TheRPGSite

I'm not going to link to the thread at TBP nor will I quote it. It's the one where Phil Masters (of Steve Jackson Games) got a ban for explaining what the disadvantage "slave mentality" means in Gurps.

In that thread, he basically says there will not be a 5th edition for Gurps, unless the RPG market drastically changes, and the popularity for Gurps increases. It's not really a surprise, but hearing it from Phil makes it real.

What I find hard to believe is why they won't Kickstart it. The diehard fans alone would fund it, assuming it did not have an astronomical funding goal. Throw in a bunch of 4th Edition PDFs as stretch goals and it would skyrocket. The Dungeon Fantasy KS made $176,450 over a $100,000 goal, which isn't a spectacular success but it's a success nonetheless.

As a start, they could simply make a new Gurps Lite, which is something we've wanted since the beginning. Something that could appeal to D&D players who are looking for more realism or grittiness. There's definitely a market there, as evidenced by OSR games that try to do exactly that.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 23, 2021, 02:12:27 AM
I'm not going to link to the thread at TBP nor will I quote it. It's the one where Phil Masters (of Steve Jackson Games) got a ban for explaining what the disadvantage "slave mentality" means in Gurps.

In that thread, he basically says there will not be a 5th edition for Gurps, unless the RPG market drastically changes, and the popularity for Gurps increases. It's not really a surprise, but hearing it from Phil makes it real.

What I find hard to believe is why they won't Kickstart it. The diehard fans alone would fund it, assuming it did not have an astronomical funding goal. Throw in a bunch of 4th Edition PDFs as stretch goals and it would skyrocket. The Dungeon Fantasy KS made $176,450 over a $100,000 goal, which isn't a spectacular success but it's a success nonetheless.

As a start, they could simply make a new Gurps Lite, which is something we've wanted since the beginning. Something that could appeal to D&D players who are looking for more realism or grittiness. There's definitely a market there, as evidenced by OSR games that try to do exactly that.

Imho, what they need is to take the engine and publish focused games, start with whatever they think it does best, and make a full game, in a single book, They already have lots of source books, but they won't get new players if they have to learn a brick with all it's fiddly bits and own also several other bricks and understand how to put them together to play X.

It's the same issue Hero System has, they stoped making full games and instead publish two massive bricks plus source books. I'm not buying all that shit, and then I would need to understand it enough to put it together.

Why would they need a 5th edition? To simplify things? I doubt it. Full games IMHO.

I like Phil a lot—and SJ has a brilliant mind for mechanics and building games. I backed TFT, picking up the legendary edition (or whatever it was called) and gifted a second one to my brother. It took around a year to get it, and after, they immediately launched another KS for add on items to further support the system.

I found the way they were bringing it to market annoying, and I don't want to fill out my SJGs Christmas list each year. I get it..if you can do math and understand the business at all, you can almost guarantee to not lose money with KS. However, they have resources and are an established company. They could have been producing that shit and putting it in their stores.

That said, I hope there is a GURPS 5e. We need talented people to continue to make games. I would also support the idea of full games over a 5e.

No GURPS 5e has pretty much been the official line for over a decade.  And, you know?  I'm good with that, 4e isn't perfect but 5e won't be either.  I'm sick of the supplement mill.  No new edition is great news.  What chafes me is that support has been dialed back to micro supplements.  Worse still, no world books, has been policy for a long time now.  Oh well little mechanical tidbits can be nice.  There's a lovely space ship crew pdf that's really handy.  Dribs and drabs of vehicles scattered across a thousand pdfs.  Sure you have to sort through the tables of contents for dozens of issues of Pyramid to find some of them.  But I guess focused supplements don't sell as well. They've got the numbers, they know you know?

Well, as long as Munchkin is their primary Cashcow. I also got the feeling that gurps is the unloved stepchild of SJG.

I looked at their latest stakeholder's report, and they talk about the huge growth in D&D, but don't talk about any growth of GURPS. Which should be no surprise, because they've chosen to cater to a niche and shrinking corner of the market.

Also noticed that SJG made less money last year than than year before. And when I looked back through their stakeholder's reports, and that's been true every year since 2013. Over that period, they've declined from $8.8 to $4 million. Though to be fair, that was the peak of a huge spike in revenue -- 2009 was just $3 million. They're well past peak Munchkin, but it's still inflating their revenues.

http://www.sjgames.com/general/stakeholders/

Quote from: Pat on April 23, 2021, 10:56:23 AM
I looked at their latest stakeholder's report, and they talk about the huge growth in D&D, but don't talk about any growth of GURPS. Which should be no surprise, because they've chosen to cater to a niche and shrinking corner of the market.

Also noticed that SJG made less money last year than than year before. And when I looked back through their stakeholder's reports, and that's been true every year since 2013. Over that period, they've declined from $8.8 to $4 million. Though to be fair, that was the peak of a huge spike in revenue -- 2009 was just $3 million. They're well past peak Munchkin, but it's still inflating their revenues.

http://www.sjgames.com/general/stakeholders/

Then maybe the time is nigh for SJG to eather Buckle up and do something, or vanish over the next Years.

Quote from: CookieMonster on April 23, 2021, 11:03:40 AM
Then maybe the time is nigh for SJG to eather Buckle up and do something, or vanish over the next Years.

Looks like they were in the $2.5–3 million category for much of the aughts, and with the growth of board games since, as well as a few successful Kickstarters under their belt, I wouldn't be surprised if they could maintain that level or higher without Munchkin.

Quote from: Pat on April 23, 2021, 11:17:45 AM

Quote from: CookieMonster on April 23, 2021, 11:03:40 AM
Then maybe the time is nigh for SJG to eather Buckle up and do something, or vanish over the next Years.

Looks like they were in the $2.5–3 million category for much of the aughts, and with the growth of board games since, as well as a few successful Kickstarters under their belt, I wouldn't be surprised if they could maintain that level or higher without Munchkin.

Yeah you are propably right, we will see what the Future brings for them.

Quote from: Pat on April 23, 2021, 10:56:23 AM
I looked at their latest stakeholder's report, and they talk about the huge growth in D&D, but don't talk about any growth of GURPS. Which should be no surprise, because they've chosen to cater to a niche and shrinking corner of the market.

   OTOH, is anyone seeing any spillover growth from D&D's huge success? Conventional wisdom was that a growing D&D feeds into the rest of the industry as well, but with the new emphasis on 'lifestyle branding', I'm not so sure that's true any more.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 23, 2021, 11:37:57 AM

   OTOH, is anyone seeing any spillover growth from D&D's huge success? Conventional wisdom was that a growing D&D feeds into the rest of the industry as well, but with the new emphasis on 'lifestyle branding', I'm not so sure that's true any more.

I think there is pent up demand for spillover into another game due to modest dissatisfaction with 5E.  Does a game or small set of games answer that dissatisfaction well enough to get people to act?  No real clue, but I doubt it.  Perhaps the right game could carve out space.  I could see a GURPS Lite/Focused Complete Game combo being that game, but a lot of other things would need to go right for it to happen.  The "non-current edition D&D" space is more diffuse than ever before.  So even if movement was starting from 5E, I don't know that it would register enough to notice.

There are also people that grow dissatisfied with current edition D&D and drop out of gaming altogether.  Always has been.  I suspect that's where most of the potential spillover goes right now.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 23, 2021, 11:37:57 AM

Quote from: Pat on April 23, 2021, 10:56:23 AM
I looked at their latest stakeholder's report, and they talk about the huge growth in D&D, but don't talk about any growth of GURPS. Which should be no surprise, because they've chosen to cater to a niche and shrinking corner of the market.

   OTOH, is anyone seeing any spillover growth from D&D's huge success? Conventional wisdom was that a growing D&D feeds into the rest of the industry as well, but with the new emphasis on 'lifestyle branding', I'm not so sure that's true any more.

idk about the branding but aren't as many companies able to publish and present themselves as D&D alternatives in the same space. Spillover starts casual so won't know to look on itch.io or drivethru or whereverthefuck to get started. Real accessibility issue at present.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 23, 2021, 11:37:57 AM
OTOH, is anyone seeing any spillover growth from D&D's huge success? Conventional wisdom was that a growing D&D feeds into the rest of the industry as well, but with the new emphasis on 'lifestyle branding', I'm not so sure that's true any more.

Nah its the networking effect.  I tried to start up a game of Fate Dresden Files but because it wasn't D&D Fantasy Medieval gaming almost the whole group dropped out.  If no one wants to play Earthdawn, Shadowrun, Rifts, Soulbound, Star Wars (FFG or d6), or even 2e then those games aren't going to have any market share.

It's the DMG problem.  No one buys them.  Because there's 1 DM to like 1-10+ players.  Funny enough Adventurer's League made that ratio worse.

Also lol at GURPS being slimmed down.  Maybe I'm missing something because last I played was 3e (is that the one with the black cover around the turn of the century?) but when we played Fantasy Medieval it felt more streamlined than D&D 2e.  Complexity is just because of the modularity.

Quote from: KingCheops on April 23, 2021, 12:35:30 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 23, 2021, 11:37:57 AM
OTOH, is anyone seeing any spillover growth from D&D's huge success? Conventional wisdom was that a growing D&D feeds into the rest of the industry as well, but with the new emphasis on 'lifestyle branding', I'm not so sure that's true any more.

Nah its the networking effect.  I tried to start up a game of Fate Dresden Files but because it wasn't D&D Fantasy Medieval gaming almost the whole group dropped out.  If no one wants to play Earthdawn, Shadowrun, Rifts, Soulbound, Star Wars (FFG or d6), or even 2e then those games aren't going to have any market share.

It's the DMG problem.  No one buys them.  Because there's 1 DM to like 1-10+ players.  Funny enough Adventurer's League made that ratio worse.

Also lol at GURPS being slimmed down.  Maybe I'm missing something because last I played was 3e (is that the one with the black cover around the turn of the century?) but when we played Fantasy Medieval it felt more streamlined than D&D 2e.  Complexity is just because of the modularity.

Yep that was the third edition you played.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 23, 2021, 11:37:57 AM

Quote from: Pat on April 23, 2021, 10:56:23 AM
I looked at their latest stakeholder's report, and they talk about the huge growth in D&D, but don't talk about any growth of GURPS. Which should be no surprise, because they've chosen to cater to a niche and shrinking corner of the market.

   OTOH, is anyone seeing any spillover growth from D&D's huge success? Conventional wisdom was that a growing D&D feeds into the rest of the industry as well, but with the new emphasis on 'lifestyle branding', I'm not so sure that's true any more.

All I have seen from the success of current D&D only benefits current D&D. There is no spillover to others in the industry.

Is there any likelihood of a CRPG based on GURPS? IIRC, the Fallout CRPG was originally going to use GURPS before the companies split.

I'd disagree. The various VTT software solutions have benefited greatly from 5e and they almost all support lesser known rpgs.  That may be the best way to grow small title rpgs as it gives you an easy way to find/introduce new players.

I'd rather they reprint 3rd edition than make a new one.  I hated 4e Gurps in just about every way.  Way, way more complicated than I wanted and the artwork was an abortion. 

As usual like Hero Games when it comes to Gurps SJGames takes every opportunity to miss an opportunity imo.

Gurps would need a new company other than SJGames to really take off. With 4E some were and are still asking for Gurps Vehicles and they instead offer 4E Discworld and Mars Attacks. Then wonder why many fans were not buying. I can kind of understand why they did the first the second was more of a head shaking "why the hell is SJGames even wasting time and resources on the second.

Yes I know Vehicles is still being "worked on" yet it has been for more than decade. So unless it hits stores or the PDF is released for me it is the rpg version of vapourware.

Another thing that hurts Gurps is the fanabase. Many lament and moan how they can't find any GMs and players to run/play with yet also want nothing to change. Good luck with finding those players and GMs. Especially when hiding behind the sunken cost fallacy.

They did luck out with Munchkin as it is probably the only thing keeping SJGames alive at this point. If they never had that product they would be in the same sad state as Hero Games.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 23, 2021, 10:10:31 AMWorse still, no world books, has been policy for a long time now. 

World books were always the most popular part of GURPS 3e. Whether they made money or not I don't venture to guess - but everyone knew about and loved them. They were the main entry for most into GURPS. I saw this when I was a MiB for SJGames and went around running intro sessions for them at game stores. After those sessions, someone would always buy a world book - not many bought a rule book.

Once the old runs of 3e world books were all sold, I couldn't get much interest for 4e intro game sessions.

They chose to give up on the world books and go for the gearhead stuff instead. Much like Traveller 5e. That's what comes of listening to your online forum fan base instead of actual gamers.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on April 23, 2021, 11:27:22 PM


They chose to give up on the world books and go for the gearhead stuff instead. Much like Traveller 5e. That's what comes of listening to your online forum fan base instead of actual gamers.

I disagree. There was a lot of push for an introductory version of Traveller when rumblings of T5 began. 13Mann was working on Liftoff, a starter version of Traveller before the project got cancelled for reasons unknown.

Traveller5 is gearhead-ish, but it also is made for people who have been playing Traveller for decades. Traveller5 is definitely not made for a gamer looking for a new game to by introduced to and try out.

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 23, 2021, 11:38:15 PM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on April 23, 2021, 11:27:22 PM


They chose to give up on the world books and go for the gearhead stuff instead. Much like Traveller 5e. That's what comes of listening to your online forum fan base instead of actual gamers.

I disagree. There was a lot of push for an introductory version of Traveller when rumblings of T5 began. 13Mann was working on Liftoff, a starter version of Traveller before the project got cancelled for reasons unknown.

Traveller5 is gearhead-ish, but it also is made for people who have been playing Traveller for decades. Traveller5 is definitely not made for a gamer looking for a new game to by introduced to and try out.

With Cepheus Engine you already have several smaller system games, Light, Faster than Light and Atom, plus full games being developed with the chasis of Cepheus but for other genres.

GURPS and HERO need to do the same, a simplified entry version of the system and Full games on their genres, What happened to Fantasy, Star, Pulp, Cyber, etc HERO? Did they really not sell?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 23, 2021, 11:58:37 PM

With Cepheus Engine you already have several smaller system games, Light, Faster than Light and Atom, plus full games being developed with the chasis of Cepheus but for other genres.

You aren't wrong, but the distinction should be made that Cepheus Engine is the OGL version of Traveller, and not Officially Traveller. Cepheus Engine is what Mongoose Traveller 1e could have evolved in to if given the chance.

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 23, 2021, 11:38:15 PM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on April 23, 2021, 11:27:22 PM


They chose to give up on the world books and go for the gearhead stuff instead. Much like Traveller 5e. That's what comes of listening to your online forum fan base instead of actual gamers.

I disagree. There was a lot of push for an introductory version of Traveller when rumblings of T5 began. 13Mann was working on Liftoff, a starter version of Traveller before the project got cancelled for reasons unknown.

Traveller5 is gearhead-ish, but it also is made for people who have been playing Traveller for decades. Traveller5 is definitely not made for a gamer looking for a new game to by introduced to and try out.

Haven't looked at T5 in a couple ages or so, did they ever fix the errata from the first printing. Drove me off more than the rules

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 23, 2021, 09:10:53 PM
Is there any likelihood of a CRPG based on GURPS? IIRC, the Fallout CRPG was originally going to use GURPS before the companies split.

I met a guy that was involved in turning GURPS into an RPG for Interplay. It was off the record so I will not make any names.

Basically, he told me that the whole agreement fell apart because "It was just impossible to work with SJ." He had no knowledge about the process of creating a videogame but wanted to have a say in everything. He asked for changes in parts of the code that were "locked", not understanding that you can't change a code the way you can fire up a word processor and rewrite a rule or a description in a PnP RPG.

At the end the decision become simple: SJ was contractually able to be PitA but Interplay was also able to pull off the contract when they wanted. They went for the second option and built up, instead, a proprietary ruleset.

