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Author Topic: The Traveller Aid Society on OBS (DriveThruRPG and RPGNow)  (Read 1510 times)

estar

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Looks like the Third Imperium and the entire Traveller line will have a third party content program.

http://support.drivethrurpg.com/hc/en-us/articles/208597136-Mongoose-The-Travellers-Aid-Society-TAS-

jeff37923

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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2016, 04:00:21 PM »
And HOLY SHIT is the fight on about that......

Tucked away in the TAS agreement is the legal part which tells you that all copyright to the work submitted goes straight to Mongoose Publishing. So if you have an already established setting like Orbital or Clement Sector, Mongoose will own it if you post it via TAS. I have not seen one 3PP for Traveller want to touch that yet because they do not want to lose their IP.

Tod13

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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2016, 04:41:41 PM »
Quote from: jeff37923;895449
And HOLY SHIT is the fight on about that......

Tucked away in the TAS agreement is the legal part which tells you that all copyright to the work submitted goes straight to Mongoose Publishing. So if you have an already established setting like Orbital or Clement Sector, Mongoose will own it if you post it via TAS. I have not seen one 3PP for Traveller want to touch that yet because they do not want to lose their IP.

Everything I needed to know about Mongoose, I learned from their worthless "SRD" which excluded anything needed to play the game or create characters. ;)

CRKrueger

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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2016, 06:19:25 PM »
So this is a MgT2 version of the DM's Guild?
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

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Harl Quinn

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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2016, 06:47:31 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;895470
So this is a MgT2 version of the DM's Guild?

Pretty much. There's been some talk that the agreement is boilerplate and is identical to the other "community" agreements in place at OBS, including the one for MWP's Cortex system.

For the record, here's what everybody's upset about:

Quote
“User Generated Content” shall be defined as the copyrightable elements included in your Work, such as original characters, scenes, locations and events. User Generated content shall not include the illustrations and cartographic artwork included in your work. Per the terms of this Agreement, you expressly agree that your User Generated Content, once submitted to the Program will become Program IP and useable by other members of the Program as well as the Owner as described in this Agreement."

No Reversion. Due to our licensing arrangement with the Owner and the collaborative nature of the Program, you are granting us broad licenses in your Work and your User Generated Content included in your Work, and the rights to your Work will not be reverted once it is published in the Program. You will have the ability through online tools at OBS websites to stop public display and sale of your Work on OBS marketplaces, but not to stop the sale of works of other authors in the Program even when such works use your User Generated Content that you originally created in your Work and thereby became part of the Program IP for other authors to use.


Harl Quinn
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 06:52:42 PM by Harl Quinn »
"...maybe this has to do with my being around at the start of published RPGs and the DIY attitude that we all had back then but, it seems to me that if you don't find whatever RPG you are playing sufficiently inclusive you ought to get up off your ass and GM something that you do find sufficiently inclusive. The RPG setting of your dreams is yours to create. Don't sit waiting and whining for someone else to create it for you." -- Bren speaking on inclusivity in RPGs

JeremyR

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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2016, 06:58:50 PM »
I don't see how they could avoid something like that.  DM's Guild style publication goes beyond the OGL, you get to use other people's IP, what other people have submitted to the store. If someone decides they no longer want their product to be part of it, then it would affect all the other products that might use that original product.



Quote from: Tod13;895457
Everything I needed to know about Mongoose, I learned from their worthless "SRD" which excluded anything needed to play the game or create characters. ;)


That's actually the point of a SRD though. It's not meant to replace the rulebook, it's meant to be designate what content other publishers/parties can use in their products. Most SRDs don't have character creation
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 07:02:35 PM by JeremyR »
http://osrnews.blogspot.com/ All the news about OSR products I can scrape up, including a weekly roundup of new OSR stuff at RPGNow

dragoner

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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2016, 07:51:21 PM »
Quote from: jeff37923;895449
And HOLY SHIT is the fight on about that......

Are you in the mongoose TAS forum? Is it going on there? I saw the gripping on CotI, I forgot my login to mongoose.
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yojimbouk

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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2016, 08:11:20 PM »
I don't really see what the furore is about. DM's Guild and TAS are an electronic replacement for submitting articles and adventures to a print magazine such as Dragon or Dungeon. You get paid but you lose the rights to your work. It seems to me that it should only be approached by enthusiastic amateurs that just want to get published or by individuals/companies that want to use another's IP (Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, OTU, etc.) Everyone else should avoid them and publish via OGL or as an unofficial product. That way they retain the right over their work.

jeff37923

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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2016, 09:05:34 PM »
Quote from: dragoner;895485
Are you in the mongoose TAS forum? Is it going on there? I saw the gripping on CotI, I forgot my login to mongoose.

