Hello Everybody. This one is going to be really basic. I just want to gush a little bit about The Window. I have not been in the hobby a super long time. My friends introduced me to TTRPG's with [brace yourself] D&D 4e in 2013. Back then, I didn't know anything, and I went along with it. It worked okay, I supposed. But it was awfully complicated, even for my taste back then. I started perusing the internet for alternatives, particularly rules-light systems. I discovered The Window by Scott Lininger before or after Risus by S. John Ross; I don't remember which was first. I have and still do enjoy both games. But, The Window, despite having a much smaller user base than Risus, is far better suited for serious mood campaigns.
I have a fairly severe bias toward loving and using mainly rules-light systems. Since discovering The Window, it has often been my default system for introducing people to TTRPG's. I just does so little to get in your way. Gameplay is fast and smooth, and lets you focus on developing a memorable story. So, just thought I would give The Window a shoutout. I am very grateful to Scott Lininger for his work on The Window. Maybe if enough of us pester him, he might consider making a little money off of materials for his marvelous system. If not, we should archive it, datahoard it, whatever. I want to see the system gain users. If Mr. Lininger reads this, thank you, Sir, for making this system available to us. I hope you find some time to promote the system further. Anyway, here are the links.
The Website:
http://www.mimgames.com/window/
The English download:
http://www.mimgames.com/window/downloads/WindowRules.pdf
Let Scott know how great The Window is:
https://twitter.com/scottlininger
https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottlininger
Christ in leather chaps, no.
Lol who put you up to this?
I remember The Window, and not for positive reasons. It managed to combine a derivative little nothing system with an incredible degree of hubris and self-congratulation, when it came out more than 20 years ago. I don't imagine it's gotten any better.
What is it derivative of?
It was one of about a zillion free internet ultra-lite games from the period, with overlapping features. Find an archive of 90s-era internet RPGs (this was before PDFs, so they were all TXT files), and you'll see a lot of similarities. I don't remember most of their names, because it's been a long time and they're mostly forgettable.
Edit: Incidentally, if you like the game, that's fine. Enjoy it, and don't let me stop you. I never saw any value in the system, and was turned off by the tone, but that's my personal impression.
If you're interested in context, the 90s saw a huge profusion of game distributed via Usenet, FTP, or crude websites. Most were just ASCII text files, a few used basic html. There were some crunchy games, and a lot of AD&D derivatives, but the decade started with some high profile mainstream rules light games like Amber and Over the Edge, and they inspired a lot of people to try their hand at their own little games. There was a lot of discussion of minimalist approaches in the newsgroups. The Window was a late entrant.
Interesting, thanks for the history, Pat. I do definitely like The Window. But, what would be your, say, top three or so recommendations for this category of system? Maybe there is something better. As I said, I am always looking for a better default. From my experience, Risus seemed a bit unnecessarily silly for a lot of campaigns.
Wasn't "Fate" the winner from this time period?
FUDGE is a great, rules-lite-ish game with a solid foundation. FATE is derived from FUDGE, with more of an emphasis on narrative play. I prefer FUDGE, tbh. 10th Anniversary edition hardcover is $35 new, and has everything you'll need for just about any genre of RP. You can also download the main rules for free.
https://fudgerpg.com/shop/fudge-books/fudge-10th-anniversary-edition-detail.html
https://fudgerpg.com/goodies/fudge-files/all-fudge-files-index.html
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 23, 2021, 06:08:55 PM
FUDGE is a great, rules-lite-ish game with a solid foundation. FATE is derived from FUDGE, with more of an emphasis on narrative play. I prefer FUDGE, tbh. 10th Anniversary edition hardcover is $35 new, and has everything you'll need for just about any genre of RP. You can also download the main rules for free.
https://fudgerpg.com/shop/fudge-books/fudge-10th-anniversary-edition-detail.html
https://fudgerpg.com/goodies/fudge-files/all-fudge-files-index.html
Thank you for the recommendation. I had heard of FUDGE and FATE, but they seemed to be a bit odd with the unique dice. And as for FATE, I saw Evil Hate from a certain list from a couple months back, and I have to say, the name is fitting. Maybe I should take a second look at FUDGE, though. I understand it's pretty modular, so there are probably some pretty light builds of it available somewhere. Anyone have any favorite FUDGE builds?
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 23, 2021, 08:13:29 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 23, 2021, 06:08:55 PM
FUDGE is a great, rules-lite-ish game with a solid foundation. FATE is derived from FUDGE, with more of an emphasis on narrative play. I prefer FUDGE, tbh. 10th Anniversary edition hardcover is $35 new, and has everything you'll need for just about any genre of RP. You can also download the main rules for free.
https://fudgerpg.com/shop/fudge-books/fudge-10th-anniversary-edition-detail.html
https://fudgerpg.com/goodies/fudge-files/all-fudge-files-index.html
Thank you for the recommendation. I had heard of FUDGE and FATE, but they seemed to be a bit odd with the unique dice. And as for FATE, I saw Evil Hate from a certain list from a couple months back, and I have to say, the name is fitting. Maybe I should take a second look at FUDGE, though. I understand it's pretty modular, so there are probably some pretty light builds of it available somewhere. Anyone have any favorite FUDGE builds?