"You know what SJ hated the most?" this guy told me. "The Pip Boy. Go figure."

Given the success of the franchise, I always wondered how much money SJ lost by being an ass.

Quote from: Reckall on April 24, 2021, 07:04:33 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 23, 2021, 09:10:53 PM
Is there any likelihood of a CRPG based on GURPS? IIRC, the Fallout CRPG was originally going to use GURPS before the companies split.

I met a guy that was involved in turning GURPS into an RPG for Interplay. It was off the record so I will not make any names.

Basically, he told me that the whole agreement fell apart because "It was just impossible to work with SJ." He had no knowledge about the process of creating a videogame but wanted to have a say in everything. He asked for changes in parts of the code that were "locked", not understanding that you can't change a code the way you can fire up a word processor and rewrite a rule or a description in a PnP RPG.

At the end the decision become simple: SJ was contractually able to be PitA but Interplay was also able to pull off the contract when they wanted. They went for the second option and built up, instead, a proprietary ruleset.

"You know what SJ hated the most?" this guy told me. "The Pip Boy. Go figure."

Given the success of the franchise, I always wondered how much money SJ lost by being an ass.

Fallout was actually pretty obscure until the IP was bought by Bethesda. SJ probably wouldn't have made much from royalties, relatively speaking. Bethesda would've most likely opted out of the contract rather than continue paying royalties, even if SJ didn't annoy them.

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 24, 2021, 02:57:48 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 23, 2021, 11:58:37 PM

With Cepheus Engine you already have several smaller system games, Light, Faster than Light and Atom, plus full games being developed with the chasis of Cepheus but for other genres.

You aren't wrong, but the distinction should be made that Cepheus Engine is the OGL version of Traveller, and not Officially Traveller. Cepheus Engine is what Mongoose Traveller 1e could have evolved in to if given the chance.

Mongoose put their Traveller 1e under OGL. Cepheus is an IP-less restatement of that OGL.

So, Cepheus is an evolution of Mongoose 1e. Just not where Mongoose took the brand. And that bothers me not one whit, because we have Cepheus.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 24, 2021, 08:34:19 AM
Fallout was actually pretty obscure until the IP was bought by Bethesda. SJ probably wouldn't have made much from royalties, relatively speaking.

Not true. Fallout was a big success in 1997 terms. According to Brian Fargo, it ultimately sold about 600,000 copies.

https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=10604

Fallout 2 was a success too, even if I haven't hard numbers. I was working as a freelance videogame journalist at the time, and between Baldur's Gate and Fallout everybody hoped that traditional computer RPGs were back after the slump in the mid '90s. True, Bethesda turned the franchise into a mega-hit, but in 2008, i.e. in very different times (I was there, too, BTW, when they unveiled F3  ;) )

Quote from: This Guy on April 24, 2021, 03:01:32 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 23, 2021, 11:38:15 PM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on April 23, 2021, 11:27:22 PM


They chose to give up on the world books and go for the gearhead stuff instead. Much like Traveller 5e. That's what comes of listening to your online forum fan base instead of actual gamers.

I disagree. There was a lot of push for an introductory version of Traveller when rumblings of T5 began. 13Mann was working on Liftoff, a starter version of Traveller before the project got cancelled for reasons unknown.

Traveller5 is gearhead-ish, but it also is made for people who have been playing Traveller for decades. Traveller5 is definitely not made for a gamer looking for a new game to by introduced to and try out.

Haven't looked at T5 in a couple ages or so, did they ever fix the errata from the first printing. Drove me off more than the rules

If i remember correctly with release of T 5.1 they splittet the book in three smaller ones and put the errata in it.

GURPS Vehicles is to GURPS as Squats used to be to Warhammer 40000.  It's not happening.  My understanding is that it's completely written but the editing and crosschecking is too much work for the one guy who's qualified to do it.  But also, GURPS Vehicles is seen as having had a negative impact on GURPS' reputation.

Traveller 5.1 is indeed three books.  They added a couple hundred pages, most of it explanations and clarifications.  The awful and non-functional 5.09 combat system has been removed.  But there are still plenty of problems and a moose is still the ultimate antitank weapon in the game.  As it's a known issue an the table had other errors corrected one can only assume Marc believes this to be an accurate and correct ruling.  Rogues are still broken as they only have to roll for stuff on one attribute of their choice and there's no penalty for the cash value of the scheme.  If you thought nobles with status over 20 were broken in 5.0 you ain't seen nuthin' yet.  A rogue with a 12 in one attribute can pretty much buy the galaxy at no personal risk.

Quote from: CookieMonster on April 24, 2021, 11:26:22 AM

Quote from: This Guy on April 24, 2021, 03:01:32 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 23, 2021, 11:38:15 PM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on April 23, 2021, 11:27:22 PM


They chose to give up on the world books and go for the gearhead stuff instead. Much like Traveller 5e. That's what comes of listening to your online forum fan base instead of actual gamers.

I disagree. There was a lot of push for an introductory version of Traveller when rumblings of T5 began. 13Mann was working on Liftoff, a starter version of Traveller before the project got cancelled for reasons unknown.

Traveller5 is gearhead-ish, but it also is made for people who have been playing Traveller for decades. Traveller5 is definitely not made for a gamer looking for a new game to by introduced to and try out.

Haven't looked at T5 in a couple ages or so, did they ever fix the errata from the first printing. Drove me off more than the rules

If i remember correctly with release of T 5.1 they splittet the book in three smaller ones and put the errata in it.

Awesome, that's going back on the to buy list then, thanks

Quote from: CookieMonster on April 24, 2021, 11:26:22 AM

Quote from: This Guy on April 24, 2021, 03:01:32 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 23, 2021, 11:38:15 PM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on April 23, 2021, 11:27:22 PM


They chose to give up on the world books and go for the gearhead stuff instead. Much like Traveller 5e. That's what comes of listening to your online forum fan base instead of actual gamers.

I disagree. There was a lot of push for an introductory version of Traveller when rumblings of T5 began. 13Mann was working on Liftoff, a starter version of Traveller before the project got cancelled for reasons unknown.

Traveller5 is gearhead-ish, but it also is made for people who have been playing Traveller for decades. Traveller5 is definitely not made for a gamer looking for a new game to by introduced to and try out.

Haven't looked at T5 in a couple ages or so, did they ever fix the errata from the first printing. Drove me off more than the rules

If i remember correctly with release of T 5.1 they splittet the book in three smaller ones and put the errata in it.

Yes. It is still a pretty hefty set of rules, though. Great for mining ideas, but I wouldn't want to get some to play it.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 23, 2021, 02:12:27 AM
I'm not going to link to the thread at TBP nor will I quote it. It's the one where Phil Masters (of Steve Jackson Games) got a ban for explaining what the disadvantage "slave mentality" means in Gurps.

In that thread, he basically says there will not be a 5th edition for Gurps, unless the RPG market drastically changes, and the popularity for Gurps increases. It's not really a surprise, but hearing it from Phil makes it real.

What I find hard to believe is why they won't Kickstart it. The diehard fans alone would fund it, assuming it did not have an astronomical funding goal. Throw in a bunch of 4th Edition PDFs as stretch goals and it would skyrocket. The Dungeon Fantasy KS made $176,450 over a $100,000 goal, which isn't a spectacular success but it's a success nonetheless.

As a start, they could simply make a new Gurps Lite, which is something we've wanted since the beginning. Something that could appeal to D&D players who are looking for more realism or grittiness. There's definitely a market there, as evidenced by OSR games that try to do exactly that.

  I love GURPS, but I have to ask, what was the reason given for Masters getting banned for explaining a disadvantage in GURPS?  Was it using the word 'slave'?  I will also say, I think if there is a place GURPS could push up the interest I think a release of lite rules, and gearing a series of adventures towards various genres is a fantastic idea.  I love the world books, but if they are not going to do that, genre themed adventures seems like a great way to give the old school fans something to buy.  I always felt their issue with drawing new fans is the art is not good, and the iconic characters are pretty terrible.   I always felt like they needed to get a setting or two, and the system would have been FANTASTIC for a fallout table top game or RIFTS, Flash Gordon, or something similar.  The rules are great for gritty or pulpy sci fi or Sword and Sorcery.  I think they really should have developed a setting around those themes years ago.  The infinite worlds idea was presented as pretty damned blah. 

Masters got banned for defending the use of the word "slave" and implying that it's a stupid thing to freak out about.

anyhow...

If the plan is to just keep the core in print, and do everything else on-line and I was doing a 4.5 edition the pages wasted on iconic characters and Infinite Worlds would be replaced with the new advantages from powers, more spells, more animals, more martial arts techniques, and more fantasy templates.  I'd probably try to find a good hyper realistic artist to do very evocative but grounded illustrations.

I'd want to make the core stand alone as much as possible.

Now, I know that screws with page references and the cross referencing is one of the reasons there will never be a 5th edition.  But screw it, if ever thing else is pdf we should be able to update all that with a decently smart search and replace function.

I'll always want a GURPS starter with 1/32 action figures in the box and a big modular, build your own science fiction vehicle kit.  But I'd want a space opera starter rather than a fantasy one.

Quote from: Hakdov on April 23, 2021, 10:28:20 PM
I'd rather they reprint 3rd edition than make a new one.  I hated 4e Gurps in just about every way.  Way, way more complicated than I wanted and the artwork was an abortion.

I am firmly in this camp myself, but every time I bring it up someone will educate me about how much better 4th is...the 3rd hardback is the perfect set of rules for a gritty fantasy game, and can also be used for most modern stuff like spy or military games without much effort. I preferred the "advantages in world books" design before they released the compendiums because the whole point was to have stuff that directly pertained to that setting. I can understand moving some of them into the main book with the revised edition (Contacts for instance), but a lot of that stuff really has no place in a BASIC set if you ask me. Doesn't bother me that much, though, when compared to the atrocity that is 4th. That is some bloated bullshit.

Quote from: Brad on April 25, 2021, 10:54:38 AM

Quote from: Hakdov on April 23, 2021, 10:28:20 PM
I'd rather they reprint 3rd edition than make a new one.  I hated 4e Gurps in just about every way.  Way, way more complicated than I wanted and the artwork was an abortion.

I am firmly in this camp myself, but every time I bring it up someone will educate me about how much better 4th is...

4th is so much better.

Oh well now that that's out of the way, my ideal GURPS isn't set up like 4e but I do like the idea of a really complete rulebook, as long as Vehicles is Core Set volume 3.  Mechanically I'm mostly happy with fourth, Personally, I'd change ranged combat, I find people really hate it an I'd list skills as stat - 2 etc rather than "easy, average, hard" then the chart would be just two columns and if anyone finds that impenetrable, I swear I'll punch them in the face.

If you want a one book point of entry, something like 3rd edition is the way to go.   I think you need to cover fantasy in the core, at least enough to get people to try it.  That's the one weakness I see in GURPS lite 4e is that you can't play a basic fantasy game with it.

Ideally, Lite would be the core.  Bulk up the page count a bit with art and a little more discussion on how to use all this stuff.  But every book should be usable with nothing more than lite.

The biggest problem fourth edition faces is that it's far too much for new players to get into.  I don't mind the idea of an ultimate reference work but ideally it would be a database where you could select elements to generate and print out a book to give your players.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 12:07:05 PM
The biggest problem fourth edition faces is that it's far too much for new players to get into.  I don't mind the idea of an ultimate reference work but ideally it would be a database where you could select elements to generate and print out a book to give your players.

This is the perfect solution for a GM to create exactly the rules they want to present to new players.
The main problem is players both being overwhelmed with options at character creation and relying on options that the GM  won't be using.

Quote from: DocJones on April 25, 2021, 01:49:25 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 12:07:05 PM
The biggest problem fourth edition faces is that it's far too much for new players to get into.  I don't mind the idea of an ultimate reference work but ideally it would be a database where you could select elements to generate and print out a book to give your players.

This is the perfect solution for a GM to create exactly the rules they want to present to new players.
The main problem is players both being overwhelmed with options at character creation and relying on options that the GM  won't be using.

So you're always relying on experienced GMs, because it's harder to get a good grasp of the system. Full games, maybe make the Core book the Fantasy one (seems to be the most popular genre), then make another full game with a different bent, Sci-Fi? And then publish "world" books with the extrabits and clear instructions on what to remove from the core book to make it work with the new setting.

Now you can have an influx on new blood into your market demographic.

But what do I know, I'm just some idiot in the interwebs.

I am very not a fan of gurps or SJG. But 3e is for me the best of the editions I've seen so far. There is just something about 4e that feels... lacking?

The main problem with gurps is one thats been discussed here there and everywhere.
Its a big tree that seriously needs to be pruned to fit the campaign. Or a very big toolbox that you need to know which tools to use and which to leave in the box.

And for that you need an experienced DM or at least one good at assembling something from parts, or with a firm idea of what they want and the ability to say "no" to things that dont fit. Otherwise its like any toolbox game and you can end up lost in the sea of options. BESM is another that can suffer from that.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 02:22:25 PM

Quote from: DocJones on April 25, 2021, 01:49:25 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 12:07:05 PM
The biggest problem fourth edition faces is that it's far too much for new players to get into.  I don't mind the idea of an ultimate reference work but ideally it would be a database where you could select elements to generate and print out a book to give your players.

This is the perfect solution for a GM to create exactly the rules they want to present to new players.
The main problem is players both being overwhelmed with options at character creation and relying on options that the GM  won't be using.

So you're always relying on experienced GMs, because it's harder to get a good grasp of the system. Full games, maybe make the Core book the Fantasy one (seems to be the most popular genre), then make another full game with a different bent, Sci-Fi? And then publish "world" books with the extrabits and clear instructions on what to remove from the core book to make it work with the new setting.

Now you can have an influx on new blood into your market demographic.

But what do I know, I'm just some idiot in the interwebs.

You're kind of describing the "Powered by GURPS" branding during 3e. It was a bunch of stand-alone books, each incorporating a version of GURPS Lite tweaked to fit that setting. Discworld, Transhuman Space, Hellboy, etc. They were complete games, playable without any additional books, but compatible with the rest of the line.

I always thought it was a decent approach, and they should focus more on GURPS Lite. But they went full gearhead for 4e, catering to the hardcore end of the fanbase who obsessed over gun stats and vehicles. From that standpoint, 4e is clearly superior. It cleans up a few technical problems, and brings everything together into two tomes. But from an on-ramp for new players standpoint, it's clearly inferior.

My 3e came with the Lite rules which really made the whole thing alot easier to get a handle on.

Quote from: Pat on April 25, 2021, 03:04:41 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 02:22:25 PM

Quote from: DocJones on April 25, 2021, 01:49:25 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 12:07:05 PM
The biggest problem fourth edition faces is that it's far too much for new players to get into.  I don't mind the idea of an ultimate reference work but ideally it would be a database where you could select elements to generate and print out a book to give your players.

This is the perfect solution for a GM to create exactly the rules they want to present to new players.
The main problem is players both being overwhelmed with options at character creation and relying on options that the GM  won't be using.

So you're always relying on experienced GMs, because it's harder to get a good grasp of the system. Full games, maybe make the Core book the Fantasy one (seems to be the most popular genre), then make another full game with a different bent, Sci-Fi? And then publish "world" books with the extrabits and clear instructions on what to remove from the core book to make it work with the new setting.

Now you can have an influx on new blood into your market demographic.

But what do I know, I'm just some idiot in the interwebs.

You're kind of describing the "Powered by GURPS" branding during 3e. It was a bunch of stand-alone books, each incorporating a version of GURPS Lite tweaked to fit that setting. Discworld, Transhuman Space, Hellboy, etc. They were complete games, playable without any additional books, but compatible with the rest of the line.