No, I have been following everything through Facebook and CotI. Much more information on those channels.

jeff37923

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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2016, 09:09:10 PM »
For those interested, here is the full text of the TAS agreement:

Quote from: TAS Agreement

This Community Content Agreement (this “Agreement”) is a binding agreement between you, the individual identified by your customer account on this website or the legal entity you represent, and OneBookShelf, Inc. (“OBS”) the parent company of website marketplaces including DriveThruRPG, RPGNow and more.
This Agreement covers your participation in and use of The Travellers' Aid Society and the OBS websites that administer it, (the “Program”).
1. Acceptance
You accept this Agreement by clicking “I Agree” to set up and submit a new title (the “Work”) to OBS.
2. Intellectual Property Definitions
(a) Mongoose Publishing (collectively, the “Owner”) has granted OBS the right to use elements of Owner’s Traveller game (“Owner’s IP”) and sublicense certain limited rights to you under the terms of this Agreement.
Owner’s IP includes any and all Traveller tabletop roleplaying materials and content made available to you through the Program including, but not limited to:
Traveller rule sets
Portions and elements of Traveller campaign setting(s)
Artwork and other graphic templates and materials
Owner’s IP may be amended at any time and for any reason whatsoever without liability to you. However, any Work published in the Program prior to the removal of Owner’s IP will not require the removal or amendment of that Work.
(b) “Program IP” shall be defined as any User Generated Content (defined, below) distributed by the Program.
(c) “User Generated Content” shall be defined as the copyrightable elements included in your Work, such as original characters, scenes, locations and events. User Generated content shall not include the illustrations and cartographic artwork included in your work. Per the terms of this Agreement, you expressly agree that your User Generated Content, once submitted to the Program will become Program IP and useable by other members of the Program as well as the Owner as described in this Agreement.
3. Account Information; Account Suspension.
(a) Account Information; No Multiple Accounts. You must have an active user account in order to participate in the Program. You must ensure that all information you provide in connection with establishing your account, such as your name, address and email, is accurate when you provided it, and you must keep it up to date as long as you use the Program. You may maintain only one account at a time. You will not use false identities or impersonate any other person or use a username or password you are not authorized to use. You also consent to our sending you emails related to the Program and other publishing opportunities. This consent regarding contacting you by email takes precedence over any contrary directions you may have given us, including through Owner’s website.
(b) Account Security. You are solely responsible for safeguarding and maintaining the confidentiality of your account username and password and are responsible for all activities that occur under your account, whether or not you have authorized the activities. You may not permit any third party to use the Program through your account and will not use the account of any third party. You agree to immediately notify OneBookShelf.com of any unauthorized use of your username, password or account.
(c) Account Suspension. We may suspend your account or your participation in the Program at any time. You acknowledge that if we do so, you may be prevented from accessing communications and content on the OBS websites. If we suspend your account, you must stop using all The Travellers' Aid Society accounts and you will not create any new accounts.
4. Rights Granted to You.
(a) Subject to your compliance with the terms of this Agreement, OBS grants you the limited, nonexclusive, nontransferable, personal, worldwide and revocable right to use and otherwise incorporate Owner’s IP and Program IP into your Work(s) for distribution through the Program or other platforms and channels at the sole discretion of Owner.
(b) Except for short promotional excerpts used to promote your Work, you may not display, recreate, publish, distribute or sell your Work (or derivatives thereof) outside of the Program administered on OBS websites or through other platforms or channels authorized or offered by Owner.
5. Rights You Grant to OBS
(a) No Reversion. Due to our licensing arrangement with the Owner and the collaborative nature of the Program, you are granting us broad licenses in your Work and your User Generated Content included in your Work, and the rights to your Work will not be reverted once it is published in the Program. You will have the ability through online tools at OBS websites to stop public display and sale of your Work on OBS marketplaces, but not to stop the sale of works of other authors in the Program even when such works use your User Generated Content that you originally created in your Work and thereby became part of the Program IP for other authors to use.
(b) Exclusive License to your Work. Effective as of the date you setup your Work through the Program on OBS’s website, you grant us the exclusive, irrevocable license for the full term of copyright protection available (including renewals), to develop,
license, reproduce, print, publish, distribute, translate, display, publicly perform and transmit your Work, in whole and in part, in each country in the world, in all languages and formats, and by all means now known or later developed, and the right to prepare derivative works of your Work.
(c) Exclusive License to all User Generated Content in your Work. Effective as of the date we first make your Work available through the Program, you grant us the exclusive, irrevocable license for the full term of copyright protection available (including renewals), to all User Generated Content included in your Work. You agree that the User Generated Content is available for unrestricted use by us without any additional compensation, notification or attribution, including that we may allow other Program authors, the Owner and other third parties to use the User Generated Content.
6. Waiver of Claims; Waiver of Moral Rights.
In order to prevent legal claims that could be disruptive to the Program participants or impede the ability of you and other Program authors to participate in the Program, you irrevocably waive any legal claim you may have under any theory of law in any territory that your rights were infringed due to any use of your User Generated Content by us, the Owner or its affiliates, licensees and sublicensees, and/or any other Program authors, including copyright infringement. This waiver does not apply to royalty payments we may owe you under Section 7. You also irrevocably waive any moral rights in your Work and agree not to assert any moral rights in your Work against us, the Owner, and/or other Program authors. If, under any applicable law, this waiver of moral rights is not effective, you acknowledge that your Work is subject to the licenses you grant in Section 4 without any credit obligation, that you intend for your Work to be used in this way, and that this form of use will not be contrary to your moral rights.
