The Zombie Thread

[jhkim]

And what stops the zombies tearing the walls straight down again? Bear in mind that you are dealing with creatures who don't really give two shits how much they damage themselves getting to you.

In general, a solid brick or cinder block wall cannot be knocked down just by disorganized pounding at it with bare hands.

I don't think being willing to break their bones in pounding makes a significant difference. I picture it this way: imagine a big crowd of people trying to knock down a wall with their bare hands; then imagine that same crown who have fleshy implements to batter at the wall with (i.e. a bunch of severed limbs, say). I don't think that using fleshy implements is a major advantage that would make tearing down the wall possible.

Even more important than the limitations of bare-handed pounding, though, is that zombies are mindless. They don't use tools, they don't dig, and they barely climb. Even trivial obstacles could prevent them from getting decent footing and/or leverage to pound at a wall.

Minor spoilers for the Walking Dead:

Spoiler

In Season Three of The Walking Dead, there was a loner who had set up an obstacle course that was trivial to walk through, but zombies inevitably failed and impaled themselves on spears and such.

I thought it was a great example of what could be done with a little effort. And indeed, it was portrayed that he had no trouble dealing with the zombies. What was infuriating was that this was portrayed as the actions of a crazed fanatic, rather than sensible precautions. Neither the prison nor Woodbury set up anything like this.

[Bedrockbrendan]

To be fair, early Romero's work was rather specific at pointing that humanity was still the worst enemy.

His later work too. In land of the dead, the zombies almost become the good guys by the end of the film.

[Warthur]

In general, a solid brick or cinder block wall cannot be knocked down just by disorganized pounding at it with bare hands.

True, but at some point your wall is going to need access points.

Or you have the zombiepile scenario (which would also work with the obstacle course) - once the first few ranks of zombies get caught on the traps or crushed by the press of the horde behind them, the rear ranks can climb over them and get to your roof or over your wall.

Even if your hideout is a concrete block with no entries or exits, the zombies will still create problems. What happens when the press of zombies trying to get in is so intense that you end up with little air getting in, beyond the reeking stench of rotting flesh?

[Ravenswing]

And what stops the zombies tearing the walls straight down again? Bear in mind that you are dealing with creatures who don't really give two shits how much they damage themselves getting to you.

What stops the zombies from tearing the walls down?  

Errr ... that it's a ZOMBIE movie, not a superhero movie, and zombies don't have the strength of Hercules?

True, but at some point your wall is going to need access points.

Because those same non-Herculean strength zombies have any easier time punching through steel doors -- probably reinforced against zombie attack, too -- than through 8" thick cinder block-and-fill walls?

Or you have the zombiepile scenario (which would also work with the obstacle course) - once the first few ranks of zombies get caught on the traps or crushed by the press of the horde behind them, the rear ranks can climb over them and get to your roof or over your wall.

As jhkim correctly states, the vast majority of zombies are mindless.  If I've got (say) my walled hundred-acre compound, the zombies aren't going to pigpile on to make an undead pyramid ... and enough zombies to pigpile the whole perimeter?  That'd take (very roughly) about 80-90 thousand zombies to pull off.  I'm just not going to establish my Post Apoc Rural Haven in anywhere remotely close to that density.

Even if your hideout is a concrete block with no entries or exits, the zombies will still create problems. What happens when the press of zombies trying to get in is so intense that you end up with little air getting in, beyond the reeking stench of rotting flesh?

I conclude that the GM is one of those asshat Killer GM types, airily concede that my character gets eaten, and goes on to invite the players into the new game I'm running.

Sorry, but the people who come up with "So you think you have a solution, eh?  Well, what about this?  Huh?  Huh?" strings of questions aren't really looking for answers.  They're looking to win a debate, and as often as otherwise declare victory when the fed-up "opponents" roll their eyes and walk away.  

[Omega]

One thing that most zombie movies never get around to is that well... They are eventually finite. There are only so many intact bodies to make zombies from. And after the first outbreak new ones arent getting made much at all.

That is still lots of zombies. But they will likely be concentrated in certain areas.

Really depends on the nature of the zombies. Supernatural risen dead? Or just infected people? And how long are these things mobile? If they are infected humans then they should have a finite un-life-span unless the virus running them is photosynthetic or something weird.

[jhkim]

True, but at some point your wall is going to need access points.

Or you have the zombiepile scenario (which would also work with the obstacle course) - once the first few ranks of zombies get caught on the traps or crushed by the press of the horde behind them, the rear ranks can climb over them and get to your roof or over your wall.

Even if your hideout is a concrete block with no entries or exits, the zombies will still create problems. What happens when the press of zombies trying to get in is so intense that you end up with little air getting in, beyond the reeking stench of rotting flesh?