I always thought it was a decent approach, and they should focus more on GURPS Lite. But they went full gearhead for 4e, catering to the hardcore end of the fanbase who obsessed over gun stats and vehicles. From that standpoint, 4e is clearly superior. It cleans up a few technical problems, and brings everything together into two tomes. But from an on-ramp for new players standpoint, it's clearly inferior.

Well, now I need some spare money to buy at least one of those to give it a read/try.

But GURPS Lite uses less attributes and has other changes no?

Why not use the full core to build those? After getting in because of one you might buy others, or the plain core + world books, provided there's clear instructions on how to use those together.

And HERO has the same problem, they USED to publish full games, then they turned away from that and only do the damn bullet sttoping bricks.

Why is it that SWN, White Star, and other OSR based games sell? Those are full games, you don't need to also buy S&W and know how to combine things. Easier to grook and easier to GM plus new players can latter become new GMs.

No, GURPS lite is full on GURPS, it's actually a really dense book.  But no GURPS has STrength, DeXterity, InQuelligence, and HealTh.  With Fatigue equaling Health, Hitpoints equal to Strength, and Perception and Willpower being equal to Intelligence with all of them being purchasable independently.  Speed is a calculated stat.  Yes first to third edition do it a bit differently but the core four stats remain the same.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 03:17:50 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 25, 2021, 03:04:41 PM
You're kind of describing the "Powered by GURPS" branding during 3e. It was a bunch of stand-alone books, each incorporating a version of GURPS Lite tweaked to fit that setting. Discworld, Transhuman Space, Hellboy, etc. They were complete games, playable without any additional books, but compatible with the rest of the line.

Well, now I need some spare money to buy at least one of those to give it a read/try.

You might be able to save yourself some money. While none of the Powered by GURPS books are free, the GURPS Lite versions customized for at least two of those books are are available as free PDFs:

GURPS Lite for WW2 (3e) http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/ww2/img/ww2lite.pdf
GURPS Lite for Transhuman Space (3e) http://www.sjgames.com/transhuman/img/lite.pdf

Compare to the generic version of GURPS Lite 3e:
http://www.warehouse23.com/products/SJG30-6094
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/3e/gurpslite.pdf

GURPS Lite uses the same 4 attributes as the full version of GURPS. It's trimmed down, not a variant.

Quote from: Pat on April 25, 2021, 06:42:26 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 03:17:50 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 25, 2021, 03:04:41 PM
You're kind of describing the "Powered by GURPS" branding during 3e. It was a bunch of stand-alone books, each incorporating a version of GURPS Lite tweaked to fit that setting. Discworld, Transhuman Space, Hellboy, etc. They were complete games, playable without any additional books, but compatible with the rest of the line.

Well, now I need some spare money to buy at least one of those to give it a read/try.

You might be able to save yourself some money. While none of the Powered by GURPS books are free, the GURPS Lite versions customized for at least two of those books are are available as free PDFs:

GURPS Lite for WW2 (3e) http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/ww2/img/ww2lite.pdf
GURPS Lite for Transhuman Space (3e) http://www.sjgames.com/transhuman/img/lite.pdf

Compare to the generic version of GURPS Lite 3e:
http://www.warehouse23.com/products/SJG30-6094
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/3e/gurpslite.pdf

GURPS Lite uses the same 4 attributes as the full version of GURPS. It's trimmed down, not a variant.

Well thanks, downloading.

So just decide what you think about gurps needs improving and do it, submit it to forums like this and get reviews, feedback, etc. Don't wait for a fix that may never come, fix it yourself. if a few good gamers put their heads together they can do as well as a game company, those people who work at game companies are people just like us, after all.

Quote from: matt swain on April 25, 2021, 07:19:01 PM
So just decide what you think about gurps needs improving and do it, submit it to forums like this and get reviews, feedback, etc. Don't wait for a fix that may never come, fix it yourself. if a few good gamers put their heads together they can do as well as a game company, those people who work at game companies are people just like us, after all.

Yeah, then publish it as GURPS and see what happens...

Or go to the trouble of making an SRD that's bullet proof from a legal standpoint... For free...

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 07:30:27 PM

Quote from: matt swain on April 25, 2021, 07:19:01 PM
So just decide what you think about gurps needs improving and do it, submit it to forums like this and get reviews, feedback, etc. Don't wait for a fix that may never come, fix it yourself. if a few good gamers put their heads together they can do as well as a game company, those people who work at game companies are people just like us, after all.

Yeah, then publish it as GURPS and see what happens...

Or go to the trouble of making an SRD that's bullet proof from a legal standpoint... For free...

Even if you make it bulletproof, they'll still sue. It's not just losing a lawsuit you have to worry about, litigation itself has a high cost, regardless of who wins.

Quote from: Pat on April 25, 2021, 09:15:22 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 07:30:27 PM

Quote from: matt swain on April 25, 2021, 07:19:01 PM
So just decide what you think about gurps needs improving and do it, submit it to forums like this and get reviews, feedback, etc. Don't wait for a fix that may never come, fix it yourself. if a few good gamers put their heads together they can do as well as a game company, those people who work at game companies are people just like us, after all.

Yeah, then publish it as GURPS and see what happens...

Or go to the trouble of making an SRD that's bullet proof from a legal standpoint... For free...

Even if you make it bulletproof, they'll still sue. It's not just losing a lawsuit you have to worry about, litigation itself has a high cost, regardless of who wins.

Exactly, so by just sending you a C&D letter you better comply unless you have the money to throw away to go to court.

Which is why I stick to the OGL systems, and this is why HERO with their BS licence to work for them doesn't attract me in the least.

Here the thing though I do not buy an rpg to then simply houserule into something I like. Why am I buying Gurps in the first place if I am putting more work into fixing it then actually using it. "House rule what you do not like" is an excuse to excuse bad rule design by the authors imo and to a certain extent the fans.

Quote from: sureshot on April 25, 2021, 09:38:17 PM
Here the thing though I do not buy an rpg to then simply houserule into something I like. Why am I buying Gurps in the first place if I am putting more work into fixing it then actually using it. "House rule what you do not like" is an excuse to excuse bad rule design by the authors imo and to a certain extent the fans.

Cause I know better than them and just want to write my own shit anyway, so why wouldn't I houserule it.

I think the real obstacle to a fan replacement for GURPS along the lines of Cephus Engine is that everyone values different things.  GURPS is a really big tent and I've seldom seen fans agree on where it should go.  I've started writing a replacement a number of times at least once or twice on therpgsite's design forum and a couple times elsewhere.

The other obstacle is GURPS Lite exists, and it's free. Why recreate something you can print off and use?

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 04:35:48 PM
No, GURPS lite is full on GURPS, it's actually a really dense book.

Correct. It's basically Gurps Less, the same rules as the core just less of them. But the real problem with Gurps Lite is there are no spells in it, even though "magic" is referenced several times. Gurps Lite 3E managed to squeeze in a few spells, and it's 32 pages just like Gurps Lite 4E.

A "Dungeon Fantasy Lite" could capture some 5E players if it was done right. What does SJG have to lose at this point? 4E came out almost 17 years ago. There are probably fans who would do the work for free.

I've argued the value of some GURPS Lite supplements for years and years.  It's not gonna happen.  There's some fan ones of course but SJG won't do it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 07:30:27 PM

Quote from: matt swain on April 25, 2021, 07:19:01 PM
So just decide what you think about gurps needs improving and do it, submit it to forums like this and get reviews, feedback, etc. Don't wait for a fix that may never come, fix it yourself. if a few good gamers put their heads together they can do as well as a game company, those people who work at game companies are people just like us, after all.

Yeah, then publish it as GURPS and see what happens...

Or go to the trouble of making an SRD that's bullet proof from a legal standpoint... For free...

Did i say publish it? Just put in on some general rpg sites and let people read it. if they want to use it fine.

As for evil stevie, he can eat shit and die mad about it. If you're just saying "Well, these are how we play" and not asking for money, fuck him and his C&D letter. It's called free speech.

I mean a long time ago i proposed a modification to the rules in EP 1E. I suggested asyncs were too fragile so i suggested making an async MORE resistant to the exsurgent virus, not less as the rule ssaid because in 1e asyncs were just too fragile. What? Were they gonna sue me?


I met him at a convention once, BTW. The general consensus after he left was "What a pompous asshole." we asked the organizers never to invite him back. They didn't.

About the only redeeming quality of Steve Jackson is that he is a Texan but that's not saying much. Oh and some of you have said that it's not possible to get the GURPS 3rd edition and 4e books in print anymore. I just thought y'all might like to know that tons of GURPS 3e and 4e books are available as PoD B&W softcovers from Amazon.com

Quote from: matt swain on April 26, 2021, 12:00:16 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 07:30:27 PM

Quote from: matt swain on April 25, 2021, 07:19:01 PM
So just decide what you think about gurps needs improving and do it, submit it to forums like this and get reviews, feedback, etc. Don't wait for a fix that may never come, fix it yourself. if a few good gamers put their heads together they can do as well as a game company, those people who work at game companies are people just like us, after all.

Yeah, then publish it as GURPS and see what happens...

Or go to the trouble of making an SRD that's bullet proof from a legal standpoint... For free...

Did i say publish it? Just put in on some general rpg sites and let people read it. if they want to use it fine.

As for evil stevie, he can eat shit and die mad about it. If you're just saying "Well, these are how we play" and not asking for money, fuck him and his C&D letter. It's called free speech.

I mean a long time ago i proposed a modification to the rules in EP 1E. I suggested asyncs were too fragile so i suggested making an async MORE resistant to the exsurgent virus, not less as the rule ssaid because in 1e asyncs were just too fragile. What? Were they gonna sue me?


I met him at a convention once, BTW. The general consensus after he left was "What a pompous asshole." we asked the organizers never to invite him back. They didn't.

Maybe you don't know about the Open Cthulhu kerfufle, long story short they got sut down by BRP.

As for houseruling GURPS to my liking... Nah, not gonna happen, I've got the OSR, OpenD6, Cepheus Engine and Open Core to play with, and I'm fine with that.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 11:42:26 PM
I've argued the value of some GURPS Lite supplements for years and years.  It's not gonna happen.  There's some fan ones of course but SJG won't do it.

Yep. They went in another direction. Which is fine, they can do what they want. And they do have fans. But it doesn't appeal to me much, anymore.

Still have a lot of GURPS books, though.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 26, 2021, 12:18:19 AM

Quote from: matt swain on April 26, 2021, 12:00:16 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 07:30:27 PM

Quote from: matt swain on April 25, 2021, 07:19:01 PM
So just decide what you think about gurps needs improving and do it, submit it to forums like this and get reviews, feedback, etc. Don't wait for a fix that may never come, fix it yourself. if a few good gamers put their heads together they can do as well as a game company, those people who work at game companies are people just like us, after all.

Yeah, then publish it as GURPS and see what happens...

Or go to the trouble of making an SRD that's bullet proof from a legal standpoint... For free...

Did i say publish it? Just put in on some general rpg sites and let people read it. if they want to use it fine.

As for evil stevie, he can eat shit and die mad about it. If you're just saying "Well, these are how we play" and not asking for money, fuck him and his C&D letter. It's called free speech.

I mean a long time ago i proposed a modification to the rules in EP 1E. I suggested asyncs were too fragile so i suggested making an async MORE resistant to the exsurgent virus, not less as the rule ssaid because in 1e asyncs were just too fragile. What? Were they gonna sue me?


I met him at a convention once, BTW. The general consensus after he left was "What a pompous asshole." we asked the organizers never to invite him back. They didn't.

Maybe you don't know about the Open Cthulhu kerfufle, long story short they got sut down by BRP.

As for houseruling GURPS to my liking... Nah, not gonna happen, I've got the OSR, OpenD6, Cepheus Engine and Open Core to play with, and I'm fine with that.

|most of lovecraft's stuff is PD by now, the reason companies bully a lot of people is few have the guts to tell them to shove their letter and say 'bring it".  In cases like that the companies tend to see it's not a winning proposition.
Npw if they were using the chaosium system that;'s something else.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 23, 2021, 02:50:02 AM
Why would they need a 5th edition? To simplify things? I doubt it. Full games IMHO.

A GURPS 5e would consolidate rules from some of the other GURPS 4e books.

I ran a successful X-Com game using GURPS 4e, which is the one and only time I've used it. It worked quite well for what I wanted from it.

However, next time I run something that I'd consider GURPS for, I will most likely give EABA a spin instead.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 12:07:05 PM
4th is so much better.

YOU'RE TEARING ME APART, LISA!

Specific example of a way 3rd is better than 4th: psionics. And it's not even a close.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern on April 26, 2021, 03:30:05 AM
However, next time I run something that I'd consider GURPS for, I will most likely give EABA a spin instead.

I am a hardcore EABA advocate; it truly is an exceptionally well designed game. However, like GURPS has a fantasy-bent at its roots, EABA clearly has a modern/scifi base. EABA does military, mystery, scifi, HPL-esque gaming better than GURPS, but I'd still prefer GURPS for a gritty fantasy game, or even a sci-fantasy pulpy gaming, depending on what elements you want to include. Conan, GURPS is probably better, something like Yor, I'd use EABA.

If you mean more unbalanced and powerful then psionics certainly are better in third.  But fair enough, one place I lean to third on is supers.  The fourth edition super strength cludge is no better than any of the third edition methods at any rate.  I'll give you the Vehicles support of course.  Fourth dropped the ball, walked off the court, and took the ball with them on that end.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 26, 2021, 02:14:07 PM
If you mean more unbalanced and powerful then psionics certainly are better in third.  But fair enough, one place I lean to third on is supers.  The fourth edition super strength cludge is no better than any of the third edition methods at any rate.  I'll give you the Vehicles support of course.  Fourth dropped the ball, walked off the court, and took the ball with them on that end.

I waited for...10 years for 4th Vehicles? Instead I got nine thousand supplements on how to play GURPS like D&D, and even a whole boxed set.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 23, 2021, 02:12:27 AM
...
In that thread, he basically says there will not be a 5th edition for Gurps, unless the RPG market drastically changes, and the popularity for Gurps increases. It's not really a surprise, but hearing it from Phil makes it real.

What I find hard to believe is why they won't Kickstart it. The diehard fans alone would fund it...

The RPG market did drastically change. It was called the OGL.

They made no move to stay relevant, and now they are where they are.

Continual catering to their diehard fans and ignoring the market at large is a big part of why they have fallen out of the conversation for go-to Rpg systems.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 23, 2021, 11:37:57 AM
   OTOH, is anyone seeing any spillover growth from D&D's huge success? Conventional wisdom was that a growing D&D feeds into the rest of the industry as well, but with the new emphasis on 'lifestyle branding', I'm not so sure that's true any more.

I agree – I think that the percentage of "spill-over" is much less than a decade or two ago.

WOTC has finally figured out with 5e how to market things and make the OGL/SRD work for them.

They have been aided by the fact that all of D&D's former non-d20 mainstay competitors have mismanaged themselves into dwindling fan bases.

Quote from: Bunch on April 23, 2021, 10:07:55 PM
I'd disagree. The various VTT software solutions have benefited greatly from 5e and they almost all support lesser known rpgs.  That may be the best way to grow small title rpgs as it gives you an easy way to find/introduce new players.

If you are tryng to grab market share with a new RPG, making your stuff VTT supported is almost a must. Lots of casual games get played on VTT as opposed to game-stores these days. And not just due to Kung-Flu reasons.

Quote from: Reckall on April 24, 2021, 07:04:33 AM
...
I met a guy that was involved in turning GURPS into an RPG for Interplay. It was off the record so I will not make any names.

Basically, he told me that the whole agreement fell apart because "It was just impossible to work with SJ." ...

Given the success of the franchise, I always wondered how much money SJ lost by being an ass.

Quell surprise...

Quote from: KingCheops on April 23, 2021, 12:35:30 PM
Also lol at GURPS being slimmed down.  ....

