The Wisdom of Gary Gygax: Guidelines for Game Designers

James McMurray · February 06, 2007, 12:01:26 PM

Quote from: RPGPunditJudging by the Forge's pathetic sales records, I'd have to say no.

RPGPundit

No, they aren't being coerced? So no, the game designers aren't forcing their philosophies?

blakkie · February 06, 2007, 12:02:10 PM

Quote from: RPGPunditOh, I see. As usual your one-track mind is worried that I'm insulting Nobilis here.

Don't worry, I am.

RPGPundit

Er, wouldn't that be instead his "correct assessment of your one-track mind"? :rolleyes:

The Yann Waters · February 06, 2007, 12:03:33 PM

Quote from: RPGPunditIt removes the element of risk that often acts as a motivator to relying upon roleplaying; and encourages people to rely on accountancy and rules/points-manipulation instead.

I don't see that, sorry to say. The amount of points that a player is willing to spend only determines the scale of what will be feasible, the uppermost limits of what the character can actually achieve, while the baseline abilities augmented by the points function no differently from the stats in any other RPG. The only distinction between (let's say) "I roll a d10 and add my Sneak skill" and "I check my Stealth attribute and add three skill points", followed in both cases by "Is that score higher than the guard's Perception?", is the understandable lack of random elements in the diceless example. Neither of those is less conductive to roleplaying than the other, and neither involves less risk.

blakkie · February 06, 2007, 12:05:14 PM

QuoteTake the swinetacular My Life with Master. It, in no shape or form, resembles any of these games. Neither does the swinetastic game, Nobilis. They are games, and players may even take on a role, but they are not RPGs. No more than the TSR game Alpha Dawn was a real RPG, or the MB Heroquest boardgame was, or any of the Murder Mystery type games are.

Or Amber?

You don't realize you sound like some grizzled old-foggie complaining about that new fangled jazz not being "real music"?

The Yann Waters · February 06, 2007, 12:10:56 PM

Quote from: jgantsTake the swinetacular My Life with Master. It, in no shape or form, resembles any of these games. Neither does the swinetastic game, Nobilis. They are games, and players may even take on a role, but they are not RPGs.

Now there's an interesting take on the matter... Would you mind naming just one feature of Nobilis which in your opinion disqualifies it as an RPG?

jrients · February 06, 2007, 12:14:00 PM

Seriously, jgants, if you've got a non-arbitrary taxonomy for RPGs I'd like to hear it. I'm perfectly willing to say that Nobilis is just as much an RPG as Dawn Patrol, but I don't see how either of them misses the boat completely.

James McMurray · February 06, 2007, 12:14:05 PM

Quote from: GrimGentNow there's an interesting take on the matter... Would you mind naming just one feature of Nobilis which in your opinion disqualifies it as an RPG?

He doesn't like it?

The Yann Waters · February 06, 2007, 12:19:35 PM

Quote from: James McMurrayHe doesn't like it?

Or it's diceless, or there's not enough combat in the game, or the book is too heavy... But I'd be interested in hearing an actual logical explanation.

David R · February 06, 2007, 12:19:54 PM

Quote from: GrimGentNow there's an interesting take on the matter... Would you mind naming just one feature of Nobilis which in your opinion disqualifies it as an RPG?

It's a thematic game :evillaugh:

Regards,
David R

Ian Absentia · February 06, 2007, 12:21:05 PM

Quote from: jgantsD&D invented the RPG, with other founding fathers like Runequest and Traveller helping to define it. The tradition continued with a whole host of games in the 80's.

And it stopped there, damn it! And there hasn't been any "good music" written since Gershwin and Tommy Dorsey.

QuoteSomething that in no way resembles any of these games is clearly not a RPG.

Okay, now that's just cute. Disingenuous, but cute.

!i!

blakkie · February 06, 2007, 12:28:04 PM

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAnd it stopped there, damn it! And there hasn't been any "good music" written since Gershwin and Tommy Dorsey.

Gershwin was Beethoven's Bitch! All that hopping around on the piano keys? Fuck, that wasn't music. More like rats let loose in a concert hall. Tommy Dorsey? Name one symphony that he wrote!

Anything worth doing is worth overdoing. - Russ Potapinski

jgants · February 06, 2007, 12:45:45 PM

Quote from: GrimGentNow there's an interesting take on the matter... Would you mind naming just one feature of Nobilis which in your opinion disqualifies it as an RPG?

How about "all of it"?

I mean, you aren't even playing a person - you're playing a force or concept of the world. "I'm GrimGent, a mercenary fighter from Vlargg" is pretty far from "I'm Lost Virginity" or "I'm Disappointment" or whatever.

Plus, there's no real tasks/challenges - it's a resource management game. You may as well be playing contact bridge: "I am North. I will use my Ace of Diamonds to win this challenge". "Aha. I, West, shall thwart your attempt by using my Three of Trump".

jrients · February 06, 2007, 12:48:41 PM

The Nobilis have personalities, goals, desires, and behavior beyond their cosmic assignment. PC Nobles are assumed to be formerly human.

jgants · February 06, 2007, 12:53:47 PM

Quote from: jrientsSeriously, jgants, if you've got a non-arbitrary taxonomy for RPGs I'd like to hear it. I'm perfectly willing to say that Nobilis is just as much an RPG as Dawn Patrol, but I don't see how either of them misses the boat completely.

Aren't all taxonomies somewhat arbitrary? Besides, how does one go about codifying them with regards to artistic works?

Put it this way - I know classical music when I hear it. I know rap when I hear it. But I don't have a set of rules to tell me why - I just know.

Or TV shows - everyone who watches them (or even sees a commercial) knows Two and a Half Men is meant to be a comedy, CSI is a crime procedural, and ER is a drama. But can Joe Blow off the street explain why - I doubt it. That doesn't mean he doesn't know a comedy or a drama when he sees one.

James McMurray · February 06, 2007, 12:54:13 PM

Quote from: jgantsPlus, there's no real tasks/challenges - it's a resource management game. You may as well be playing contact bridge: "I am North. I will use my Ace of Diamonds to win this challenge". "Aha. I, West, shall thwart your attempt by using my Three of Trump".

Resource management doesn't remove challenges, it reshapes them. In the example you gave North challenged West and was slapped down. Later on though, he may be able to successfully challenge West because that three of trumps is gone.

It's kinda like how a D&D character may challenge a goblin and lose some hit points and spell slots. He wins, but the next goblin might kill him because his resources are low.