I haven't seen the World War Z movie, but this sounds like what I saw in the previews. Those zombies seemed both acting in organized groups as well as being supernaturally powerful. I was talking about the zombies of Romero films or The Walking Dead, which are mindless human bodies whose only power is being hard to kill. They are below most mammalian intelligence, certainly far less capable than predators.

1) Without minds or organization, zombies won't all converge on a spot just to get over the wall, unless there is a big beacon drawing them to all try for a particular spot on top of the wall. Lacking such a beacon, they'll wander individually.

2) Even if there was such a beacon that they were all trying for, human bodies won't naturally form into stable vertical structures by disorganized scrabbling. The ones in the back who climb on top of the ones in front of them would just push those ones back and fall.

One thing that most zombie movies never get around to is that well... They are eventually finite. There are only so many intact bodies to make zombies from. And after the first outbreak new ones arent getting made much at all.

That is still lots of zombies. But they will likely be concentrated in certain areas.

Really depends on the nature of the zombies. Supernatural risen dead? Or just infected people? And how long are these things mobile? If they are infected humans then they should have a finite un-life-span unless the virus running them is photosynthetic or something weird.

Completely agreed. The U.S. has an average population density of 34 people per square kilometer, varying widely from cities to deep country. If characters are in the country and can clear several dozen zombies a week with traps and murder holes, then they should rapidly clear out their whole region.

[The Traveller]

The U.S. has an average population density of 34 people per square kilometer, varying widely from cities to deep country. If characters are in the country and can clear several dozen zombies a week with traps and murder holes, then they should rapidly clear out their whole region.

That should be zombie power number 2: brainhounds. Zombies will converge on the nearest concentration of humans they heavily outnumber no matter how far away they are, unless there's an intervening body of water or other obstruction, in which case they just spread out more or less evenly in the local area.

[Omega]

That should be zombie power number 2: brainhounds. Zombies will converge on the nearest concentration of humans they heavily outnumber no matter how far away they are, unless there's an intervening body of water or other obstruction, in which case they just spread out more or less evenly in the local area.

That seems to be a common movie power of zombies. "Sense People"

In 28 days Later the comics for that reveal that the infected key off sight and smell. If they smell you they start towards you and if they see movement they move towards it too. Which can set up a domino effect.

[Ronin]

That should be zombie power number 2: brainhounds. Zombies will converge on the nearest concentration of humans they heavily outnumber no matter how far away they are, unless there's an intervening body of water or other obstruction, in which case they just spread out more or less evenly in the local area.

That seems to be a common movie power of zombies. "Sense People"

In 28 days Later the comics for that reveal that the infected key off sight and smell. If they smell you they start towards you and if they see movement they move towards it too. Which can set up a domino effect.

AFMBE has different levels and special senses depending on the zombie. Two that fit this bill is Life Sense, and Scent Tracking.

[dragoner]

Crowds can push down walls, look what the English soccer hooligans did to the Italians.

[trekkiebob]

Going back to the stupid actions comments, the thing that a lot of zombie games seem to miss is the psychological impact of seeing most of your family and friends get sick/die/get eaten and get back up. Hell, I've survived a close encounter with a bushfire and I periodically have nightmares about it and am still phobic of open flames. Another point is the constant necessity to always, ALWAYS be aware of your surroundings and in constant danger. History shows that people in that sort of environment (WWI, WWII) tend to show diminishing efficiency, after 60 days in combat on the Western Front in WWI and WWII most units were combat ineffective, if not from casualties then definitely from combat fatigue.

Looked at through the lens of stress related anxiety disorders AND the need to be constantly on the ball and on your guard means that eventually you're going to slip and that slip could be the one that costs you and yours their lives.

TrekkieBOB
Peace, Love and Numbats eating nuts.

[jhkim]

Crowds can push down walls, look what the English soccer hooligans did to the Italians.

Sure - I didn't mean to imply that no wall could ever be pushed down by a crowd. Most walls will eventually collapse on their own over sufficient time. The Heysel Stadium wall that collapsed under soccer crowds was 55 years old, poorly maintained, and literally crumbling apart ( source ).

What I was arguing against was the idea that fortifications are useless and that nowhere was safe because any wall could be broken down by a press of crowds. That is patently false.

Looked at through the lens of stress related anxiety disorders AND the need to be constantly on the ball and on your guard means that eventually you're going to slip and that slip could be the one that costs you and yours their lives.

The latter is based on the idea that characters are constantly living on the edge because zombies can tear through anything and thus nowhere is safe. That might be true for zombies in some worlds - but classic zombies, like in the Romero films and The Walking Dead, don't have superhuman strength or senses.

There are people who work with dangerous animals and/or dangerous materials all the time - but they have several layers of safety procedures so that a single slip-up doesn't kill. For example, operating a murder hole doesn't require constant vigilance, just effort. If you miss, you just try again. My feeling about the zombie genre is that in an RPG, I'd be encouraged to set up good safety procedures that make the game feel more like engineering and less like adventure.