Even GURPS "lite" could be streamlined.

In the 4e lite there are several places where they have you dividing by decimal places for things like movement, Range, throwing range, wounding modifiers...

All that decimal shit needs to go. New players and especially GM's see that crap and the book goes right back on the store shelf, or they do not click "add to cart" after seeing that crap in a preview.

Gurps needs a fundamental rethink about what kind of system it wants to be.

And I'll be the heretic and say it: moving to 2d10 instead of 3d6 would be better for the system.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 25, 2021, 11:12:53 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 04:35:48 PM
No, GURPS lite is full on GURPS, it's actually a really dense book.

Correct. It's basically Gurps Less, the same rules as the core just less of them. But the real problem with Gurps Lite is there are no spells in it, even though "magic" is referenced several times. ...

A "Dungeon Fantasy Lite" could capture some 5E players if it was done right. What does SJG have to lose at this point? 4E came out almost 17 years ago. There are probably fans who would do the work for free.

Provided the production values and Art are equal to what we see for 5e and other games it could be worth a chance.

DF and TFT were not it: 1989 called and wanted their production values back. They may play perfectly fine but they look dated and that is not a good look for catching the eye of new players/GM's.

That being said, SJG may just not see the investment giving them any meaningful return. Because it would be a big risk of resources.

It is not just enough to release a good game – it will need to be supported; I.e. Modules, Adventure Paths, the periodic "Tome of everything equivalent", oh and a setting that doesn't suck to go with it all. A minimum of four quality releases a year, every year.

The cost of real competition is high.

I can totally understand SJG- taking a look how much resources such a project would take, and just saying: "Fuck it, we're out."


And, to be honest, even if they had money to burn; I think that they just don't have it in them to take a step back, re-evaluate the system from the top down, and then take the plunge with a focused game.

Quote from: Brad on April 26, 2021, 09:17:24 AM

Quote from: Sable Wyvern on April 26, 2021, 03:30:05 AM
However, next time I run something that I'd consider GURPS for, I will most likely give EABA a spin instead.

I am a hardcore EABA advocate; it truly is an exceptionally well designed game. However, like GURPS has a fantasy-bent at its roots, EABA clearly has a modern/scifi base. EABA does military, mystery, scifi, HPL-esque gaming better than GURPS, but I'd still prefer GURPS for a gritty fantasy game, or even a sci-fantasy pulpy gaming, depending on what elements you want to include. Conan, GURPS is probably better, something like Yor, I'd use EABA.

I wouldn't use either for fantasy.

In the event I do make use of EABA, it will definitely be sci-fi, modern or near future. Possibly A|State. Or something where I can utilise the logarithmic time scale to run some epic battles against ridiculous odds.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 26, 2021, 05:19:05 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on April 23, 2021, 02:12:27 AM
...
In that thread, he basically says there will not be a 5th edition for Gurps, unless the RPG market drastically changes, and the popularity for Gurps increases. It's not really a surprise, but hearing it from Phil makes it real.

What I find hard to believe is why they won't Kickstart it. The diehard fans alone would fund it...

The RPG market did drastically change. It was called the OGL.

They made no move to stay relevant, and now they are where they are.

Continual catering to their diehard fans and ignoring the market at large is a big part of why they have fallen out of the conversation for go-to Rpg systems.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 23, 2021, 11:37:57 AM
   OTOH, is anyone seeing any spillover growth from D&D's huge success? Conventional wisdom was that a growing D&D feeds into the rest of the industry as well, but with the new emphasis on 'lifestyle branding', I'm not so sure that's true any more.

I agree – I think that the percentage of "spill-over" is much less than a decade or two ago.

WOTC has finally figured out with 5e how to market things and make the OGL/SRD work for them.

They have been aided by the fact that all of D&D's former non-d20 mainstay competitors have mismanaged themselves into dwindling fan bases.

Quote from: Bunch on April 23, 2021, 10:07:55 PM
I'd disagree. The various VTT software solutions have benefited greatly from 5e and they almost all support lesser known rpgs.  That may be the best way to grow small title rpgs as it gives you an easy way to find/introduce new players.

If you are tryng to grab market share with a new RPG, making your stuff VTT supported is almost a must. Lots of casual games get played on VTT as opposed to game-stores these days. And not just due to Kung-Flu reasons.

Quote from: Reckall on April 24, 2021, 07:04:33 AM
...
I met a guy that was involved in turning GURPS into an RPG for Interplay. It was off the record so I will not make any names.

Basically, he told me that the whole agreement fell apart because "It was just impossible to work with SJ." ...

Given the success of the franchise, I always wondered how much money SJ lost by being an ass.

Quell surprise...

Quote from: KingCheops on April 23, 2021, 12:35:30 PM
Also lol at GURPS being slimmed down.  ....

Even GURPS "lite" could be streamlined.

In the 4e lite there are several places where they have you dividing by decimal places for things like movement, Range, throwing range, wounding modifiers...

All that decimal shit needs to go. New players and especially GM's see that crap and the book goes right back on the store shelf, or they do not click "add to cart" after seeing that crap in a preview.

Gurps needs a fundamental rethink about what kind of system it wants to be.

And I'll be the heretic and say it: moving to 2d10 instead of 3d6 would be better for the system.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 25, 2021, 11:12:53 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 04:35:48 PM
No, GURPS lite is full on GURPS, it's actually a really dense book.

Correct. It's basically Gurps Less, the same rules as the core just less of them. But the real problem with Gurps Lite is there are no spells in it, even though "magic" is referenced several times. ...

A "Dungeon Fantasy Lite" could capture some 5E players if it was done right. What does SJG have to lose at this point? 4E came out almost 17 years ago. There are probably fans who would do the work for free.

Provided the production values and Art are equal to what we see for 5e and other games it could be worth a chance.

DF and TFT were not it: 1989 called and wanted their production values back. They may play perfectly fine but they look dated and that is not a good look for catching the eye of new players/GM's.

That being said, SJG may just not see the investment giving them any meaningful return. Because it would be a big risk of resources.

It is not just enough to release a good game – it will need to be supported; I.e. Modules, Adventure Paths, the periodic "Tome of everything equivalent", oh and a setting that doesn't suck to go with it all. A minimum of four quality releases a year, every year.

The cost of real competition is high.

I can totally understand SJG- taking a look how much resources such a project would take, and just saying: "Fuck it, we're out."


And, to be honest, even if they had money to burn; I think that they just don't have it in them to take a step back, re-evaluate the system from the top down, and then take the plunge with a focused game.

Greetings!

I have always liked GURPS books. I have put my money on it, and been a loyal customer, having collected a dozen or two dozen books. Rome, Greece, Fantasy, Bestiary, Magic I, Magic II (I think), China, Japan, Russia, Aztecs, Arabia, Vikings, Celts, Medieval, probably some more for sure.

GURPS has always been a 2nd Tier game system though, and as Jaeger detailed, the last 20 years has seen GURPS decline even further, into virtual obscurity. In regular game stores, their products are no where to be found. Back in Southern California, in a few of the older, legacy game stores, D&D would get all the premium shelf space, spinners, front-loaded displays--while GURPS books would be found in a box or two in the back room, almost hidden, along with a dozen other ancient obscure, failed, also-ran game systems from decades ago, or even more recent games that have none the less proven to be failures and quickly sank beneath the waves after a brief period of life.

That is where GURPS is at.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

No, GURPS is on Amazon print on demand.  SJG has largely abandoned retail GURPS.  I'm not going to disagree with a decision based on sales data I don't have.  The way they're handling GURPS is the way they find it makes them the most money.

Powered by GURPS stuff like Vorkosigian and Discworld haven't been huge successes.  Dungeon Fantasy was declared a failure due to cost overruns and late delivery but then they had to reprint it.  SJG is cautious and I can't say I can blame them.  Disappointed, sure but I've backed away from the pissed off an disgusted level I reached a few times.

I've been putting my simple 3d6 stuff together after shooting my mouth off in a GURPS thread on tbp.  It's a bit of a pain because I want this piece from this version and that piece from that version, but I want it to be internally compatible which means digging through everything and integrating it.  Still, I've got to admit that between this and the tbp WIR Banestorm thread, I'm beginning to think there might be sufficient interest to put it together.  It's just, I can't please everyone and GURPS is a lot of different things to different people.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 12:25:38 AM
No, GURPS is on Amazon print on demand.  SJG has largely abandoned retail GURPS.  I'm not going to disagree with a decision based on sales data I don't have.  The way they're handling GURPS is the way they find it makes them the most money.

Powered by GURPS stuff like Vorkosigian and Discworld haven't been huge successes.  Dungeon Fantasy was declared a failure due to cost overruns and late delivery but then they had to reprint it.  SJG is cautious and I can't say I can blame them.  Disappointed, sure but I've backed away from the pissed off an disgusted level I reached a few times.

I've been putting my simple 3d6 stuff together after shooting my mouth off in a GURPS thread on tbp.  It's a bit of a pain because I want this piece from this version and that piece from that version, but I want it to be internally compatible which means digging through everything and integrating it.  Still, I've got to admit that between this and the tbp WIR Banestorm thread, I'm beginning to think there might be sufficient interest to put it together.  It's just, I can't please everyone and GURPS is a lot of different things to different people.

My unwanted advice:

Don't try to please everyone, make what you think/feel is what you want/need. My bet is it will be close enough to make it worth your time/effort.

Well, my Galaxies In Shadow and The Arcane Confabulation rpgs are what I want and need but I've found most other people aren't big on the math there.  And, they aren't anything like GURPS.

One of the brilliant things about GURPS is how small the core game really is.  You've got Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, and Health.  They start at ten and cost ten points per additional point or point down.  (yes 3 & 4e both do this a bit differently).  Perception, Willpower, Fatigue, and Hit Points all start at ten and have a specific cost per point but for this simple and stripped down version they're all 5 points.  Move starts at 5 but is also 5 points per point.  I'd strip something else off of Dexterity just to make it balance.  I separated them out from the stats to make the prices uniform.  Basing them off a stat keeps the core block small but so does assuming they're a ten if you don't write them down. 

Skills are based on a stat (sometimes it'd be nice to average DX & IQ or have some kind of bonus) and have a difficulty of 0,-1, or -2.  At 0 points there is an additional -4. The cost is 1 point for 0, 2 points for +1, 4 points  for +3, 4 points for each +1 thereafter.  If we lumped the skills into groups of five we could divide all the point costs by 5.  I'm not going to do much with the skill list here but I'd trim the core list considerably.  I'm not sold on the 5 point blocks as it distorts the cost relationship with attributes a bit but it would be an easy way to do a 100% compatible retro clone except you'd need to re-name everything just to be on the safe side.

Advantages are: Charisma (5 points per +1 to reaction rolls), Combat Reflexes (15 points, no mental stun from surprise, +1 active defenses), Damage Reistance (5 points per point), Enhanced Move (20 points per x2), Enhanced Strength (50 points for x 2 but doesn't affect most success rolls),  Magical Aptitude (which I'm tempted to turn into a base 10 stat, but for now 5 points for 0, 15 for 1, 25 for two), Status (5 points per level), Wealth (10 points per x 2).

Disadvantages (and here I'd be quite tempted to keep the allocation low):  Mental (5 points per -1 to self control), Physical (5 points per -1 to skill group or 1/2 move), or Social  (5 points per -1 to reaction rolls).

Success on 3d6 equal to or under rating.  3 is automatic critical success.  4 is automatic success.  6 or less is a critical success if 10 less than skill.  17 is automatic failure.  18 is automatic critical failure.  Some circumstances including stress increases the critical failure range.  Yes, I think I'd make a stress mechanic core.  Contests are resolved by margin of success (I don't know, I'd like something cleaner but as we're presenting GURPS as GURPS we'll go with it.)

Reaction Rolls on 3d6 with a circumstances penalty like hostile intruder in home -10.  lower is negative, 10 is neutral higher is positive, a successful social skill roll provides a bonus under specific circumstances (I don't like the current rating ensures reaction rule).  Fast Talk for example "whoa, hey!  You're not Lenny!  What are you doing in Lenny's house?  What, this isn't Lenny's house?  But the key worked and everything, I'm really sorry man!  What was that address?"

Combat is played in order of Move.  Surprise is determined with a Perception check and shaken off with a Willpower check.  Ranged attacks are at -4 for every factor of 10 meters (yeah I went there) past 10 meters but you can break it down with a chart.  Aiming gives you the weapon's accuracy bonus.  Scopes give an accuracy bonus.  All Out Attack is two attacks, +4 to hit, or +2 damage for everything including missile weapons but allows no defense rolls.  Automatic fire is done at +1 per x 2 rounds and gets 1 hit per recoil margin of success.

A combatant gets a defense roll against any attack they're aware of.  Parries are at 1/2 skill +3.  Blocks are at 1/2 skill + Shield Bonus.  Dodges are at Move +3 - Encumbrance.

Muscle powered weapon damage is at 1d per 5 points of Strength with a chart that goes: 1d, 1d + 1 1d +2, 2d-1, 2d and so forth. This is a bit higher than the current rules because I feel it would help the game scale down better.  Thrust damage is -1 point per die but this will be integrated into the weapon charts. (I think most people would find weapons with stats by strength requirement to be easier than the current variable with calculations method, which is a bit of a chore as is).  Damage resistance is subtracted from damage.  Some weapons have an armor divisor or a damage multiplier like this: (2)2d-1(1.5).

If an attack does more than half the target's Strength before armor, they are knocked down.  If an attack does more than half their Hit Points after armor they are stunned and -4 to defend until they can make a Health roll.  If they are at less than half Hit Points they must make a Willpower roll to go faster than half move.  If they are at 0 Hit Points or less they must make a Health Roll each round to remain conscious.  If they are fully negative and at each full multiple they must roll Health to avoid dying.

Really, that's about it.

I guess if we were doing fantasy I'd add that spells are skills.  The cost to cast goes down by 1 at 15 and 20.  At 21+ you can cast at a glance.  Regular spells are -1 per hex.  Missile spells are Accuracy 1, 1/2Damage 50, and Max 150 you can add 1d per round up to 3 + your skill discount.  Area spells multiply their cost by the radius.  Blocking Spells are defense rolls.  Enchantments are 1 day per point. ( I think enchanted items should do more than let you cast a spell you don't know, I suggest they should have 1 charge per enchantment put into them)  Duration would generally be a minute but the maintain cost would be 1/2 casting cost and you'd get your skill discount on it so keeping a spell like Flight up indefinantly would be more practical. Structurally spell costs should mirror advantage and skill costs with a general +1 to a skills costing 1 point and attributes costing 2.  The standard casting time is 1 second and I don't aim to mess with it much though maybe 1 second per point of energy would be the way to go.  Yes this would make things like Drain Life more useful in combat.  Enchantment costs would be a pretty standard x 100 but that would be for one use.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 12:25:38 AM
No, GURPS is on Amazon print on demand.  SJG has largely abandoned retail GURPS.  I'm not going to disagree with a decision based on sales data I don't have.  The way they're handling GURPS is the way they find it makes them the most money.

So Gurps is done then.

World of Darkness went to a POD model a few years after they got bought out by a video game company. "Handling their IP the way they find it makes them the most money."

And it went downhill from there.

The perennial #2 RPG in the hobby for over a decade now barely registers as a fart in 5e's wake.

Although evidently you can find people who play V5.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 12:25:38 AM
Powered by GURPS stuff like Vorkosigian and Discworld haven't been huge successes. ....

They made what about who?

The fact that those were done at all shows how distant SJG had become from the mainstream RPG hobby.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 12:25:38 AM
I've been putting my simple 3d6 stuff together after shooting my mouth off in a GURPS thread on tbp.  ...Still, I've got to admit that between this and the tbp WIR Banestorm thread, I'm beginning to think there might be sufficient interest to put it together.  It's just, I can't please everyone and GURPS is a lot of different things to different people.

