Quote from: deadDMwalking;701273I don't see much point in bashing a campaign setting.  Unlike monsters or classes that are assumed to be generally transportable between settings, the setting itself is easily taken or left.  Personally, I dislike Forgotten Realms, but that's because it seems with the high number of ultra-high-powered characters running around, there really never seems to be a reason for the PCs to exist.  If what they were doing was really important, Elminster would show up and take over for them.  

But I don't play in Forgotten Realms for that reason.  As a setting, though, I'm glad it exists.  They spend a lot of time and effort on developing aspects of the setting.  I could grab a race or culture if I wanted to and port it into my setting pretty easily.  In that sense, most campaign settings have a lot of useful pieces that can be taken away, have the serial numbers filed off, and dropped somewhere else.  

I don't buy a lot of setting specific material, but I do think that having lots of setting material is a really good thing.  

The very best settings aren't compatible with each other.  They have major differences that actually make the game play differently.  For example, having a different basic magic system.  Darksun achieves that.  Obviously, I wouldn't expect a setting that does that to appeal to all gamers because its something like learning a new game (and not that I necessarily care much for Darksun).  I just like it when a setting is willing to say 'this is how this works in this world' and actually take some creative liberties.

I largely agree. The settings I liked, I used, but it was always nice knowing other settings were available and occassionally learning more about or trying them. If a setting didn't work for me, I felt no fury over its existence.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;701273I don't see much point in bashing a campaign setting.  Unlike monsters or classes that are assumed to be generally transportable between settings, the setting itself is easily taken or left.  Personally, I dislike Forgotten Realms, but that's because it seems with the high number of ultra-high-powered characters running around, there really never seems to be a reason for the PCs to exist.  If what they were doing was really important, Elminster would show up and take over for them.  

But I don't play in Forgotten Realms for that reason.  As a setting, though, I'm glad it exists.  They spend a lot of time and effort on developing aspects of the setting.  I could grab a race or culture if I wanted to and port it into my setting pretty easily.  In that sense, most campaign settings have a lot of useful pieces that can be taken away, have the serial numbers filed off, and dropped somewhere else.  

I don't buy a lot of setting specific material, but I do think that having lots of setting material is a really good thing.  

The very best settings aren't compatible with each other.  They have major differences that actually make the game play differently.  For example, having a different basic magic system.  Darksun achieves that.  Obviously, I wouldn't expect a setting that does that to appeal to all gamers because its something like learning a new game (and not that I necessarily care much for Darksun).  I just like it when a setting is willing to say 'this is how this works in this world' and actually take some creative liberties.

I've tried alot of settings. Some clicked, some did not. And for others the ones that did not for me, did for them and vis-a-vis.

I enjoy seeing others views on what worked or did not and sometimes the reasons why. I like Dragonlance as a setting but can totally see why someone else might dislike aspects or the whole setting. For some odd reason Kender seems to be the make or break point for players. And as said, personally for me the one-dimensional nature just does not appeal.

The good ol' D&D half orc has more character dimension potential than a Kender ever will. The Half orc could be about anything they wanted to be. (within class restrictions) But the Kender was always going to be this fearless grab everything klepto.

Same for Ravenloft. The bleak hopeless underpinnings just never grabbed me as a player. But I liked the lean towards NPC interaction over hack-n-slash. and the were-raven race was neet.

Fucking Planescape. If it weren't bad enough that it's full of weird shit and you can't easily play a normal human in some planes, then there's the really annoying "argot" in which loads of stuff is written.

Personally I like the settings that add something or twist the D&D formula - Planescape (philosophy, theology, surrealism, urban adventure), Ravenloft (horror/Gothic monsters and atmosphere), Spelljammer (spaceships), Dark Sun (post-apocalyptic themes), Eberron (magic-as-technology), Birthright (domain management), Tékumel (science fantasy).  Even though all of these settings might not be to every individual player's tastes, they're ambitious and attempt something, and provide a different way of playing D&D, a unique experience.  There's a "point" to their existence, even if they're not universally enjoyed.

In contrast, the settings that fall flat for me are the ones that don't really do anything interesting, that take no chances and fail to innovate or provide any kind of original "take" on D&D - Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and most of Mystara being the blandest.  Type IV's "Points of Light" setting (Nentir Vale or whatever?) exemplifies this trend to banal conformity.  I tend to give Blackmoor and Greyhawk more of a pass because they really were there "first" and form the "default" D&D experience.  But I've never found a really compelling reason why adventuring in the Realms or on Krynn is all that distinct or wildly preferable to playing in Greyhawk or just in the implied, informal, quasi-medieval setting of generic D&D.

