Forked from the Generic RPG thread...

The advent of PDFs, piracy and Amazon are taking a toll on the hobby's retailers. Technology advances could make it even more difficult. I'm sure Kickstarter isn't helping either.

Quote from: David Johansen;827855... I've heard, "well I'd like to buy the book but I can't afford it and I already downloaded it," all too often when it comes to rpgs, including around half a dozen GURPS fans. I know I'm not the only retailer who's tired of hearing how would be customers downloaded free copies of everything I have on the shelf. Especially not when they justify it economically while waving around their brand new tablet.

...while looking somewhat apprehensively at the progress of 3d printing.

Retail is getting tough. I don't know how to compete with Amazon, Kickstarter, OBS and pirates. The world is changing, and unless we can figure out how to make a retail location more enticing, it's going to become even tougher for store owners to run a business. Some thoughts;

• I think magic tournaments do well. Not sure how Warmachine or Warhammer tournaments do (the one I saw at NeonCon a few years back was packed). It seems that these kinds of things have entry fees, and that could only help.


• Maybe if some kind of tournament model could be utilized for RPGs? Say you have a "dungeon crawl" where the person who kills the most monsters and treasures wins. You could have 1st through 3rd place prizes. Give away gift certificates! They get a nice little bump AND it encourages them to come back and buy more stuff.


• Then you can offer a regular discount to complete with online sales. That 20% off plus no shipping could go a LONG way to convincing people to drop a dime. Maybe?


• I think a snack bar and playing area are vital to the modern game store model. Margins on food are good. If you are willing to teach games, then I think you are providing a service no online retailer could match. Also, meetup groups and family board game nights. You have to get people in the store and keep them there to play (and buy) games.


• I think it's becoming more prudent to build relationships with small publishers and see if you can't get retailer discounts on products, even via Kickstarter. I know Olympia Cards and Comics does this; there are piles of small press and Kickstarter RPG products on the shelves.


• I also notice they have novelty toys and collectibles. I wonder if diversifying into a "nerd store paradise" model would be more profitable?


• What about building custom kiosks where customers can buy things. A custom web page hooked up to affiliate links via Amazon and OBS? When players are taking breaks they can sit down and "shop online". The retailer gets a kickback from the affiliate sales.

What about it? What things could make retail more viable?

I don't know what exact thing to do- I'm not in retail and don't have the knowledge, but....

You'd have to play to the strengths that you have and discover new strengths that are possible.

Having products for sale is one thing, and there's limited room.  Maybe have a core of items, and then a bunch of printed free quickstarts to hand out?

Aside from tables to game at, and food & refreshments, aren't a lot more people using things like Roll20 to play online?  Maybe have a few computers with accounts set up so people can play?  Maybe that one's a dud, I don't know.

I like your prize idea.  At one of my hunting clubs, I used to run a fun shoot once a month- just informal trap shooting to keep loose and ready for the season.  I did little things like giveaway cheap knives to those shooters who got top scores for that day.  The knives were cheap junk that couldn't cut a thing, but people like winning stuff and took them happily.  Hell, go to a craft store and make a blue ribbon for them:)

The only thing that they can offer at this point that you can't get online is the face to face social aspect of the hobby, and perhaps instant gratification for a physical item.

Likewise, they could be good for a second-hand market type of thing. Around me, bookstores are disappearing constantly, but the used book stores still seem to get a lot of customers.

Can't speak for other locations but the games stores in my area always seem to be full of stinky guys blocking the aisles and tables and putting down various games, and employees (and owners) too busy chatting with aforementioned stinky guys to bother actually helping a customer find something, answer a question about a product, or even ring up a sale.  I have literally, out of frustration, snapped a photo of what I was going to buy and then put it down and walked out to order online.  

So my experience has been retailers bitch and moan about online competition while simultaneously offering nothing in the way of expertise, helpfulness, or atmosphere to make up for their higher prices and smaller variety of product when compared to the online competition.  

My answer, then, is CUSTOMER SERVICE IS WHAT MAKES SOMEONE BUY AT A STORE TODAY THE SAME PRODUCT THEY COULD HAVE HAD DELIVERED AT A LOWER PRICE TOMORROW.