FWIW I feel GeekyBugle is right.

Whatever you do: Don't try to please everyone.

Take a risk, try to deliver something different to catch peoples interest.

Best of luck.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 26, 2021, 05:19:05 PM
Even GURPS "lite" could be streamlined.

In the 4e lite there are several places where they have you dividing by decimal places for things like movement, Range, throwing range, wounding modifiers...

All that decimal shit needs to go. New players and especially GM's see that crap and the book goes right back on the store shelf, or they do not click "add to cart" after seeing that crap in a preview.

Gurps needs a fundamental rethink about what kind of system it wants to be.

And I'll be the heretic and say it: moving to 2d10 instead of 3d6 would be better for the system.

I'll climb right up on the bonfire with you.  If someone built a streamlined GURPS based on 2d10 for resolution, I'd buy it and run it simply because they made the effort.  If it was halfway decent, I'd probably run it a lot.  A lot of edge cases go away or at least become trivial with that change.

https://anydice.com/program/c055

So why use 2D10 over 3D6? Serious question...in my opinion, one of the perks of GURPS is that you can get dice for it pretty much anywhere. Is it just because of the smoother curve?

Well, there's this one: http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/3d6fmt.pdf

Would 1d20 roll under be close enough?

http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/fivestat.pdf

I actually started filing the serial numbers off the summary I posted.  Awareness for Perception, Physique for Strength and so forth, but just like every time I've done so, it quickly drifted away as a dozen things became attributes.  I think the value of GURPS is partially in the shared language for describing things it presents.  That's where calling everything something else really doesn't work out or serve any purpose.

Here's a little project I stayed up too late putting together last night.

http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/gurpscard.pdf

In hindsight I should have done it on a playing card instead of a business card.  I could have gone with 9point type and SJG prints a lot of playing cards.  It works as a "GURPS isn't that hard" promotional type thing.

Quote from: Brad on April 27, 2021, 09:49:07 AM
https://anydice.com/program/c055

So why use 2D10 over 3D6? Serious question...in my opinion, one of the perks of GURPS is that you can get dice for it pretty much anywhere. Is it just because of the smoother curve?

Smoother curve and longer curve for me.  I'd actually like something like 2d12 or 1d10 + 1d12 even more for the length of the curve.  And you can do some nifty things with different dice.  Even d8 + d12 would be fun.  However, that loses a lot of the simplicity of 2d10--making all of them suspect for any kind of game you want to have a wide audience.

Essentially, the grain of the possible useful modifiers with 3d6 is so coarse that it only works for me with systems that are less complex than GURPS (or Hero), especially on the low-end of fantasy or other places that I would want to use skills.  For supers, doesn't matter so much, which is why I think the default of 3d6 for standard Hero is fine.  Note that this is all as much personal taste as anything else.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 09:51:12 AM
Well, there's this one: http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/3d6fmt.pdf

Would 1d20 roll under be close enough?

http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/fivestat.pdf

I actually started filing the serial numbers off the summary I posted.  Awareness for Perception, Physique for Strength and so forth, but just like every time I've done so, it quickly drifted away as a dozen things became attributes.  I think the value of GURPS is partially in the shared language for describing things it presents.  That's where calling everything something else really doesn't work out or serve any purpose.

Here's a little project I stayed up too late putting together last night.

http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/gurpscard.pdf

In hindsight I should have done it on a playing card instead of a business card.  I could have gone with 9point type and SJG prints a lot of playing cards.  It works as a "GURPS isn't that hard" promotional type thing.

  Didnt Alternity use the roll under D20?  I never played it, own a few of the books, it actually looks like a system that was a good fit for sci fi.  I think it did have a 4-5 page character sheet, and that looked daunting.  Anyone have any experience with playing the Alternity game?

Quote from: oggsmash on April 27, 2021, 01:00:08 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 09:51:12 AM
Well, there's this one: http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/3d6fmt.pdf

Would 1d20 roll under be close enough?

http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/fivestat.pdf

I actually started filing the serial numbers off the summary I posted.  Awareness for Perception, Physique for Strength and so forth, but just like every time I've done so, it quickly drifted away as a dozen things became attributes.  I think the value of GURPS is partially in the shared language for describing things it presents.  That's where calling everything something else really doesn't work out or serve any purpose.

Here's a little project I stayed up too late putting together last night.

http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/gurpscard.pdf

In hindsight I should have done it on a playing card instead of a business card.  I could have gone with 9point type and SJG prints a lot of playing cards.  It works as a "GURPS isn't that hard" promotional type thing.

  Didnt Alternity use the roll under D20?  I never played it, own a few of the books, it actually looks like a system that was a good fit for sci fi.  I think it did have a 4-5 page character sheet, and that looked daunting.  Anyone have any experience with playing the Alternity game?

I played Alternity for about 2 years. The game has some really weird mechanics in places. In some cases, it's hard to tell if certain outcomes were intended features or unintended bugs

Rules Heavy RPGs in general are suffering since videogames have gotten better. The ttRPG niche requires making use of the fuzzy logic interpreter that is the GM and shit tons of optional rules for things does not align to that.

Since GURPS is so focused on the simulation aspect, the books themselves tend to be well researched and make for good scholarly RPG reading. That doesn't translate to high player growth. I personally had to trick my group into playing GURPS once and they were not super into it.

What would a GURPS 5e do? How would it be successful? I can only speak to my inclinations, but if a GURPS 5e existed, I do not think it should come with a core rule-book or core rules. Individual well researched RPG IPs. Preferably big A4 tomes that come with a pdf. You sell to enthusiast GMs like myself and include 5-7 premade characters with the book so I could run a one-shot to "sell the game". 

I personally would not call it 5e. The "powered by GURPS" tag would work better and keep your core 4e fans happy. It's real shame GURPS does not have a book for IPs like "The Expanse", "Game of Thrones", and other gritty popular IPs that could benefit from a simulationist traditional RPG that blushes because their combat rounds are a "ludicrously long" 1-second.
Basically any popular IP where people want to really dig into the world would be good for the GURPS approach. 

The reason GURPS isn't more popular is that it is generic.  It requires work on the part of the GM and players to curate the selection of systems in play.  Most modern gamers don't want to handle this customization and turn to something ready to go.  All of the generic toolbox's have the same issue.

For example Chaosium's BGB is pretty much dead in the water, but Call of Cthulhu is one of the most popular games out there.  Same base system but one is tailored and bundled to a setting.

My sneaking suspicion is that modern gamers don't have as much of the time to do the DIY that was popular in the 80s and 90s due to all the distractions of technology in our lives.  Publishers of these generic systems need to come up with a way to streamline the content to fit modern players.

Quote from: Palleon on April 27, 2021, 02:17:12 PM
The reason GURPS isn't more popular is that it is generic.  It requires work on the part of the GM and players to curate the selection of systems in play.  Most modern gamers don't want to handle this customization and turn to something ready to go.  All of the generic toolbox's have the same issue.

For example Chaosium's BGB is pretty much dead in the water, but Call of Cthulhu is one of the most popular games out there.  Same base system but one is tailored and bundled to a setting.

My sneaking suspicion is that modern gamers don't have as much of the time to do the DIY that was popular in the 80s and 90s due to all the distractions of technology in our lives.  Publishers of these generic systems need to come up with a way to streamline the content to fit modern players.

FFG might have had much the same issue when they tried to pull the narrative dice system out of Star Wars and put it out as Genesys. I don't know about its overall success, but with the players I've spoken to, they put up with the dice system because of Star Wars rather than going to Star Wars for the narrative dice. For them, Genesys just didn't have what they wanted.

I did buy Alternity and ran it once.  It was bad.  I really can't imagine why people like it.  There's like three different sets of scales that shift around in the damage system.  But it's d20 + dn roll over target number at the heart.  Very D&D like if the D&D designers really thought you needed a bunch of different scale shifts every time you roll damage.  Also, it's one of those games where Intelligence gives you bonus skill points, which isn't what you want if you want a points system.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 02:36:50 PM
I did buy Alternity and ran it once.  It was bad.  I really can't imagine why people like it.  There's like three different sets of scales that shift around in the damage system.  But it's d20 + dn roll over target number at the heart.  Very D&D like if the D&D designers really thought you needed a bunch of different scale shifts every time you roll damage.  Also, it's one of those games where Intelligence gives you bonus skill points, which isn't what you want if you want a points system.

It absolutely is NOT roll over.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 02:36:50 PM
I did buy Alternity and ran it once.  It was bad.  I really can't imagine why people like it.  There's like three different sets of scales that shift around in the damage system.  But it's d20 + dn roll over target number at the heart.  Very D&D like if the D&D designers really thought you needed a bunch of different scale shifts every time you roll damage.  Also, it's one of those games where Intelligence gives you bonus skill points, which isn't what you want if you want a points system.

I actually loved the damage system in theory till I tried it out for the first time and realized that it dragged in practice. This was decades ago, so I don't remember the specifics, but it kinda slowed combat down and didn't quite convey the feel of varying degrees of injury how I thought it would. It was kinda like having a hit point system, only more complicated and broken down into three pools.

I also liked the basic idea of degrees of success for ability rolls, but didn't like the roll-under mechanic used in Alternity. In d20+Mod games I tend to break success into Marginal as a base level of success, then Complete Success at 5+ or Critical Success at 10+.

Quote from: Brad on April 27, 2021, 09:49:07 AM
https://anydice.com/program/c055

So why use 2D10 over 3D6? Serious question...in my opinion, one of the perks of GURPS is that you can get dice for it pretty much anywhere. Is it just because of the smoother curve?

IMHO The 3d6 bell curve is almost too perfect for rpg's.

The cutoff points for skills where you will almost always fail a roll or almost always succeed are too predictable.

The flatter pyramid curve of 2d10 stretches the probabilities out so PC's will have a wider range where their skill numbers are relevant but do not tend to deliver automatic results.

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 27, 2021, 02:21:09 PM
FFG might have had much the same issue when they tried to pull the narrative dice system out of Star Wars and put it out as Genesys. I don't know about its overall success, but with the players I've spoken to, they put up with the dice system because of Star Wars rather than going to Star Wars for the narrative dice. For them, Genesys just didn't have what they wanted.

Genesys is done as a system without Star Wars to back it.  No one likes proprietary dice.

Star Wars is one of three RPG IP's that sell almost regardless of the system attached to it. (Conan, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars.)

Most of their previous system iterations are nowhere now that they do not have the IP behind them. IMHO the d6 system had the most promise, but WEG ran into other issues.

Quote from: Palleon on April 27, 2021, 02:17:12 PM
...  Most modern gamers don't want to handle this customization and turn to something ready to go.  All of the generic toolbox's have the same issue....

My sneaking suspicion is that modern gamers don't have as much of the time to do the DIY that was popular in the 80s and 90s due to all the distractions of technology in our lives. Publishers of these generic systems need to come up with a way to streamline the content to fit modern players.

I'll quibble a bit...

I think that you are right about toolkits being too generic, but I think that DIY has taken a different turn due to the big effect of the OGL on the hobby.

Most people want to do an established game like D&D, but... (Insert my better house rule here.)

Why turn to a generic system where you do all the heavy lifting when you can pick up the OGL or SRD of a system that already has 80% of what you want and tune to taste.

Path of least resistance and all that...

Quote from: Palleon on April 27, 2021, 02:17:12 PM
The reason GURPS isn't more popular is that it is generic.  It requires work on the part of the GM and players to curate the selection of systems in play.  Most modern gamers don't want to handle this customization and turn to something ready to go.  All of the generic toolbox's have the same issue.

For example Chaosium's BGB is pretty much dead in the water, but Call of Cthulhu is one of the most popular games out there.  Same base system but one is tailored and bundled to a setting.

My sneaking suspicion is that modern gamers don't have as much of the time to do the DIY that was popular in the 80s and 90s due to all the distractions of technology in our lives.  Publishers of these generic systems need to come up with a way to streamline the content to fit modern players.

Ehhh Savage Worlds is still pretty popular.

But Savage Worlds has an "easy mode" of being able to run plot point campaigns. A GM may use Savage Worlds as a tool kit to something else, but does not have too.

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 27, 2021, 02:52:01 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 02:36:50 PM
I did buy Alternity and ran it once.  It was bad.  I really can't imagine why people like it.  There's like three different sets of scales that shift around in the damage system.  But it's d20 + dn roll over target number at the heart.  Very D&D like if the D&D designers really thought you needed a bunch of different scale shifts every time you roll damage.  Also, it's one of those games where Intelligence gives you bonus skill points, which isn't what you want if you want a points system.

It absolutely is NOT roll over.

Fair enough, it was a long time ago, my brain just remembers it as a fiddly D&D offshoot.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 07:09:23 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 27, 2021, 02:52:01 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 02:36:50 PM
I did buy Alternity and ran it once.  It was bad.  I really can't imagine why people like it.  There's like three different sets of scales that shift around in the damage system.  But it's d20 + dn roll over target number at the heart.  Very D&D like if the D&D designers really thought you needed a bunch of different scale shifts every time you roll damage.  Also, it's one of those games where Intelligence gives you bonus skill points, which isn't what you want if you want a points system.

It absolutely is NOT roll over.

Fair enough, it was a long time ago, my brain just remembers it as a fiddly D&D offshoot.

Yeah, this was 2e era, so it was roll-under. And difficulty was rolled using increasing dice types (1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d12 and 1d20) per each step of difficulty, added to your roll-under 1d20 roll if circumstances increased your difficulty, or subtracted from your roll if they reduced your difficulty. It was an odd mix of 2e era D&D mechanics and newer innovations sort of hamfisted into it. Most of them awesome ideas that sounded good on paper but didn't fully pay out in practice, from my brief experience with it.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 27, 2021, 05:03:20 PM
Ehhh Savage Worlds is still pretty popular.

But Savage Worlds has an "easy mode" of being able to run plot point campaigns. A GM may use Savage Worlds as a tool kit to something else, but does not have too.

In Savage Worlds defense* they have been very savvy about having complete games with well known IP attached to their system.

To say nothing of the ease of use differences between the relatively thin SW rules set and the GURPS tome.


* This by is no means a caveat to the fact that Savage Worlds still Fucking Sucks.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 27, 2021, 01:53:16 PM
It's real shame GURPS does not have a book for IPs like "The Expanse", "Game of Thrones", and other gritty popular IPs that could benefit from a simulationist traditional RPG that blushes because their combat rounds are a "ludicrously long" 1-second. Basically any popular IP where people want to really dig into the world would be good for the GURPS approach.

Rumor has it that GRR Martin is a Gurps fan. Or played Gurps. No idea if it is true.

Here's my thoughts, if you're interested in feedback.

Quote from: David JohansenI'd strip something else off of Dexterity just to make it balance.

Agree. I want to split it into Agility (close combat, athletics, etc.) and Coordination (range combat, vehicle, etc.) 10 points each.

Quote from: David JohansenThe cost is 1 point for 0, 2 points for +1, 4 points  for +3, 4 points for each +1 thereafter.

Nice. Are you getting rid of Easy/Avg/Hard? I would. 

Quote from: David JohansenIf we lumped the skills into groups of five we could divide all the point costs by 5.

Not sure what you mean. Maybe combining First Aid, Physician, Surgeon, Pharmacist, etc. into one skill called Medical? That sort of thing?

Quote from: David Johansenbut I'd trim the core list considerably.

Agree. I've got it down to about 60 skills (16 combat, 42 non-combat.) The rest of the skills in Gurps are mostly "cup stacking."

Quote from: David JohansenCharisma (5 points per +1 to reaction rolls)

What do you think of Charisma as an att? It trashes reaction rolls, but I'm ok with that. I mentioned it on the Gurps Forums and they had a cow.

Quote from: David JohansenMagical Aptitude (which I'm tempted to turn into a base 10 stat...