I suppose I like settings that are unique, that mix up expectations and play with tropes and genres, rather than settings that feel like "more of the same," or a variation on the standard D&D theme.

EDIT: I should add that I think it's perfectly possible to run an enjoyable game using the Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance or similarly generic settings, but I'd contend that such settings don't add that much in and of themselves - it's up to the DM to make them fun or not.  In contrast, I could actually see the "interesting" settings being less fun for a group that wasn't onboard with their themes (like, if you find philosophical debate boring, surreal weirdness alienating, and prefer dungeon crawls to urban adventures you won't enjoy Planescape much; likewise, if you don't enjoy horror at all, Ravenloft is going to be a hard sell, and if post-apocalyptic settings don't turn your crank Dark Sun isn't going to work for you).  I think that in the unique and quirky settings, though, the setting matters more.  I like it when the setting matters, so I prefer the weird/unique/original settings.

Quote from: Steerpike;701305Personally I like the settings that add something or twist the D&D formula - Planescape (philosophy, theology, surrealism, urban adventure), Ravenloft (horror/Gothic monsters and atmosphere), Spelljammer (spaceships), Dark Sun (post-apocalyptic themes), Eberron (magic-as-technology), Birthright (domain management), Tékumel (science fantasy).  Even though all of these settings might not be to every individual player's tastes, they're ambitious and attempt something, and provide a different way of playing D&D, a unique experience.  There's a "point" to their existence, even if they're not universally enjoyed.

In contrast, the settings that fall flat for me are the ones that don't really do anything interesting, that take no chances and fail to innovate or provide any kind of original "take" on D&D - Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and most of Mystara being the blandest.  Type IV's "Points of Light" setting (Nentir Vale or whatever?) exemplifies this trend to banal conformity.  I tend to give Blackmoor and Greyhawk more of a pass because they really were there "first" and form the "default" D&D experience.  But I've never found a really compelling reason why adventuring in the Realms or on Krynn is all that distinct or wildly preferable to playing in Greyhawk or just in the implied, informal, quasi-medieval setting of generic D&D.

I suppose I like settings that are unique, that mix up expectations and play with tropes and genres, rather than settings that feel like "more of the same," or a variation on the standard D&D theme.

Same here. I appreciated Planescape especially for its experimental nature, using techniques such as clique association (the approach OWoD applied most effectively and I believe was a large contributor to its success, though not its massive success which came from it happening to catch the zeitgeist of the 90s); the use of argot and slang to encourage the change of mindset for the residents of the setting (not 100% successful and not 100% popular, but I appreciated the effort. It was encouraging Roleplay at a time in the hobby narrative was being pushed hard); the stunningly unique DiTerlizzi art (again, not everyone's cup of tea, of course, but my taste buds found it delicious); even the ill-fated Travellers guide to the Planes on cd ( I own it. It's goofy yeah, but goofy in the same way as Erol Otus illustrations), wherein again I appreciated what they were trying to do, and if for even only 10% of the setting's audience it succeeded, I'd say its worth it.

Also, Planescape was playing with proto steampunk tropes long before it was cool. It was years ahead of even 3rd edition GURPs Steampunk.

I can see people not liking it. The more original a setting, the smaller an audience. And most of the audience Planescape appealed to were not people otherwise likely to be playing AD&D by that point. AD&D was still big dog, but White Wolf, FASA, Chaosium, Palladium, SJG and WEG were all still in thier prime. Planescape was obviously an attempt to attract new audiences (as was Dark Sun and, I guess Spelljammer, though I never really got a handle on what audience Spelljammer was aimed at). But Planescape didn't adopt the storytelling credo of White Wolf nor the crunchy bits orgy of Rifts, it was hyper-focused on role-playing. And I liked that.

Games haven't experimented much in that area since, except for a brief period at the birth of Indy online RPGs (Edwards on one end and retroclones on the other seems to have killed that brief trend for the time being).

Quote from: Kiero;701302Fucking Planescape. If it weren't bad enough that it's full of weird shit and you can't easily play a normal human in some planes, then there's the really annoying "argot" in which loads of stuff is written.

Yeah. The thieves cant+exaggerated cockney sort of dialect. Its really prevalent in the audio disc tour. Players Guide to the Outlands. Track 3, Automita. Though the campaign books are probably better, or worse examples. aheh.

It wasnt so much it was badly done... as it felt sometimes out of place. Its like stepping out of a D&D campaign and into Marry Poppins, Bedknobs & Broomsticks, and Oliver Twist... with demons...

That was one small annoyance. Demons everywhere. Really. Its supposed to be a all encompassing setting but you couldnt get four paces without spotting another demon/fiend/batazau/whatever.