Quote from: trechriron;827925

• Then you can offer a regular discount to complete with online sales. That 20% off plus no shipping could go a LONG way to convincing people to drop a dime. Maybe?

Also goes a long ways towards bankrupting you, talked about this with someone I knew who used to stock gaming stuff. He gave up after the investment was simply not worth the return. You either need rock bottom over head, massive sales or be selling through all of your inventory in short order to pull it off. Places like amazon can manage the first two with sheer economy of scale, a local place doesn't have a prayer.

That said, part of me does wonder if you could get people to pretty much pay to be part of professionally run campaigns in a nice space. Seems like a bit of a perversion of the whole hobby aspect though.

trechriron- you've mentioned you've had a bunch of experience gming- what about having a gm workshop for up and coming gms?  Maybe other sorts of workshops too- get others you know and have them teach others what they've learned.  Tips and tricks, maybe how to create an adventure or a world.  Stuff like that.  Reading and learning about stuff online is great- a truly wonderful resource.  Sometimes though, having that person right in front of you teaching is 1000 times better.  Just an idea.

First make your case about why we should care about saving brick and mortar stores.

Most of the local game stores are distant and of little or no use to me. I don't play games in stores and I'm not all that interested in listening to the resident mouth-breather tell me all about his 'build'.
It's not in their interest to carry the products I'd actually be interested in buying.
In terms of interests, cost and convenience I'd much rather shop online.

My idea for bookstores was that they make the place an event destination unto itself, coffee and pie and lots of book-related entertainments... author readings and bookclubs and discussion groups. Have single reader copies out on the shelves with a service that will jiffy-print any book you'd like to take home with you.

Quote from: Simlasa;827967First make your case about why we should care about saving brick and mortar stores.

Most of the local game stores are distant and of little or no use to me. I don't play games in stores and I'm not all that interested in listening to the resident mouth-breather tell me all about his 'build'.
It's not in their interest to carry the products I'd actually be interested in buying.
In terms of interests, cost and convenience I'd much rather shop online.

My idea for bookstores was that they make the place an event destination unto itself, coffee and pie and lots of book-related entertainments... author readings and bookclubs and discussion groups. Have single reader copies out on the shelves with a service that will jiffy-print any book you'd like to take home with you.

I can't honestly make a great case for the need of retail locations in the hobby. I have seen some done well, I have seen others that suck. I am fortunate to currently live in a very hobby-friendly area. Seattle has several gaming clubs and plenty of stores-done-well.

I LOVE the idea of a jiffy-print. I mean, that's actually brilliant. Buy your PDFs from my via my affiliate site and I print your book for 50% off my retail printing price. Or something (just spit-balling numbers, you would want to build a plan and set an acceptable price point.)

Quote from: trechriron;827925

• I think magic tournaments do well. Not sure how Warmachine or Warhammer tournaments do (the one I saw at NeonCon a few years back was packed). It seems that these kinds of things have entry fees, and that could only help.

There's three game stores locally (in a town of under 90k people), and as I understand it MtG and MtG tournaments form a very large part of their revenue. This isn't surprising when you consider that MtG is one of Hasbro's top brands.

One store in particular, which seems to be doing well, almost always has something going on. More often than not it's a MtG event, but they also have X-Wing, Warmachine and other tournaments, board game nights, etc. There's something going on almost every evening.

Quote from: Matt;827957My answer, then, is CUSTOMER SERVICE IS WHAT MAKES SOMEONE BUY AT A STORE TODAY THE SAME PRODUCT THEY COULD HAVE HAD DELIVERED AT A LOWER PRICE TOMORROW.

The aforementioned store also has excellent service. I walk in there and almost immediately someone professional and friendly comes up to me and asks if I need help finding anything. You know, like in any other well run retail business.

Quote from: MrHurst;827960Also goes a long ways towards bankrupting you, talked about this with someone I knew who used to stock gaming stuff. He gave up after the investment was simply not worth the return. You either need rock bottom over head, massive sales or be selling through all of your inventory in short order to pull it off. Places like amazon can manage the first two with sheer economy of scale, a local place doesn't have a prayer.

I think it depends on the location of the local place. Meeplemart in Toronto offers very nice discounts. I think it varies, but a quick spot-check shows about 20-30%. Given that they just had a big expansion, I assume they're doing well.