Interesting.

Quote from: David JohansenMental (5 points per -1 to self control), Physical (5 points per -1 to skill group or 1/2 move), or Social  (5 points per -1 to reaction rolls).

Nice. 

Quote from: David Johansen3 is automatic critical success.  4 is automatic success.  6 or less is a critical success if 10 less than skill.  17 is automatic failure.  18 is automatic critical failure.  Some circumstances including stress increases the critical failure range.

I'm in favor of 3 = CF and 18 = CS. Simple and easy.

Quote from: David JohansenContests are resolved by margin of success (I don't know, I'd like something cleaner but as we're presenting GURPS as GURPS we'll go with it.)

What about a blackjack mechanic? Winner = highest successful roll.

Quote from: David JohansenReaction Rolls

I'm either in favor of tossing out Reaction Rolls, OR adopting the mechanic for the entire game. But that would make the game 3d6 roll-over.

Quote from: David JohansenCombat is played in order of Move.

One game (I forget which) had a simple initiative system: The guy who says "I attack" first-- goes first. Then everyone goes in Move order. Sort of makes sense.

Quote from: David JohansenMuscle powered weapon damage... it would help the game scale down better.

Not sure what you mean?

Quote from: David JohansenThrust damage is -1 point per die but this will be integrated into the weapon charts.

Excellent. Is it possible to do the same for the damage multipliers (piercing, slashing, imp, etc.)

Quote from: David JohansenIf an attack does more than half the target's Strength before armor, they are knocked down.  If an attack does more than half their Hit Points after armor they are stunned and -4 to defend until they can make a Health roll.  If they are at less than half Hit Points they must make a Willpower roll to go faster than half move.  If they are at 0 Hit Points or less they must make a Health Roll each round to remain conscious.  If they are fully negative and at each full multiple they must roll Health to avoid dying.

Nice.

Quote from: David Johansenspells are skills

Have you looked at Sorcery yet? Basically spells as advantages (with mods.) I've never seen it, but I'm a big fan of game balance and I think it would "Hero-ize" the game a bit. Which I think is a good thing.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 27, 2021, 09:48:22 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 27, 2021, 01:53:16 PM
It's real shame GURPS does not have a book for IPs like "The Expanse", "Game of Thrones", and other gritty popular IPs that could benefit from a simulationist traditional RPG that blushes because their combat rounds are a "ludicrously long" 1-second. Basically any popular IP where people want to really dig into the world would be good for the GURPS approach.

Rumor has it that GRR Martin is a Gurps fan. Or played Gurps. No idea if it is true.

Yeah, I've read that too.  But Wild Cards was inspired by his Superworld campaign.

Aglondir, thanks for the feedback, whatever I do, it will be further from GURPS than that summary / musing.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 27, 2021, 09:48:22 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 27, 2021, 01:53:16 PM
It's real shame GURPS does not have a book for IPs like "The Expanse", "Game of Thrones", and other gritty popular IPs that could benefit from a simulationist traditional RPG that blushes because their combat rounds are a "ludicrously long" 1-second. Basically any popular IP where people want to really dig into the world would be good for the GURPS approach.

Rumor has it that GRR Martin is a Gurps fan. Or played Gurps. No idea if it is true.

The Wild Card series was based on a Superworld (Chaosium) campaign that G.R.R. Martin ran. GURPS published several Wild Cards books. The two may have been conflated.

Looks like there are plans to do "Powered by GURPS" complete games from here on out. That's what the Dungeon Fantasy box was, and they've done one for Vorkosigan, and I guess maybe Transhuman Space was the first one that established the model.

I SJG just dropped a PDF for a Girl Genius game powered by GURPS on Drivethru and it has an ad at the end for an upcoming Kickstarter to fund a hardcover print. 

Seems like POD through Drivethru would be the way to go for them to me, but I'm not up on the business side. They could bring back all their books from the old saddle stitched full bleed covers to the "frame" era of 3rd and stop printing B&W soft covers of their 4th and let Drivethru/Lightning produce it as a SC, HC, Color, B&W, or premium color.

GURPS DiscWorld is also a complete game.  Before that WWII and Hellboy were also complete.  I'm not sure about GURPS Myth but I think it was as well.

GURPS Myth isn't a complete game, it's just a supplement. The other Powered by GURPS games are Prime Directive and Conspiracy X. And the Transhuman Space hardcover was powered by GURPS, but the softcover wasn't.

It was pretty random, and they often skipped the branding, so it was hard to tell what fell under that category.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 23, 2021, 02:12:27 AM
I'm not going to link to the thread at TBP nor will I quote it. It's the one where Phil Masters (of Steve Jackson Games) got a ban for explaining what the disadvantage "slave mentality" means in Gurps.

In that thread, he basically says there will not be a 5th edition for Gurps, unless the RPG market drastically changes, and the popularity for Gurps increases. It's not really a surprise, but hearing it from Phil makes it real.

What I find hard to believe is why they won't Kickstart it. The diehard fans alone would fund it, assuming it did not have an astronomical funding goal. Throw in a bunch of 4th Edition PDFs as stretch goals and it would skyrocket. The Dungeon Fantasy KS made $176,450 over a $100,000 goal, which isn't a spectacular success but it's a success nonetheless.

As a start, they could simply make a new Gurps Lite, which is something we've wanted since the beginning. Something that could appeal to D&D players who are looking for more realism or grittiness. There's definitely a market there, as evidenced by OSR games that try to do exactly that.

Who's playing Dungeon Fantasy? Not those that collected the KS printing probably.
Also, we don't need a 5th Edition of GURPS.
And if D&D players for f*cks sake aren't interested in GURPS by now, they never will be no matter how many times GURPS gets a new hardcover.

To be fair, 3e, 4e they're very playable and the only reason there is a -need- for a new edition is to inject new blood, and to DITCH THE GAWD AWFUL CGI ART of 4e.  Maybe better bindings while you're at it.

I have a SHITLOAD of GURPS books, and they're a good read and useful no matter what game I'm running (if I need historical x or y references) but they tend to the dry.

The books have always read more like textbooks than exciting novels.  Gygax and co. may have been quirky but there was a story-telling vibe in the 1st edition books.

I've recently started a GURPS Monster Hunters Campaign; it's got all the bells and whistles to play anything from Men in Black to Buffy/Supernatural... but it just seems to never have been well marketed.

Going the route of more 'Powered by GURPS' could work... but whoever chases or chooses licenses either needs to stop with their pet projects or be given something of a budget.

GURPS The Vorkosigan Saga Sourcebook and Roleplaying Game anyone?  How about Humanx?  Uplift?  New Sun?  Lensman?  (To be fair, that's the ONE I had heard of.)  Horseclans?

They had Conan, and made it... dull.  There's some book I have, based on a John Carter knock-off set on Venus (couldn't be bothered to dig for it.)

For the most part, they seem to have licensed stuff no one else wanted, or didn't push hard enough when they had a good one.  (I find the Star Fleet Battles 'timeline' of Prime Directive is FAR more interesting for role-playing.)

Full disclosure, I was a MiB for a while.  The screw job that the European MiB's got on their points, the fact that all I was ever expected to play and talk was ENDLESS games of Munchkin, and the relatively shitty Florida Convention circuit (MegaCon and.....??) got me out of it.

Quote from: LiferGamer on September 16, 2021, 09:29:56 PM
...
Going the route of more 'Powered by GURPS' could work... but whoever chases or chooses licenses either needs to stop with their pet projects or be given something of a budget.

GURPS The Vorkosigan Saga Sourcebook and Roleplaying Game anyone?  How about Humanx?  Uplift?  New Sun?  Lensman?  (To be fair, that's the ONE I had heard of.)  Horseclans?...

For the most part, they seem to have licensed stuff no one else wanted, ...

This always seems to be the case when you say: "What GRUPS IP?" and the reply is: "But, but, but they had IP x, y, z..."

Ummm, yeah, nobody cares about IPs x,y,z...

Quote from: LiferGamer on September 16, 2021, 09:29:56 PM
They had Conan, and made it... dull. 

WTF What!? I didn't know that. I had to go and look that up...

So they had one of the RPG hobbies evergreen IPs, and proceeded to go absolutely nowhere with it...

The same IP that Mongoose did two editions and piles of supplements of. The same IP that Modiphius uses their 2d20 house system that nobody cares about, yet their Conan line still sells very well for them.

I mean they had the license back in 1989, when GURPS was very much still something in the hobby, and they couldn't even leverage the Conan IP to show the GURPs system in its best light, it in their heyday!?

#wowjustwow...

So yeah for SJG, GURPS will continue a slide into obscurity. Evidently the signs were there much earlier than I had first supposed.

It seems that GURPS is a typical example of a company that had a good idea that hit, but from that point forward they just couldn't get out of their own way, and when the hobby moved on, they didn't.

More than ever I'm convinced I'm right about what I posted earlier this year back in reply #65:

I think that they just don't have it in them to take a step back, re-evaluate the system from the top down, and then take the plunge with a properly focused and supported game.

For that to happen there would have to be evidence of a surge in GURPS sales and a massive drop in Munchkin sales, and absolutely nothing else in sight.  Even then, they'd probably try to make GURPS 4e go rather than doing a new edition because, if you've got a spike in sales, why would you mess with that?

I honestly think Steve Jackson wants to sail off into retirement in peace. And given SJG is probably a single proprietorship or some other closed structure (corporation? llc? lllp?) not dealing with public stocks, I don't blame him and his last aging cadre.  8) You done good, SJ, milk that Munchkin for a gilded walk-in, sit-down, geriatric shower.  ;D

Quote from: Aglondir on April 23, 2021, 02:12:27 AM
I'm not going to link to the thread at TBP nor will I quote it. It's the one where Phil Masters (of Steve Jackson Games) got a ban for explaining what the disadvantage "slave mentality" means in Gurps.

In that thread, he basically says there will not be a 5th edition for Gurps, unless the RPG market drastically changes, and the popularity for Gurps increases. It's not really a surprise, but hearing it from Phil makes it real.

What I find hard to believe is why they won't Kickstart it. The diehard fans alone would fund it, assuming it did not have an astronomical funding goal. Throw in a bunch of 4th Edition PDFs as stretch goals and it would skyrocket. The Dungeon Fantasy KS made $176,450 over a $100,000 goal, which isn't a spectacular success but it's a success nonetheless.

As a start, they could simply make a new Gurps Lite, which is something we've wanted since the beginning. Something that could appeal to D&D players who are looking for more realism or grittiness. There's definitely a market there, as evidenced by OSR games that try to do exactly that.

Was this pre-2012? It clearly wasn't permanent as Masters's account has no big red banned marker. But there's nothing on the Infractions board.

It may have pissed him off enough to no longer post, as he hasn't posted publicly on TBP since 2009. He did respond to an inquiry on his profile in 2020, but no new posts.

I suppose I could be wrong about all this though.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 20, 2021, 11:04:41 AM
I suppose I could be wrong about all this though.

   The recent database collapse has messed up the search function, so I wouldn't make calls on what's happened on TBP until they announce it's back to normal.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on September 20, 2021, 11:10:30 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 20, 2021, 11:04:41 AM
I suppose I could be wrong about all this though.

   The recent database collapse has messed up the search function, so I wouldn't make calls on what's happened on TBP until they announce it's back to normal.

I completely forgot about that. Very true. I'll go back to look at it in a few days or something.

Quote from: GhostmakerWas this pre-2012? It clearly wasn't permanent as Masters's account has no big red banned marker. But there's nothing on the Infractions board.

It may have pissed him off enough to no longer post, as he hasn't posted publicly on TBP since 2009. He did respond to an inquiry on his profile in 2020, but no new posts.

I suppose I could be wrong about all this though.

April 2021. I will try to find link.

edit: Found it

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/lets-read-gurps-banestorm.877919/page-45

Quote from: Aglondir on September 20, 2021, 12:22:10 PM

Quote from: GhostmakerWas this pre-2012? It clearly wasn't permanent as Masters's account has no big red banned marker. But there's nothing on the Infractions board.

It may have pissed him off enough to no longer post, as he hasn't posted publicly on TBP since 2009. He did respond to an inquiry on his profile in 2020, but no new posts.

I suppose I could be wrong about all this though.

April 2021. I will try to find link.

edit: Found it

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/lets-read-gurps-banestorm.877919/page-45

Huh. Their search function must be completely fucked from that crash. Hitting up his profile for postings shows nada since 2009.

Quote from: David Johansen on September 19, 2021, 11:28:24 PM
For that to happen there would have to be evidence of a surge in GURPS sales and a massive drop in Munchkin sales, and absolutely nothing else in sight.  Even then, they'd probably try to make GURPS 4e go rather than doing a new edition because, if you've got a spike in sales, why would you mess with that?

Correct me if I'm wrong, But I believe you are replying to my statement:
"I think that they just don't have it in them to take a step back, re-evaluate the system from the top down, and then take the plunge with a properly focused and supported game."

If so...

The whole point of taking that step back, re-evaluating the system, then coming out with a properly focused and supported game; is precisely because GURPS sales are flatlining.

Yes it is a risk, but at this point I think Opaopajr is right - SJG is just not gonna do anything that might have an impact on ye 'ol retirement fund.

And quite frankly, given the way they handled a money making IP like Conan in the past; that is the right call for SJG to make.

Quote from: LiferGamer on September 16, 2021, 09:29:56 PM

(snip)

Going the route of more 'Powered by GURPS' could work... but whoever chases or chooses licenses either needs to stop with their pet projects or be given something of a budget.

GURPS The Vorkosigan Saga Sourcebook and Roleplaying Game anyone?  How about Humanx?  Uplift?  New Sun?  Lensman?  (To be fair, that's the ONE I had heard of.)  Horseclans?

(snip )

For the most part, they seem to have licensed stuff no one else wanted, or didn't push hard enough when they had a good one.  (I find the Star Fleet Battles 'timeline' of Prime Directive is FAR more interesting for role-playing.)

(snip)

To be fair the Vorkosigan, Uplift and New Sun series were all very popular and won multiple Nebula, Hugo or World Fantasy awards.  The Humanx series was also popular and written by a top selling SF author.  The GURPS books for these series came out while or shortly after the books were being published.  So looking at it now it may seem odd but at the time they were sound business decisions.  Maybe not top of the line IPs but well know amongst the SF/Fantasy communities of the time.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 23, 2021, 02:12:27 AM
As a start, they could simply make a new Gurps Lite, which is something we've wanted since the beginning. Something that could appeal to D&D players who are looking for more realism or grittiness. There's definitely a market there, as evidenced by OSR games that try to do exactly that.

What? D&D players can't find other RPGs using Google?

Anyway, if GURPS is all that great, GMs should be having no problem finding new players from the D&D crowd.

I generally find it easier to get new players from outside the D&D crowd.

Really?

This is NOT 'NEWS" - they have said for over a decade now, NO FIFTH  EDITION.

Their Fourth Edition works just fine.

- Ed C.

Yeah, but new people discover it from time to time.

I may have commented in this thread before, but...

GURPS does not need a 5th edition.

Maybe a 4.x edition; it does need some fixing, especially in Charisma, Intelligence, as admitted by many fans and creators.

(https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2016/09/gurps-d-part-i-some-quick-thoughts-on.html).

It would benefit from some kind of SRD, IMO.

And a GURPS "medium-lite" would be perfect for me: "bang" skills, maybe change active defenses slightly to make combat faster, maybe fix the critical hit chart or just give players some guidelines on how to use combat options (e.g., if your skill is greater than say, 14, you should take a penalty to bypass your opponent's defense instead), and definitely some quick armor options, making piecemeal armor as an optional rule.

Heck, I might do my own version if they had a SRD.

BTW, GURPS has several AWESOME books on DTRPG. It took them a while to get on DTRPG, and maybe they should do a sale from time to time, but there are some real gems out there, with a remarkably low number of copies sold (probably because fans get them from SJG's site).

