be an altar boy. They'd likely be genuine believers as the actual clerics would have some way of verifying it via ceremony.
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Aglondir

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My perspective is that the D&D thief is not actually a thief—a criminal who steals things—even though the rules push that interpretation of the class. Lamentations of the Flame Princess gets it more right by changing the class title to “specialist”. This character has skills that are useful for exploring D&D-style dungeons. The whole, “build a hideout, and then a thieves’ guild” element of the rules for higher-level thieves seems tacked on to me. The idea that “thieves might steal from party members” is stupid, if the player does not envisage his character prone to that type of behavior.

The D&D thief made his money by exploring ancient ruins and twisting labyrinths, not by breaking into houses and banks, or extorting money from the small businesses in his neighborhood. What would the D&D thief know about running a successful criminal enterprise—anymore than a fighter, cleric, or magic-user? A magic-user would have an advantage if he wanted to engage in extortion rackets. “Pay the protection money or meet my little friend!” *casts magic missile—the proper one, that hovers threateningly over the magic-user’s shoulder for ten minutes* The cleric would be in a perfect position for conducting blackmail. “Lord Sherman just made his weekly confession; now I will write an anonymous letter, threatening to expose him if he does not send money.”

D&D thieves can pick locks and find traps, for sure, which would be useful for breaking into places. But he can make more money by using those skills in a dungeon—in the D&D world(s).

I posit that, instead of a thieves’ guild, the D&D thief should have access to an organization similar to the old explorers societies. A dungeoneers’ guild, where dungeon survival techniques are taught and practiced. Members can study maps of explored dungeons, sit in plush chairs by the fireplace to read the guild books about the exploits of past members, learn how to read ancient languages and eventually how to cast spells from scrolls (without, apparently, needing to cast “read magic” first). When the D&D thief acquires enough money, he can start his own dungeoneers’ club, where members pay dues and training fees.

It's a great character concept. One of my favorite characters was a medeival Indiana Jones type. It was a city game, where the dungeons were under the streets. Something like Waterdeep. His goal was to get maps of the dungeons before the party entered, to plan the raid. The campaign didn't last, but if it did, he would have established a guild something like what you described.

But I don't see the need to change the game or the name. I don't find "thief" that bad in a game with "monks" and "druids."

Mishihari

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I don't really have a problem with the thief as a thief. None of the other classes are dungeon-specific, after all. They're fighters, not tunnel warriors. Magic-users, not underdark mages. They're all roles that exist in the world outside graph paper maps. They just happen to possess skill sets that make them useful to the average adventuring party.

The closest archetype is probably the tomb robber.

That’s it.

I’m closing the thread.

lolwut?  This guy again?!

Pat
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^ I'm pretty sure it's a joke. Anyway....

The skill set of an Indiana Jones-style character doesn't really overlap much with the thief. Find traps, maybe, though Jones was more competent in discovering the nature of traps beforehand, or agilely avoiding their consequences, than not setting them off. He occasionally snuck around, but so did others; it doesn't appear to be a skill he's particularly adept at. No picking of pockets, and I don't recall any picking of locks. Hearing noise? Another not-skill. Climbing? Maybe, though that's more subsumed into general athleticism. Read languages, definitely, but the skill should be much broader. Read scrolls no (though that's out of genre, and was stolen from the Gray Mouser). No backstabbery.

So a dungeon-version might know traps, and locks wouldn't be unreasonable. But the rest of the thief skills are a poor fit, except for read languages which almost demands a great expansion. But how does archaeology and lost lore work in the dungeon? There's already a magic-user for things arcane, and dungeons aren't really lost tombs, cities, or artifacts being uncovered. It would be weird to roll to see if Orckiller Jones was able to uncover the plans for every trap in the dungeon. So I'm not sure it really fits, as an archetype.

Ghostmaker

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I don't really have a problem with the thief as a thief. None of the other classes are dungeon-specific, after all. They're fighters, not tunnel warriors. Magic-users, not underdark mages. They're all roles that exist in the world outside graph paper maps. They just happen to possess skill sets that make them useful to the average adventuring party.

The closest archetype is probably the tomb robber.

That’s it.

I’m closing the thread.

lolwut?  This guy again?!
He's kidding. Relax.

GeekyBugle

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But all this is relative... I mean, the conquistadors thought they were doing great things by stealing and looting and bringing their fine religion to the savages.

Were they ethical to do so? Well, they themselves would have said 'absolutely.'

At least Cortez was seen by all the other people subjugated by the Aztecs as a liberator, how else could he win against the Aztecs and their serfs? A few hundred against hundreds of thousands, forget your superior weapons you're fucked unless you had 20-21st century weapons.
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Persimmon

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It's been ages, but if I remember correctly the Complete Handbook: Thief, and Masque of the Red Death had variations on an explorer's guild. But it's been ages. That and Newhon's Lankhmar had a whole D&D line for a bit there.

For what it's worth, DCC currently has the Lankhmar license and they've produced a bunch of stuff for it.  Personally, I can't stand Leiber's writing style and could not care less about Lankhmar, but for those interested in such things, the resources are there.