7. Royalties and Payments
(a) Royalties. As full consideration of the rights you grant us under this Agreement, we will pay you a 50% royalty of the price paid on digital download format sales of your Work, and a 50% royalty on the print margin of print-on-demand sales of your Work. Print Margin is the amount paid less the print cost to physically manufacture the book as listed on OBS websites.
(b) Sales taxes and freight charges are not considered part of the price paid.
(c) No royalties accrue on sales resulting in consumer refunds, charge backs, or fraud.
(d) Royalties are computed in US dollars.
(e) Royalties are paid via PayPal. You shall have access on OBS websites to a webpage that allows you to withdraw accumulated royalties to your PayPal account. OBS may deduct a fee of $2 or PayPal’s prevailing fee for its MassPay service from each payment to you.
(f) OBS or Owner may send complimentary copies of your work for reasonable promotional and administrative purposes. No royalties shall be paid to you on such copies.
(g) You shall set the sale price of your Work. OBS may include your Work in site promotional sales events at discounts up to 40% off your normal sale price.
(h) Royalties on a sale of your Work shall be eligible for your withdrawal 60 days after the sale.
8. Representations, Warranties and Indemnity.
You represent and warrant that:
(a) You are old enough to form a legally binding contract.
(b) If you are accepting this Agreement on behalf of a company or other legal entity, you represent that you have the legal authority to bind that company or legal entity.
(c) Excluding the Owner’s IP and Program IP which we license to you and excluding the illustrations and cartographic artwork in your Work, you are the sole owner of all rights in your Work. You have the rights or license to use the illustrations and cartographic artwork in your Work.
(d) Your Work does not contain material that is libelous; that violates the copyrights or trademarks of another party; that violates the law; or that the general public would classify as pornography.
You will indemnify and hold OBS and Owner harmless from any liability or cause of action arising from any breach of your representations and warranties including all reasonable attorneys’ fees and costs.
9. No Obligation to Make Available or Sell. You acknowledge that we have no obligation to market, distribute, or offer for sale your Work, or to continuing marketing, distributing or selling your Work after we have started doing so. We may remove your Work from the Program and cease further exploitation at any time in our sole discretion without notice to you.
10. Disclaimers; Limitation of Liability. THE PROGRAM IS PROVIDED "AS IS." WE AND THE OWNER WILL IN NO EVENT BE LIABLE FOR ANY LOSS OF DATA, LOSS OF PROFITS, COST OF COVER OR OTHER SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, INDIRECT, EXEMPLARY OR RELIANCE DAMAGES ARISING FROM OR IN RELATION TO THIS AGREEMENT, OR FOR ANY EQUITABLE REMEDY OF DISGORGEMENT OR OTHERWISE, HOWEVER CAUSED AND REGARDLESS OF THEORY OF LIABILITY. IN NO EVENT WILL OUR (OR OWNER) LIABILITY UNDER THIS AGREEMENT EXCEED THE GREATER OF (I) THE AMOUNT OF FEES DUE AND PAYABLE BY US TO YOU UNDER THIS AGREEMENT FOR THE TWELVE-MONTH PERIOD PRECEDING THE CLAIM AND (II) FIFTY DOLLARS ($50.00). WE SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIM, WITH RESPECT TO ALL SERVICES, SOFTWARE, CONTENT OR PRODUCTS PROVIDED BY OR ON BEHALF OF US IN CONNECTION WITH THIS AGREEMENT OR THE PROGRAM, ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND NON-INFRINGEMENT. YOU AGREE THAT WE CANNOT ENSURE THAT EDITIONS OF YOUR USER GENERATED CONDITIONS WILL BE PROTECTED FROM THEFT OR MISUSE OR THAT CUSTOMERS WILL COMPLY WITH ANY CONTENT USAGE RULES. ONEBOOKSHELF WILL HAVE NO LIABILITY ARISING FROM A FAILURE OF ANY SECURITY SYSTEM OR PROCEDURE OR OF ANY CUSTOMER TO COMPLY WITH ANY CONTENT USAGE RULES. WE CANNOT GUARANTEE THAT OUR SYSTEMS WILL ALWAYS BE AVAILABLE, AND WE WILL HAVE NO LIABILITY ARISING FROM SYSTEM OR PROCESS FAILURES, INTERRUPTIONS, INACCURACIES, ERRORS OR LATENCIES.
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11. Execution of Further Agreements and Documents. Protection of rights sometimes requires formal filings of paper documents and it may be helpful for us to have physical signed versions of this Agreement or other documents. You agree to sign and deliver to us any further documents that we may reasonably request to confirm your grant of rights to us (and Owner) under this Agreement, following all instructions we provide for signature and return (“Additional Documents”). If you do not complete and return any such Additional Documents within 30 days after we request them, you agree that we can sign the Additional Documents on your behalf and, to make your agreement legally enforceable, you hereby irrevocably appoint us as your attorney-in-fact with full power to execute, acknowledge and deliver the Additional Documents as required to confirm our rights. In legal terms, your appointment is a power coupled with an interest.
12. No Rescission or Injunctive Relief. All rights granted to us (and Owner) under this Agreement are irrevocably vested. No breach by us (or Owner) of this Agreement will entitle you to equitable relief, whether injunctive or otherwise, against or with respect to your User Generated Content or any other works produced pursuant to the rights granted under this Agreement or their exploitation. If the rights granted to OBS (or Owner) under this Agreement should revert to you under any copyright law or similar law, and if you are at any time thereafter prepared to enter an agreement with a third party for the license, exercise or other disposition of all or any of those rights, you will, before entering into the agreement, give OBS and Owner notice of the proposed terms (and all modifications of the terms) and the party involved. In each case, both OBS and Owner will then have 10 business days in which to elect to acquire the rights involved on the terms you offered to that third party.
13. General Provisions.
(a) This Agreement constitutes the entire agreement between the parties with respect to its subject matter. If any provision of this Agreement is held invalid by a court or other tribunal with jurisdiction over the parties to this Agreement, that provision will be deemed to be restated to reflect as nearly as possible the original intentions of the parties in accordance with applicable law, and the remainder of this Agreement will remain in full force and effect. The failure of either party to enforce any provision of this Agreement does not waive the party's rights to subsequently enforce the provision.
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Independence Games