Unfortunately for SJG their competitors have equally great and interesting sourcebooks while also being either rules lite or less crunch or complex.

I would like to see an SRD though for some odd reason SJG refuses to create one.

Not to mention Gurps fans

( we want 4E Vehicles for Gurps)

SJG (here have Mars attacks because a handful of hardcore fans want it)

Well if it 'aint broke...

Quote from: Abraxus on May 22, 2022, 12:27:27 PM
Unfortunately for SJG their competitors have equally great and interesting sourcebooks while also being either rules lite or less crunch or complex.

Might be true, but I don't know. I don't remember reading a book like Horror, Low Tech or Thaumatology* for other systems. And some things, like silk armor and obsidian weapons, only seems to make sense in GURPS... But I agree these books with be better with less crunch.

(*Come to think of it, Thaumatology may have inspired the OSR book I published this Friday:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/397412/Alternate-Magic-OSR?src=hottest_small)

EDIT: another issue is that some of the PDFs are remarkably EXPENSIVE. But IMMV.

I've probably mentioned it in this thread earlier, but I've taken a number of runs at writing an alt-GURPS over the years.  The biggest issue is that GURPS players all want different things and in the end it's hard to please a single one, let alone all of them.

Only GURPS is GURPS and GURPS is all the GURPS there will ever be.

For all that I wish they'd put out the damn Vehicles book but I wouldn't suggest it on the SJG forums at this point the GURPS staff are damn prickly about it these days.

      I think if more people would read this (though I think you could have a similar blog from many RPGs, though some exchanges are more GURPS specific)  https://dungeonfantastic.blogspot.com/p/my-df-campaign.html   they would be more willing to give GURPS a try.  I think some of the things people get bogged down with are mook fights and defenses, and health checks.  I long ago decided mooks either all out attack or all out defend or run away, at least in melee.   If they get hit for hp to 0 they are out of the fight (knocked out or play dead).    I think more printed advice along lines like that for GURPS would do them a world of good, making some separation between "named" heros and villains versus the mooks, similar to SW. 

@DJ I'm honestly not bothered at all of the SJG staff are prickly about the Vehicles book.

It's what almost two decades late while they either keep wasting time on IPs like Mars Atracks or Discworld. Then Wonder why both books did poorly.

Besides Dungeon Fantasy they seem to be interested in not giving what many fans want imo. If they want people to stop asking release the dam Vehicles book. If not I don't care if it bothers them.

Yes while they have released some excellent sourcebooks for 4E most who don't want that level of complexity don't care. If their rules lite generic rpg can do it they stick with it,

No, I mostly just mention it because I wouldn't want some poor new poster to ask the question there.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 24, 2021, 12:36:09 PM
GURPS Vehicles is to GURPS as Squats used to be to Warhammer 40000.  It's not happening. 

Silence heretic!!

The Squats will ONE DAY return to save the Imperium!!

:)

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 23, 2021, 06:51:06 PMAll I have seen from the success of current D&D only benefits current D&D. There is no spillover to others in the industry.

The new 5e players are not gamers. They are 5e players.

The reticence I've seen with these young 5e players to try any different RPGs has been surprising considering how the boardgame community has become ADHD with an over-worship of whatever the newest "hot" boardgame release might be.

Unsure how that changes. I wonder how much actual play occurs for those RPGs which have adopted 5e as their core engine.

Quote from: David Johansen on May 22, 2022, 08:34:15 PM
No, I mostly just mention it because I wouldn't want some poor new poster to ask the question there.

To be honest too bad for the SJG Devs. It's not on the members of the forum to worry about hurting the feelings of said devs. Again it's on SHG to to release the book or shut the hell up. It's almost two decades late so I'm not concerned about their feelings at this point. If they cannot or will not deal with that find another line of work.

Quote from: Spinachcat on May 22, 2022, 09:54:31 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 23, 2021, 06:51:06 PMAll I have seen from the success of current D&D only benefits current D&D. There is no spillover to others in the industry.

The new 5e players are not gamers. They are 5e players.

The reticence I've seen with these young 5e players to try any different RPGs has been surprising considering how the boardgame community has become ADHD with an over-worship of whatever the newest "hot" boardgame release might be.

Unsure how that changes. I wonder how much actual play occurs for those RPGs which have adopted 5e as their core engine.

It's nothing new.

D&D has been the go to rpg for many gamers over the decades. From 1E to 5E. It's not something unique with 5E where those who play it are reluctant to try other RPGs. I was one of them myself until I decided to try something else. I was only D&D until I saw the ad for Robotech in a comic way back in the 1980s.

To claim otherwise is engaging in revisionist rpg gaming history in its purist form. 

Quote from: Spinachcat on May 22, 2022, 09:50:01 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 24, 2021, 12:36:09 PM
GURPS Vehicles is to GURPS as Squats used to be to Warhammer 40000.  It's not happening. 

Silence heretic!!

The Squats will ONE DAY return to save the Imperium!!

:)

I'm guessing you were being ironic, but just in case...

So, we're going to get a renamed GURPS Vehicles that's modernized?  I'd be okay with that.

I doubt it; the recent sets of specific vehicles seem to be as close as we will get for the foreseeable future.

I seem to recall adaptions of the Space Ship Design rules to wider contexts to help cover some of this?

If you dig up the right two or three Pyramid articles.  Better than nothing I suppose, but they're really inadequate, especially when it comes to armoured fighting vehiclesn as the damage resistance comes out too low.

Apparently in their report to shareholders for 2021 Gurps was not financially viable as they hoped.

Then again when a company caters only to thee hsrdcore fan base and rely on Muchkin to bring in the money it's to be expected.

Like it or not, kicking and screaming imo the RPGs fan base is not interested as they were in that level of complexity.

As ever, I will point out that GURPS doesn't have to be that complex and while SJG has attempted a number of GURPS Lite based games based on licensed IP none of them have done very well.

To this day I will argue that a generic fantasy supplement for GURPS Lite would do more to promote GURPS than any of their prior efforts.  There are a couple good fan ones but it'd need to be on the SJG site and promoted.  YES promoted, shocking, I know.

Quote from: Abraxus on May 23, 2022, 11:03:06 AM
Apparently in their report to shareholders for 2021 Gurps was not financially viable as they hoped.

Then again when a company caters only to thee hsrdcore fan base and rely on Muchkin to bring in the money it's to be expected.

Like it or not, kicking and screaming imo the RPGs fan base is not interested as they were in that level of complexity.

I just read their latest stakeholder's report:
https://www.sjgames.com/general/stakeholders/
It does feel more negative than previous years, but they're not particularly dumping on GURPS. In fact, it's their third priority after Munchkin and Car Wars, and they're celebrating how many titles they have available in POD (100+).

Of course exactly one GURPS title falls in their top 20 best sellers, and that title barely made it (the 2 Basic Set books are #20 and #21). But that's how it's been for a long time -- 2020 had them at #17 and #32, and 2019 had them at #22 and (not in the top 40).

They definitely haven't managed to capitalize on the surge of interest in RPGs lately, and on that I agree with your reasoning. They're focused on a niche that appeals to their long term fanbase but doesn't have much broader appeal.

I don't know where it stands on the spectrum of commercial success, but I was quite pleased with SJG when they made a Girl Genius game that was stand alone and GURPs powered.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/girlgenius/ (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/girlgenius/)

Quote from: Pat on May 23, 2022, 02:59:34 PM

Quote from: Abraxus on May 23, 2022, 11:03:06 AM
Apparently in their report to shareholders for 2021 Gurps was not financially viable as they hoped.

Then again when a company caters only to thee hsrdcore fan base and rely on Muchkin to bring in the money it's to be expected.

Like it or not, kicking and screaming imo the RPGs fan base is not interested as they were in that level of complexity.

I just read their latest stakeholder's report:
https://www.sjgames.com/general/stakeholders/
It does feel more negative than previous years, but they're not particularly dumping on GURPS. In fact, it's their third priority after Munchkin and Car Wars, and they're celebrating how many titles they have available in POD (100+).

Of course exactly one GURPS title falls in their top 20 best sellers, and that title barely made it (the 2 Basic Set books are #20 and #21). But that's how it's been for a long time -- 2020 had them at #17 and #32, and 2019 had them at #22 and (not in the top 40).

They definitely haven't managed to capitalize on the surge of interest in RPGs lately, and on that I agree with your reasoning. They're focused on a niche that appeals to their long term fanbase but doesn't have much broader appeal.

I don't hate Gurps it just seems like Hero Games that they only want to cater to a very specific fan base which is almost well and good. Except they aint going to be getting much needed new blood in anytime soon.

While I'm glad the Girl genius RPGs for Gurps was released again another very niche product which appeals to a very small segment.

I'm surprised they never tried getting more popular ips. Then again probably to expensive.

Quote from: Abraxus on May 23, 2022, 05:52:45 PM
I'm surprised they never tried getting more popular ips. Then again probably to expensive.

They got Discworld. If managed correctly, and with a system that suited it, that could be huge.

Quote from: Abraxus on May 23, 2022, 05:52:45 PM

Quote from: Pat on May 23, 2022, 02:59:34 PM

Quote from: Abraxus on May 23, 2022, 11:03:06 AM
Apparently in their report to shareholders for 2021 Gurps was not financially viable as they hoped.

Then again when a company caters only to thee hsrdcore fan base and rely on Muchkin to bring in the money it's to be expected.

Like it or not, kicking and screaming imo the RPGs fan base is not interested as they were in that level of complexity.

I just read their latest stakeholder's report:
https://www.sjgames.com/general/stakeholders/
It does feel more negative than previous years, but they're not particularly dumping on GURPS. In fact, it's their third priority after Munchkin and Car Wars, and they're celebrating how many titles they have available in POD (100+).

Of course exactly one GURPS title falls in their top 20 best sellers, and that title barely made it (the 2 Basic Set books are #20 and #21). But that's how it's been for a long time -- 2020 had them at #17 and #32, and 2019 had them at #22 and (not in the top 40).

They definitely haven't managed to capitalize on the surge of interest in RPGs lately, and on that I agree with your reasoning. They're focused on a niche that appeals to their long term fanbase but doesn't have much broader appeal.

I don't hate Gurps it just seems like Hero Games that they only want to cater to a very specific fan base which is almost well and good. Except they aint going to be getting much needed new blood in anytime soon.

While I'm glad the Girl genius RPGs for Gurps was released again another very niche product which appeals to a very small segment.

I'm surprised they never tried getting more popular ips. Then again probably to expensive.

They had Hellboy at one point, right? It's somewhat popular, but I wouldn't put up with GURPS for it. I do remember a lot of Hellboy-ish stuff being put into a BtVS Cinematic Unisystem game and we liked that just fine.

GURPS SUMMARY

Attributes:
Strength Base 10, 10 points per +/-1
Dexterity Base 10, 20 points per +/-1
Intelligence Base 10, 10 points per +/-1
Health Base 10, 10 points per +/-1
Perception Base 10, 5 points per +/-1
Willpower Base 10, 5 points per +/-1

Figured Values:
Base Speed = Dexterity + Health / 4
Light Encumbrance = Strength x Strength / 5

Advantages:
Languages 2 points for broken, 4 points for accented, 6 points for fluent
Reaction Roll 5 points per +/- 1

Disadvantages:
Minor Mental -5 points Resist on 12-
Serious Mental -10 points Resist on 12-

Skills:
1 point for
Climbing DX - 1
Riding DX - 1
First Aid IQ
Stealth DX - 1
Swimming HT
Simple Weapon DX (Shield, Dagger, Gun, Crossbow)
Average Weapon DX -1 (Sword, Axe/Mace, Great Sword, Great Axe/Mace, Bow)
Difficult Weapon DX -2 (Flail)
Thrown Weapon 0
Brawling DX (+1 damage for DX +2)
Karate DX -2 (+1 damage for DX +1, +2 damage for DX +2)
Judo DX -2

unskilled additional - 4
+1 for 2 points
+2 for 4 points
additional +1 for 4 points

Success and Failure:
Roll 3d6 equal to or under skill or attribute
3 automatic critical success
4 automatic success
4 - 6 and <= modified skill -10 critical success
17 automatic failure
18 automatic critical failure

Combat:
In order of basic speed (though around the table and foes act after each PC works just fine for big groups)
Step and Attack may defend
All Out Attack (+4 to hit, 2 attacks, or +2 damage)
Aim (+Weapon's Accuracy to next attack if not disrupted)
All Out Defense (may try two defenses on an attack or +2 to defense)
Move (full move may defend)
Change Position (drop prone, or kneel from prone, or stand from kneel)

Active Defenses
3d6 roll under or equal to
Dodge = Base Speed rounded down - encumbrance level
Parry = 1/2 skill +3
Block = 1/2 shield skill +3 + Defense Bonus
Back Step or drop +3 to Active Defense

Damage
Muscle Powered Weapon Table
Strength 10 Swing 1d, Thrust 1d-2

HP = Strength
Roll Weapon Damage subtract Armour Damage Resistance to get HP Damage
Damage > 1/2 HP roll Health or Stunned and Knocked Down, Limbs Crippled
HP < 4 1/2 Move
HP < 1 Roll HT each round or pass out
HP < HP x - n roll HT or die
HP < HP x -5 just plain dead

So, at the basic level GURPS isn't that complex.  Oh I probably got some niggling detail wrong.  But the devil is in the details.

Quote from: David Johansen on May 23, 2022, 07:16:30 PM
GURPS SUMMARY

Attributes:
Strength Base 10, 10 points per +/-1
Dexterity Base 10, 20 points per +/-1
Intelligence Base 10, 10 points per +/-1
Health Base 10, 10 points per +/-1
Perception Base 10, 5 points per +/-1
Willpower Base 10, 5 points per +/-1

Figured Values:
Base Speed = Dexterity + Health / 4
Light Encumbrance = Strength x Strength / 5

Advantages:
Languages 2 points for broken, 4 points for accented, 6 points for fluent
Reaction Roll 5 points per +/- 1

Disadvantages:
Minor Mental -5 points Resist on 12-
Serious Mental -10 points Resist on 12-

Skills:
1 point for
Climbing DX - 1
Riding DX - 1
First Aid IQ
Stealth DX - 1
Swimming HT
Simple Weapon DX (Shield, Dagger, Gun, Crossbow)
Average Weapon DX -1 (Sword, Axe/Mace, Great Sword, Great Axe/Mace, Bow)
Difficult Weapon DX -2 (Flail)
Thrown Weapon 0
Brawling DX (+1 damage for DX +2)
Karate DX -2 (+1 damage for DX +1, +2 damage for DX +2)
Judo DX -2

unskilled additional - 4
+1 for 2 points
+2 for 4 points
additional +1 for 4 points

Success and Failure:
Roll 3d6 equal to or under skill or attribute
3 automatic critical success
4 automatic success
4 - 6 and <= modified skill -10 critical success
17 automatic failure
18 automatic critical failure

Combat:
In order of basic speed (though around the table and foes act after each PC works just fine for big groups)
Step and Attack may defend
All Out Attack (+4 to hit, 2 attacks, or +2 damage)
Aim (+Weapon's Accuracy to next attack if not disrupted)
All Out Defense (may try two defenses on an attack or +2 to defense)
Move (full move may defend)
Change Position (drop prone, or kneel from prone, or stand from kneel)

Active Defenses
3d6 roll under or equal to
Dodge = Base Speed rounded down - encumbrance level
Parry = 1/2 skill +3
Block = 1/2 shield skill +3 + Defense Bonus
Back Step or drop +3 to Active Defense

Damage
Muscle Powered Weapon Table
Strength 10 Swing 1d, Thrust 1d-2

HP = Strength
Roll Weapon Damage subtract Armour Damage Resistance to get HP Damage
Damage > 1/2 HP roll Health or Stunned and Knocked Down, Limbs Crippled
HP < 4 1/2 Move
HP < 1 Roll HT each round or pass out
HP < HP x - n roll HT or die
HP < HP x -5 just plain dead

So, at the basic level GURPS isn't that complex.  Oh I probably got some niggling detail wrong.  But the devil is in the details.