Then again the setting was a sort of "fuck you" to the lobby groups who forced the removal of demons and devils from the game.

Quote from: TristramEvans;701311Also, Planescape was playing with proto steampunk tropes long before it was cool. It was years ahead of even 3rd edition GURPs Steampunk.

There is allmost zero steampunk to Planescape. The modrons and Automota were clockwork robots. Red Steel tried it too with the clockwork PC race.
 Nothing steampunk to them. Dragonlance on the other hand. Yes. Though mostly isolated to the Tinker Gnomes. But still it was an early forays.

I'd like to see more clockwork themed settings personally.
But getting tired of "steampunk" being applied to everything with a gear or a airship in it. Unless I missed something along the way, Mystarra is not a steampunk setting just because it has airships.

Quote from: Omega;701316There is allmost zero steampunk to Planescape. The modrons and Automota were clockwork robots. Red Steel tried it too with the clockwork PC race.
 Nothing steampunk to them. Dragonlance on the other hand. Yes. Though mostly isolated to the Tinker Gnomes. But still it was an early forays.

I'd like to see more clockwork themed settings personally.
But getting tired of "steampunk" being applied to everything with a gear or a airship in it. Unless I missed something along the way, Mystarra is not a steampunk setting just because it has airships.

Planescape was proto steampunk in its aesthetics. I believe someone earlier mentioned it was like D&D crossed with Dickens (they made the comparison in antagonism, but for me that's a selling point). Steampunk not meaning " a bunch of stuff with gears", that interpretation comes later, rather science fiction adopting a Victorian aesthetic.

Quote from: TristramEvans;701320Planescape was proto steampunk in its aesthetics. I believe someone earlier mentioned it was like D&D crossed with Dickens (they made the comparison in antagonism, but for me that's a selling point). Steampunk not meaning " a bunch of stuff with gears", that interpretation comes later, rather science fiction adopting a Victorian aesthetic.

Victorian or Dickensian does not  = Steampunk.
But yes. Planescape has a definite Dickensian feel to it whenever someone is speaking in the argot. And Sigil might as well be Dickensian London with demons for some of its depictions and descriptions.

Perhaps the problem is that it was a little overused. It feels like it pervades everything at times. Which it actually doesnt. But the dialect gets used near everywhere. I was starting to expect the demons and devils to start using it.

For others it worked fine.

Perhaps it is not so much that any setting is inherintly bad as it is that a setting does not live up to its potential, or the players expectations?

Or the setting is good. but there is that one darn thorn on the rose that keeps jabbing you?

Or because it was never completed. It started off neet. But then... what? Promised expansions never came? Areas left out of the core become gaping holes you either patch yourself, or skirt around?

Or... perhaps worst of all... The setting was perfectly fine. But the designers or company wont stop screwing with it.

Quote from: OmegaBut the dialect gets used near everywhere.

This is true in the books - but in actual play I've found it hard to get players to use the slang consistently.  I run a regular TSR-era Planescape game and while I use the cant for some NPCs and provide players with a lexicon, the actual slang used is light-to-minimal.

Quote from: Steerpike;701326This is true in the books - but in actual play I've found it hard to get players to use the slang consistently.  I run a regular TSR-era Planescape game and while I use the cant for some NPCs and provide players with a lexicon, the actual slang used is light-to-minimal.

I've found the same bit it doesn't bother me. I use it for NPCs a lot of players find it distracting to think of what to say in character and then translate it into argot and I think it's better to just let Roleplay flow naturally. After a while they'd start using berk of a few other random terms, and I thought this would be pretty normal for a new character first getting acclimated to a new culture anyways.

Quote from: Steerpike;701326This is true in the books - but in actual play I've found it hard to get players to use the slang consistently.  I run a regular TSR-era Planescape game and while I use the cant for some NPCs and provide players with a lexicon, the actual slang used is light-to-minimal.

I suspect that was oft the case. Especially since there was not a comprehensive lexicon to really get into. You had a dozen or so words and some Dickensian speak. And players are notoriously hard to get to use variant languages. And TSR did put out one or two language articles over the years.

Quote from: TristramEvans;701340After a while they'd start using berk of a few other random terms, and I thought this would be pretty normal for a new character first getting acclimated to a new culture anyways.

That sounds quite a bit more natural for visiting PCs. Little harder if you allowed any native planar PCs though. Though of course not everyone used the slang so even there you could have a planar PC who has never been exposed to that and gradually picking it up.

That puts the onus of use on the DM and what they are comfortable applying or not.

I can't stand anything -punk, that includes steampunk, so it's probably no surprise I hated Planescape, then.