Blood In Space is sci-fi horror. Now Playing is for "any genre" TV roleplaying, so it has pretty broad application. The Unexplained is a ghost hunting show type game that spun off from Now Playing. Terra Incognita is Victorian/steampunk type stuff (light on the steampunk elements, IIRC). the 10th Anniversary edition of FUDGE is VERY modular, and I can't imagine you'd have a hard time creating whatever you like, if none of the above options suit you. And, there are probably more, but those are just the FUDGE games I know off the top of my head.
As for the dice, they're fun and yield a consistent set of probabilities. It's a neat system, you don't realize how neat untio you see it in play.
Holy Earth and sea, I just discovered the existence of Fudge in a Nutshell. I think we have a new contender, Lads. Thanks, Tubesock Army!
I had fun playing in an online FUDGE campaign in the Space: Above & Beyond setting, back in the '90s. IME it's a nice little minimalist system for 'not D&D, not Storygame' play; I'd definitely recommend trying it out.
The pretentiousness of the Window made my eyes glaze over.
Mechanically? This looks like a very bad rendition of Savage Worlds.
Just pick up Savage Worlds, it's worked out all the issues you'll run into with the Window without *any* of the pretentious shit layered on top. It looks like they ripped off Savage Worlds and raised the TN to 6 just justify using the d20 - which is silly (because now d4 is not baseline for anything, it's sub-standard.)
Do yourself a favor and go full Savage Worlds. More filling. Less bullshit. More mechanically sound. More flexible. More scalable. etc. etc.
I'll second (or third or fourth) Fudge.
Quote from: tenbones on November 24, 2021, 11:22:10 AM
It looks like they ripped off Savage Worlds and raised the TN to 6 just justify using the d20 - which is silly (because now d4 is not baseline for anything, it's sub-standard.)
The Window pre-dates Savage Worlds.
Quote from: Pat on November 24, 2021, 12:29:15 PM
I'll second (or third or fourth) Fudge.
Quote from: tenbones on November 24, 2021, 11:22:10 AM
It looks like they ripped off Savage Worlds and raised the TN to 6 just justify using the d20 - which is silly (because now d4 is not baseline for anything, it's sub-standard.)
The Window pre-dates Savage Worlds.
Yep. I know. I'm just looking at the link provided and I assumed (perhaps incorrectly?) that they updated it? They certainly should have given the huge gap in time since its inception.
Edit: I should say I have no problem with the system per se. Fudge itself is the DNA for a lot of this stuff - and ones subjective tastes can vary from the different flavors. Case in point, I very much like Fudge, FATE... not as much. I think this iteration of the mechanics in The Window are obviously missing things that could make it a lot better. So much so, I'd just ditch it for a system that addresses those "missing things". But again, that's just my opinion.
Quote from: tenbones on November 24, 2021, 01:24:53 PM
Yep. I know. I'm just looking at the link provided and I assumed (perhaps incorrectly?) that they updated it? They certainly should have given the huge gap in time since its inception.
I haven't looked at The Window in two decades, and I'm fuzzy on the specifics. But the version I remember from late 90s had the rungs.
I looked around a little, and I can find reviews of Windows 2.0 from 1998. There are links in those reviews, that connect to the same webpage that RulesLiteOSRpls did in the first post. The current version on that webpage is Windows Second Edition, and according to the properties, the PDF was created in 1998.
I don't think it's changed.
Quote from: Pat on November 24, 2021, 12:29:15 PM
I'll second (or third or fourth) Fudge.
Quote from: tenbones on November 24, 2021, 11:22:10 AM
It looks like they ripped off Savage Worlds and raised the TN to 6 just justify using the d20 - which is silly (because now d4 is not baseline for anything, it's sub-standard.)
The Window pre-dates Savage Worlds.
Thanks, Pat. I am currently working on my own FUDGE build.
First Precept:
"Everything about a Window character is described with adjectives rather than numbers."
Oh, hm, interesting, yes.
Every description of the character has a number next to it. ?????
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 24, 2021, 12:34:47 AM
Holy Earth and sea, I just discovered the existence of Fudge in a Nutshell. I think we have a new contender, Lads. Thanks, Tubesock Army!
You might also like Fudge in 1 Page:
https://fudge.ouvaton.org/index-e.html
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 24, 2021, 06:11:17 PM
Thanks, Pat. I am currently working on my own FUDGE build.
I find the difficult parts to a Fudge build are:
Creating the attributes: Fudge is a bit dodgy on what atts do. They cost 3x as much as skills (in the objective system) so it's important to know what exactly you want your atts to do when you make your build. The value of skills like Stealth and Melee Weapons are fairly obvious, but the value of a "Dexterity" attribute is more nebulous. It can do a lot, or it can do next to nothing.