Yes, the devil is most certainly in the details...And GURPS is the Nine Hells.

Quote from: Abraxus on May 23, 2022, 05:52:45 PM
...
I'm surprised they never tried getting more popular ips. Then again probably to expensive.

They had Conan, one of the RPG hobbies evergreen IPs, and proceeded to go absolutely nowhere with it... (Well TSR first, then SJG...)

The same IP that Mongoose did two editions, and piles of supplements for. (Yes, Mongoose did that.) The same IP that Modiphius uses their 2d20 house system that nobody cares about, yet still sells...

These are the same guys that thought a Girl genius RPG was a good idea.

Of course they had no idea what to do with Conan...

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 23, 2022, 07:29:42 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on May 23, 2022, 07:16:30 PM
GURPS SUMMARY

Attributes:...

*SNIPITY*

So, at the basic level GURPS isn't that complex.  Oh I probably got some niggling detail wrong.  But the devil is in the details.

Yes, the devil is most certainly in the details...And GURPS is the Nine Hells.

I see the issues just in that breakdown. Variable Attribute costs for advancement. Advantage/disadvantage point nonsense. 3 tiers for languages? LOL. variable skill costs as they increase. Barf.

And then just reading GURPs "Lite": Throwing distance and damage tables that use multiplication and division, depending. Wounding Modifiers and
Injury that have you multiplying by 0.5, 1.5, or 2, depending. And of course GURPS "Lite" has fatigue points - one of the most popular RPG mechanics ever, of all time, throughout the history of RPG's...

I mean seriously!? That's the "Lite" version of the system that serves as an introduction for newbies?

Even their "Lite" version is too fiddly. Outside of their dedicated fanbase, everything they do will be DOA.

Like I said earlier in the thread: SJG isn't gonna change a thing. GURPS is going the way of HERO.

Quote from: David Johansen on May 23, 2022, 07:16:30 PM
GURPS SUMMARY

Attributes:
Strength Base 10, 10 points per +/-1
Dexterity Base 10, 20 points per +/-1
Intelligence Base 10, 10 points per +/-1
Health Base 10, 10 points per +/-1
Perception Base 10, 5 points per +/-1
Willpower Base 10, 5 points per +/-1

[...]
Reaction Roll 5 points per +/- 1

So, here is my first fix: Intelligence theoretically affects Perception, Willpower, and Reaction. Your suggestion - consider Int costing 10 points - is better, but now we have attributes costing 5, 10 or 20 points (Dex being the only one that costs 20 points). This is confusing. Would be easier to have eight attributes IMO, each costing 10, separating agility to dexterity.

Or, alternatively, the six stats in D&D. At least they are more balanced (although wisdom meaning perception AND willpower is strange).

Same for skills: with "bang" skills every skill costs the same. Maybe allow some specialization, up to +4, for half the cost.

BTW, GURPS Ultra-Lite is even better than GURPS lite... maybe we should start there...

TBone's thoughts on a new Gurps Lite.

https://www.gamesdiner.com/2017/06/books-we-want-updated-gurps-lite/

Quote from: TBoneLook what 3e did!

No one wants to be compared to the older sibling who did things better. But before brushing off too many suggestions for a revamped LITE with "there's just no space", let's take a look back at what LITE for 3e (October 2001 Edition) accomplished. Along with the same basics found in LITE for 4e, it offers:

More weapons – two full pages of tables! (With javelin! Smallsword and saber! Twice as many bows, plus a prodd! Two flails instead of none! Three polearms and three knives, not one of each! Sling skill and weapons! Baton and light club! Two-handed axe and maul! More pistols, more rifles, and beam weapons! And even rock!)

    A bigger character form
    A full-page sample character (though, yes, it's ol' Dai again...)
    Basics on non-humans and animals
    Stats for 11 riding and draft animals (vs 0 in LITE for 4e)
    A Tech Level table! (Edit: Actually, LITE for 4e has a brief one too; it's tucked into the discussion of Starting Wealth on p18.)
    A short section on jobs

THE GURPS MAGIC SYSTEM! Sure, it's short, and leaves key questions untouched (like what's the range for spells). But you get the core basics plus 14 spells in one and a half pages. (This is a nice tribute to the simplicity of GURPS' default magic system.)

LITE for 3e manages all that in the same 32 pages as LITE for 4e. I'm not quite sure how it achieves this miracle. Some cramped layout at the expense of appearance, perhaps, but overall I'm impressed.

Revamped LITE for 4e, you've got some big (or at least tightly-packed) shoes to fill! I know you can do it...

Quote from: Jaeger on May 23, 2022, 09:40:11 PM

I see the issues just in that breakdown. Variable Attribute costs for advancement. Advantage/disadvantage point nonsense. 3 tiers for languages? LOL. variable skill costs as they increase. Barf.

And then just reading GURPs "Lite": Throwing distance and damage tables that use multiplication and division, depending. Wounding Modifiers and
Injury that have you multiplying by 0.5, 1.5, or 2, depending. And of course GURPS "Lite" has fatigue points - one of the most popular RPG mechanics ever, of all time, throughout the history of RPG's...

I mean seriously!? That's the "Lite" version of the system that serves as an introduction for newbies?

Even their "Lite" version is too fiddly. Outside of their dedicated fanbase, everything they do will be DOA.

Like I said earlier in the thread: SJG isn't gonna change a thing. GURPS is going the way of HERO.

The only GURPS product that I currently own is the Dungeon Fantasy boxed set. I had hoped a limited scope would create a more welcoming experience than wide-open GURPS. Maybe it did...a little, but I didn't find it appealing.

   I typed a few paragraphs about appreciation for Dungeon Fantasy, ideas to use Lite for products, etc... Then I looked at the home page while doing so and saw Girl Genius is a hard back book now...Never mind.  Maybe they just hate making money.

Is there a good GURPS retroclone?

I know there was a Fantasy Trip retroclone, but I don't remember if I played it. I kinda remember it being cool.

My favorite Not-GURPS Fantasy RPG is Warrior, Rogue & Mage
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/82643/Warrior-Rogue--Mage?manufacturers_id=3313 (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/82643/Warrior-Rogue--Mage?manufacturers_id=3313)

Totally free and deserves LOTS more love. I've run some games and it was great at the table if you want something heavier than OSR which I view about the speed and depth of D100 / GURPS Lite / D6 but WR&M has better chargen.

And WR&M has lots of free supplements on DriveThruRPG.

I've fiddled with a GURPS clone a lot over the years.  The problem is that what GURPS really offers is a language for defining and describing characters.  If you rename everything to avoid copyright issues you basically lose that.  Also, if you start to deviate you lose people because GURPS is something different to everyone.  I bet I've got half a dozen versions on my hard drive.  I was working on a simple skill based 3d6 game last fall that basically abandoned the GURPS element to be its own thing.

If you want a more rigorous and structured game that's very much a better GURPS I generally suggest JAGS though CORPS and EABA fit in the same general region and BRTC is really good at technical stuff like guns and vehicles.

But as someone who really feels that we've reached the point where creative GURPS fans would do well to go their own way and create some kind of an ultimate wiki clone community, I don't think it's actually viable to do so.  Everyone will just get on their own personal hobby horse and ride off in different directions.

I would have doubts about using GURPS for a fantasy setting. It would probably get too complex. I do, however, like GURPS for semi-hard sci-fi in which everyone plays a human being. That way, you don't have to worry about magic/powers and can dispense with a lot of the advantages and disadvantages. I detest the current trend of using the D&D 5e system for all kinds of different settings. It doesn't even work with traditional D&D, let alone with Sword & Sorcery or Tolkienesque fantasy. Things get even worse if you try to transport it to a sci-fi/cyberpunk world.

Here's a rationalized take on GURPS, I put it in the game design forum rather than derailing this thread.  It wouldn't be compatible with GURPS as it stands and would probably alienate 99% of the existing fanbase.

https://www.therpgsite.com/design-development-and-gameplay/rationalizing-gurps/new/#new

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 23, 2021, 02:50:02 AM

Imho, what they need is to take the engine and publish focused games, start with whatever they think it does best, and make a full game, in a single book,

Agreed.
Independent stand-alone books for a Genre that has all you need to play in it. Theme the book strongly for the genre. Generic doesn't sell well.

Quote from: thornad on May 25, 2022, 04:25:08 PM
Agreed.
Independent stand-alone books for a Genre that has all you need to play in it. Theme the book strongly for the genre. Generic doesn't sell well.

I might be interested in a game using Gurps if they do it that way.  It would have to be well written and easy to understand.

I tried to like Gurps.  Got all of the 4th edition books but because they were so poorly laid out and the system as presented was over-complicated I sold them all.

If there is a setting using the system that is well laid out I would give it another try

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 10:11:45 AM
Masters got banned for defending the use of the word "slave" and implying that it's a stupid thing to freak out about.

anyhow...

If the plan is to just keep the core in print, and do everything else on-line and I was doing a 4.5 edition the pages wasted on iconic characters and Infinite Worlds would be replaced with the new advantages from powers, more spells, more animals, more martial arts techniques, and more fantasy templates.  I'd probably try to find a good hyper realistic artist to do very evocative but grounded illustrations.

I'd want to make the core stand alone as much as possible.

Now, I know that screws with page references and the cross referencing is one of the reasons there will never be a 5th edition.  But screw it, if ever thing else is pdf we should be able to update all that with a decently smart search and replace function.

I'll always want a GURPS starter with 1/32 action figures in the box and a big modular, build your own science fiction vehicle kit.  But I'd want a space opera starter rather than a fantasy one.

So he got banned for telling the truth. In other news a piece of paper ignited at 451 degrees f, a man fell in water and got wet,  fox news lied about everything and several billion farts were let around the world.

As a serious question, does anyone think gurps would have done better if it had a more serious name?

Quote from: Battlemaster on June 20, 2022, 06:29:27 PM
As a serious question, does anyone think gurps would have done better if it had a more serious name?

Nah. Geeks are generally fine with silly names. But GURPS might have done better if they stuck to more of a Car Wars level of detail, instead of going all-in on the vehicle and gun wankery. But I don't think that was ever in the cards.

Quote from: Battlemaster on June 20, 2022, 06:29:27 PM
As a serious question, does anyone think gurps would have done better if it had a more serious name?

Generally Useless Role-Playing System for 30 years counts for something maybe. People that watch CNN seem to adore it.

Oh, you mean people who have an interest in the world outside gaming?

Quote from: Battlemaster on June 20, 2022, 10:45:29 PM
Oh, you mean people who have an interest in the world outside gaming?

Yes. People that can't role-play.

  GURPS is neither the favorite of CNN watchers or people who "cannot role-play"....people who watch CNN can certainly role play that much I am 100 percent certain of.  I do get where people are put off by what is a steep learning curve and investment in time early on to learn the system.  Add in the fact you can walk into game stores all over the country (and if there are many like the ones near me, with 100 people playing various games at tables on a busy night) and you probably will not even spot a person reading a GURPS book, much less anyone playing it.  The easy way to learn any game or hook an interest is someone playing it and you watching or joining in a group.  GURPS has zero presence any where I have ever been in a game store in the past 18 years I have taken an interest (I started up with it at the 4th edition printing, knew about it before and bought 4th edition for Conan games). 

  I do not know what it is like for most people running the game, but I know in the case of my group (we play a few games/rules --Savage worlds, D&D, DCC, Mutant Epoch and GURPS) the players have by far the weakest grasp of the rules and how their characters can operate in GURPS  than any other system, despite having a play time advantage of 4 to 1 over any other ruleset.  They have great fun while playing...but zero interest in reading even a little about how to best play their characters (options in combat and so forth can be extensive, but I mean even the most basic of things here) because the books are simply not engaging in the least.  I have tech cert exam prep books that are far more engaging than the GURPS core rule books.  The art is bad.  The layout is pretty bad.  The examples of game play are non existent.  The lore/iconic characters are bad.   

   The rules are IMO....very very good.  One second rounds annoy the hell out of me, but I do think they are overall fantastic and I can run anything seamlessly.  I think it does slow down a bit in melee fights with 5+ players and lots of enemies (IME most games do, but GURPS more so with the active defenses).  The learning of the system is HEAVILY front loaded for a new GM, making a new character without a template is damn near impossible for a new player unless they want to spend a day on doing it, and the core rules have no "hooks" to draw a curious potential player or GM in to want to read and learn the game. 

  At this point I think SJG is happy to provide a bit of digital content and the occasional printed book to the faithful (and the people who seem to like GURPS *really* like it) and make his real money from Munchkin.   I guess if they had a middle man (like the movie office space) to do some work between the engineers and the customers it could improve on it's "curb appeal", but right now it is like trying to sell a haunted house.

Quote from: Pat on June 20, 2022, 07:01:06 PM
Nah. Geeks are generally fine with silly names. But GURPS might have done better if they stuck to more of a Car Wars level of detail, instead of going all-in on the vehicle and gun wankery. But I don't think that was ever in the cards.

Car Wars eh?  Tenth of a second phases?  Two dozen characters and half a dozen vehicles per player? I'm down with that.

Quote from: David Johansen on June 21, 2022, 09:46:20 AM

Quote from: Pat on June 20, 2022, 07:01:06 PM
Nah. Geeks are generally fine with silly names. But GURPS might have done better if they stuck to more of a Car Wars level of detail, instead of going all-in on the vehicle and gun wankery. But I don't think that was ever in the cards.

Car Wars eh?  Tenth of a second phases?  Two dozen characters and half a dozen vehicles per player? I'm down with that.

Entire game can fit in a little click box. Entire character can fit on a single half-sheet of paper, including art.

Well, that's interesting:

https://bundleofholding.com/presents/GURPS4Essentials

SJG has always been very controlling about their IP, and as a result were very late in moving to DTRPG. They've also been highly resistant to sales. But now they're allowing BoH to sell their core and tech books in bundles that, while still pricey by BoH standards, are far cheaper than buying the books individually.

It's probably the smartest thing they've done to promote GURPS in twenty years.

Quote from: David Johansen on June 21, 2022, 09:46:20 AM

Quote from: Pat on June 20, 2022, 07:01:06 PM
Nah. Geeks are generally fine with silly names. But GURPS might have done better if they stuck to more of a Car Wars level of detail, instead of going all-in on the vehicle and gun wankery. But I don't think that was ever in the cards.

Car Wars eh?  Tenth of a second phases?  Two dozen characters and half a dozen vehicles per player? I'm down with that.

It was always one vehicle per player in our games. All the killer pedestrians were run by the GM.

Yes. There will be a 5th edition. It is nearly done. They've been working on it for a while.

Quote from: Thor's Nads on February 13, 2023, 03:53:02 AM
Yes. There will be a 5th edition. It is nearly done. They've been working on it for a while.

Source?

I hope SJG can change their minds on that.

Partnerships for stretch goals:

Setting books:
Marc Miller
James M Ward
Sandy Petersen
Kevin Siembieda

Adventures by:
OSE, LotFP, RPGPundit, you already have that list...

Let the wokesters think what they want, the waves would be titanic.

The last GURPS book I picked up was the Phil Folio Girl Genius RPG that uses GURPS 4e.  I have the 4e books but haven't read them in quite a while.  My last big GURPS game was 3e using Bloodtypes to have PC vampires that weren't stuck in the WoD cosmology.  I was a fan of the library of 3e source books.  It was cool to have a source book for a genre/theme for games that you wanted to play vs have to make everything from scratch.  I figure we may see more "Powered by GURPS 4e" releases before we see a 5e.