HappyDaze

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My perspective is that the D&D thief is not actually a thief—a criminal who steals things—even though the rules push that interpretation of the class. Lamentations of the Flame Princess gets it more right by changing the class title to “specialist”. This character has skills that are useful for exploring D&D-style dungeons. The whole, “build a hideout, and then a thieves’ guild” element of the rules for higher-level thieves seems tacked on to me. The idea that “thieves might steal from party members” is stupid, if the player does not envisage his character prone to that type of behavior.

The D&D thief made his money by exploring ancient ruins and twisting labyrinths, not by breaking into houses and banks, or extorting money from the small businesses in his neighborhood. What would the D&D thief know about running a successful criminal enterprise—anymore than a fighter, cleric, or magic-user? A magic-user would have an advantage if he wanted to engage in extortion rackets. “Pay the protection money or meet my little friend!” *casts magic missile—the proper one, that hovers threateningly over the magic-user’s shoulder for ten minutes* The cleric would be in a perfect position for conducting blackmail. “Lord Sherman just made his weekly confession; now I will write an anonymous letter, threatening to expose him if he does not send money.”

D&D thieves can pick locks and find traps, for sure, which would be useful for breaking into places. But he can make more money by using those skills in a dungeon—in the D&D world(s).

I posit that, instead of a thieves’ guild, the D&D thief should have access to an organization similar to the old explorers societies. A dungeoneers’ guild, where dungeon survival techniques are taught and practiced. Members can study maps of explored dungeons, sit in plush chairs by the fireplace to read the guild books about the exploits of past members, learn how to read ancient languages and eventually how to cast spells from scrolls (without, apparently, needing to cast “read magic” first). When the D&D thief acquires enough money, he can start his own dungeoneers’ club, where members pay dues and training fees.

It's a great character concept. One of my favorite characters was a medeival Indiana Jones type. It was a city game, where the dungeons were under the streets. Something like Waterdeep. His goal was to get maps of the dungeons before the party entered, to plan the raid. The campaign didn't last, but if it did, he would have established a guild something like what you described.

But I don't see the need to change the game or the name. I don't find "thief" that bad in a game with "monks" and "druids."
I think the one that seemed off to me a few years back was SotDL using "Dervish" for someone that specializes in two-weapon fighting.

Omega

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I don't really have a problem with the thief as a thief. None of the other classes are dungeon-specific, after all. They're fighters, not tunnel warriors. Magic-users, not underdark mages. They're all roles that exist in the world outside graph paper maps. They just happen to possess skill sets that make them useful to the average adventuring party.

The closest archetype is probably the tomb robber.

That’s it.

I’m closing the thread.

lolwut?  This guy again?!
He's kidding. Relax.

Its a very unfunny joke then.

Pat
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My perspective is that the D&D thief is not actually a thief—a criminal who steals things—even though the rules push that interpretation of the class. Lamentations of the Flame Princess gets it more right by changing the class title to “specialist”. This character has skills that are useful for exploring D&D-style dungeons. The whole, “build a hideout, and then a thieves’ guild” element of the rules for higher-level thieves seems tacked on to me. The idea that “thieves might steal from party members” is stupid, if the player does not envisage his character prone to that type of behavior.

The D&D thief made his money by exploring ancient ruins and twisting labyrinths, not by breaking into houses and banks, or extorting money from the small businesses in his neighborhood. What would the D&D thief know about running a successful criminal enterprise—anymore than a fighter, cleric, or magic-user? A magic-user would have an advantage if he wanted to engage in extortion rackets. “Pay the protection money or meet my little friend!” *casts magic missile—the proper one, that hovers threateningly over the magic-user’s shoulder for ten minutes* The cleric would be in a perfect position for conducting blackmail. “Lord Sherman just made his weekly confession; now I will write an anonymous letter, threatening to expose him if he does not send money.”

D&D thieves can pick locks and find traps, for sure, which would be useful for breaking into places. But he can make more money by using those skills in a dungeon—in the D&D world(s).

I posit that, instead of a thieves’ guild, the D&D thief should have access to an organization similar to the old explorers societies. A dungeoneers’ guild, where dungeon survival techniques are taught and practiced. Members can study maps of explored dungeons, sit in plush chairs by the fireplace to read the guild books about the exploits of past members, learn how to read ancient languages and eventually how to cast spells from scrolls (without, apparently, needing to cast “read magic” first). When the D&D thief acquires enough money, he can start his own dungeoneers’ club, where members pay dues and training fees.

It's a great character concept. One of my favorite characters was a medeival Indiana Jones type. It was a city game, where the dungeons were under the streets. Something like Waterdeep. His goal was to get maps of the dungeons before the party entered, to plan the raid. The campaign didn't last, but if it did, he would have established a guild something like what you described.

But I don't see the need to change the game or the name. I don't find "thief" that bad in a game with "monks" and "druids."
I think the one that seemed off to me a few years back was SotDL using "Dervish" for someone that specializes in two-weapon fighting.
It's from the phrase "whirling dervish". Which is ultimately derived from a religious dance, but the game use is more about the superficial associations (spinning, lots of energy) than real dervishes or their practices.

Rob Necronomicon

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I do like playing vigilantes in fantasy. Ethical because you're stealing someone's life in order to make the world a better place. Yaay!
Attack-minded and dangerously so - W.E. Fairbairn.
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Jam The MF

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Re: Thieves are not thieves in D&D
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2022, 09:09:04 PM »
A better word might be 'technician', but that would generally indicate someone from a more modern time.

How about, "Specialist"?
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