Creating a magic system: I have yet to find a Fudge magic system I like. The sample one (in the 1995 version/SRD) has some good ideas, but it seems idiosyncratic and focused on a specific type of campaign. The sample Psionic system actually makes for a better magic system, in my opinion. The Gramarye, by Carl D. Cravens, is an excellent Noun + verb system, but... it's a Noun + Verb system. Fantasy Fudge has some great thematic elements, but it uses Five Point Fudge, which kills it for me.
One thing that really helped me with my Fudge builds (and grasping Fudge in general) were the sample characters in section 6.3 of the 1995 edition/SRD.
Good luck!
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 24, 2021, 12:34:47 AM
Holy Earth and sea, I just discovered the existence of Fudge in a Nutshell. I think we have a new contender, Lads. Thanks, Tubesock Army!
You bet, hope it works out for you.
Speaking of weird 90s RPGs, what was that one everyone was playing in the old AOL chatrooms. Chatrooms, heh, that's a memory. Wasn't it called Raiden or something? I remember that everyone was trying to recruit people into their guilds (whatever those were) even in completely unrelated chats. I even remember someone trying to explain the rules to me when I was in a martial arts/fitness chatroom. I think it involved d20s, but I don't really remember.
A popular martial arts/fighting game from the 1990s was Thrash. It was a little after the turn of the millennium, but Final Stand was very different take on the same genre.
octaNe has a great setting, basically Six String Samurai the RPG.
Powergame was an interesting distillation of super hero power tiers to just 6 levels.
Forgotten Futures is another with a great setting, a loving take on alt-historical steampunk.
Heavy Ordnance is a great little game about schoolchildren blowing up their teachers with heavy weapons.
Is FUDGE actually fun to play? I never see anyone play it.
We played a lot of Fudge for a couple years. The iteration of Spirit of the Century was a helpful "kit" example with loads of modifications and advice from the mechanical framework of FUDGE. IMO the shift to FATE messed up a lot of what we liked in the raw system... (it sort of, well, pigeon holed stuff, though Strands of Fate seemed to push things back in the FUDGE direction). I think the new Princess Bride RPG is a FUDGE game. I haven't got it yet...
I played a lot of Fudge, years ago. It works pretty well, but it's less a game than a framework for a game. It's really just a mechanic, and a set of trait levels. There isn't even a set of basic, universal traits or skills. To play it, you have to comfortable making those up on your own. So at the very least, the GM has to be a bit of a tinkerer. I found it very good for pickup games, for games with new players, and for players who didn't really care much about mechanics. The trait levels in particular are pretty intuitive. And even though I haven't played it in quite a while, the principles behind it have helped inform how I play other games.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on November 29, 2021, 09:29:25 PM
Is FUDGE actually fun to play? I never see anyone play it.
Yes? Maybe? No? Like any system, it is good for some things and not so good with others, and it's largely a matter of taste.
You might like Fudge if:
* You're looking for something rules-lite. Off the top of my head, there are four mechanics in Fudge: Basic rolls, Opposed rolls, Damage rolls, and Fudge Points. I might have missed some, but the point is this is not a game where you need to stop the game and turn to page X to see how something works.
* You're looking for something that focuses on characters and story. Fudge games will probably feel more like a World of Darkness game and less like a D&D game. I find it best for genres where there's not an whole lot of crunchy mechanical bits, but games where there are rich settings. Middle Earth and Serenity would work well with Fudge.
* You like the dice. Part of the appeal of Fudge are the dice, which generate a bell curve between -4 and +4, heavily-weighted on the center. So if your character is good at something, when they roll the dice they will probably get a good result.
* You like to tinker with rules, and you want to learn how RPGs work. Fudge doesn't really work "out of the box." Part of the fun is making your own build.
You won't like Fudge if:
* You enjoy the meta-game of planning out the perfect character build from level 1 to 20, consulting char-op sites, picking the prefect combos of feats and spells.
* You are looking for crunchy tactical options. Or you like accumulating treasure.
* You hate the dice. Due to the bell-curve, some players complain "Why am I even bothering to roll dice?"
* You hate granular games, where the difference between ranks can be 10% rather than 1%.
* You don't want to build the game before you play it.
The critical flaw with Fudge is option-itis. Here's how initiative works:
Quote from: Fudge SRDGaining initiative is an Opposed action. If the characters don't have an Initiative attribute or skill— such as Reflexes or Speed— simply use Opposed Situational rolls. A gift such as Combat Reflexes can grant a +1 to initiative. Surprise may grant a bonus to the roll, or give automatic initiative. Initiative can be rolled once for each battle or once each round. Perhaps a character could trade skill for initiative: attack hastily (+1 to initiative that round) but be slightly off balance because of it (-1 to attack and defend that round).
There are at least 6 different decisions the GM has to make in that one paragraph alone. Now imagine that for every element of Fudge. I hate FATE (and that's a separate post) but part of the reason FATE succeeded is that it managed to build a straightforward Fudge build that you could actually play without building first.
So is it fun? I think so. But I also think OSR games and Hero System are fun.