One thing they do that's smart, in addition to the discounts, is have a well-done on-line presence. I've seen stores which think they can just dump their raw inventory text files, stick those files on a website, have people call their orders in, and call that a web presence in 2015. Of course, most stores don't even have that much.

Quote from: That Guy;827984I think it depends on the location of the local place. Meeplemart in Toronto offers very nice discounts. I think it varies, but a quick spot-check shows about 20-30%. Given that they just had a big expansion, I assume they're doing well.

Locality will certainly help, around here is certainly no Toronto. We may have attempted to ram Toronto though, don't remember if the all the ferry accidents were down here or not. The problem is figuring out if you're going to have the sales to really move product. One question though, are those discounts just on things that gather dust on the shelf or does it include things like card packs and those clixs boosters?

The store closest to me also has a big focus on MTG... secondarily on 40K and (I think) Warmachine. From what I've seen those events pack the store on weekends.

RPGs don't really lend themselves to that sort of thing, IMO. I mean, most of the time I don't want to play competitively and I don't want to play with a random PUG. I want to play in a quiet place without a lot of distractions.
Rather than actual games maybe there is some other sort of RPG-related event a store could put on that would get me in and buying stuff... folks teaching new systems (more like a GM class than an actual game session) or meetup groups for GMs to discuss game stuff... classes on map-making or prop-construction or how to create atmosphere... that's the sort of stuff I might be inclined to attend, even pay for. (I'm thinking of Michael's with their little classrooms and various crafty seminars they run).

The question you actually want to ask is: Why do we want retail game stores to stick around?

If you can figure out the answer to that question, then you can figure out what the games stores should be focusing on.

"Selling books", it should be noted, isn't the answer.

Beyond that, I'm absolutely no help because my answer to that particular question is, "Pretty much nothing." Pretty much the only reason I ever went to a game store was to buy games. The online experience for buying games is superior in pretty much every possible way, so I just don't go to game stores any more.

Busy on a trip right now.  

1) one needs the knowledge and guidance of the shopkeepers to matter.  In the world of retail, only showrooms that require that are succeeding.

2) Accent the social aspect.  Brick and mortar showrooms that offer group events, introductions, creative help, certifications, etc, can supercede the online.

3) Hope to god that ridiculous removal of taxes on stuff bought online goes away.  Rarely have I seen a law more designed to destroy local businesses.

Quote from: LordVreeg;828012Busy on a trip right now.  

1) one needs the knowledge and guidance of the shopkeepers to matter.  In the world of retail, only showrooms that require that are succeeding.

2) Accent the social aspect.  Brick and mortar showrooms that offer group events, introductions, creative help, certifications, etc, can supercede the online.

3) Hope to god that ridiculous removal of taxes on stuff bought online goes away.  Rarely have I seen a law more designed to destroy local businesses.

These are great points. Check out Black Diamond Games website, the owner hosts a blog about the trials and tribulations as a FLGS owner. It's been food for thought as I settle into my local FLGS (not all that far away, either).

I like to think -- besides the obvious professionalisms of customer service, product knowledge & relative neutrality, etc. -- the biggest draw is the social aspect. Thankfully CA has already implemented their sales tax law onto online sales, so that factor has been mitigated.

However the social aspect is a big one. It's like the local nerd bar, where instead of beer, peanuts, darts 'n dice, & karaoke, it is soda, chips, dice 'n minis, & gamer movies on repeat. Throw in a few tournaments and organized play and you got a regular scene "where everybody knows your name," like that sitcom bar Cheers.

As for events and clinics, sure why not? The House that Mac built (Apple) regularly holds Genius Bar events to familiarize with product and brand their products as its own community. Depends on the owner, but many often delegate event coordination duties for different products and upcoming convention presence, so I'm sure they're open to listening to a professional as well as excited fan.

Quote from: LordVreeg;8280123) Hope to god that ridiculous removal of taxes on stuff bought online goes away.  Rarely have I seen a law more designed to destroy local businesses.

Your numbers 1 and 2 made me think you were rational. Then I came to your wacky liberal-think number 3.

Yeah, I definitely need to pay more taxes so I can have an even lower quality of life for my kids. We definitely need to subsidize failing businesses by making their competitors less attractive and making the consumer pay extra if he chooses a competitor. Now pull the other one.