Stress is a vicious cycle. People who foolishly fail to take precautions go through more stress, and then make more stupid mistakes.

So... I think stress disorders are interesting - especially for a one-shot just after the fall. If implemented in a campaign game, though, I'd be worried that pushing on them would mean that characters are encouraged even more to play it safe rather than act adventurous.

[trekkiebob]

There are people who work with dangerous animals and/or dangerous materials all the time - but they have several layers of safety procedures so that a single slip-up doesn't kill. For example, operating a murder hole doesn't require constant vigilance, just effort. If you miss, you just try again. My feeling about the zombie genre is that in an RPG, I'd be encouraged to set up good safety procedures that make the game feel more like engineering and less like adventure.

Stress is a vicious cycle. People who foolishly fail to take precautions go through more stress, and then make more stupid mistakes.

So... I think stress disorders are interesting - especially for a one-shot just after the fall. If implemented in a campaign game, though, I'd be worried that pushing on them would mean that characters are encouraged even more to play it safe rather than act adventurous.

Re: the dangerous/materials animals. Yes, there are people with such jobs, I know a few professionally, but a key difference is that you're not working with them ALL the time. I've used radio-isotopes extensively at work and while you take extreme precautions before, during and after using them, once I went home for the day, I could put my feet up and relax.

In a zombie apocalypse, particularly one like the Walking Dead where anyone who dies comes back, you can never truly be safe from zombies unless you're locked in a largish cage by yourself. Mmmm, those prison cells seem pretty good if they'd only have closed the door.

But here was what I mean, these people have been put through the ringer for more than a year at that point, didn't think to or want to close their cell doors and BOOM! one dead flu patient spawned all the those lovely walkers.

TrekkieBOB
Peace, Love and the Easter Platypus.

[jhkim]

In a zombie apocalypse, particularly one like the Walking Dead where anyone who dies comes back, you can never truly be safe from zombies unless you're locked in a largish cage by yourself. Mmmm, those prison cells seem pretty good if they'd only have closed the door.

But here was what I mean, these people have been put through the ringer for more than a year at that point, didn't think to or want to close their cell doors and BOOM! one dead flu patient spawned all the those lovely walkers.

I haven't watched the current season (S4) of the Walking Dead, but the basis of this is that they have been "put through the wringer" - which in my opinion is primarily because they didn't take even obvious precautions for dealing with the dead. Avoiding spoilers of The Walking Dead:

Spoiler

I don't know about the specific case of flu patients, but anyone who is in danger of dying can be cuffed or tied to keep them from wandering. For example, they did this when Hershel was badly wounded. It seems to me that the chance of someone spontaneously dying with no warning, no chance to cry out, and no one watching while within the safe space is pretty small.

Even ignoring my prior suggestion of murder holes or shark cages, there are a large number of simple safeguards that should be taken. Many of these have even been demonstrated as effective in the show, but they were never re-used. Examples:

1) They continually failed to take the obvious safeguard of wearing protective clothing against bites. This was demonstrated effective by Milton, but no one else used it.

2) In S1, they demonstrated that being covered in zombie gore is a successful deterrent. This was again shown in S3 when someone was covered accidentally. Yet they never attempted to use this - such as an added safeguard when venturing out or going for supplies.

3) Despite constantly expressing concern over the sound of gunshots attracting more zombies, the adults never used homemade silencers. The kid Carl had one, so clearly it was possible, but they failed to use it.

4) Use of obstacles and/or traps was shown to be effective by Morgan in S3, but no one else tried setting up such to help defend their main base.

As the more general point: the general ethos of many zombie films is that scientists and engineers are useless or worse, and what is really needed is manly tough guys with guns who are willing to shoot their friends. However, logically the nature of a mindless threat calls for good logic and engineered solutions.

[Nexus]

My wife is a huge fan of zombie stuff and she wants me to run a zombie apocalypse game.

I like AFMBE well enough but I'm seriously considering Call of Cthulhu (the system, sans Mythos stuff, of course) for the job. I like the idea of the Sanity mechanic interacting with the visceral grand guignol of the zombie genre.

I wouldn't use anything supernatural, though. I'd treat zombies as living people with a highly contagious, agression-inducing rabies-like viral encephalitis. So these zombies will have a heartbeat and die from the same injuries that would kill a normal man or woman, only they'd be extraordinarily resistant to pain and harder to stop than their uninfected counterparts.

I'd also give zombies an "expiration date" -- after a few weeks the encephalitis starts eating the lower nerve centers of the brain and the zombie becomes a vegetable, then dies; not unlike rabies.

To spice it up I might throw in a terrorist group or government conspiracy that broke the thing out of the bioweapons lab.

A little like 28 Days Later? That could be pretty fun