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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2016, 09:59:30 PM »
Quote from: yojimbouk;895488
I don't really see what the furore is about. DM's Guild and TAS are an electronic replacement for submitting articles and adventures to a print magazine such as Dragon or Dungeon. You get paid but you lose the rights to your work. It seems to me that it should only be approached by enthusiastic amateurs that just want to get published or by individuals/companies that want to use another's IP (Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, OTU, etc.) Everyone else should avoid them and publish via OGL or as an unofficial product. That way they retain the right over their work.

I can help you there.

The 3PP have been told for the last five months that TAS would be similar to the DM's Guild but would have several important differences.  Among those differences would be that publishers (such as myself) who had settings independent of the Official Traveller Universe would have their IP protected while The Official Traveller Universe would be a playground for anyone who liked (much as you state in your post).  So many of us (myself included) put a lot of effort, work, and funding into creating versions of our products which would use the new rules Mongoose had released.

We discovered that we would lose our IP in the terms and conditions on the page where we upload products.  Simply put, if I had taken Mongoose at their previous word and not carefully read the terms and conditions, then I would have just turned my IP over.  It felt very sneaky and underhanded.  Many of the other 3PP had the same problem.

GKG's intention was to continue one line using the 1e OGL version of the rules and produce a second line using the 2e rules on TAS.  Obviously, that second line has been canceled.

So that's why there is a furor.  There are other problems with it as well but that's the primary problem.  Most of us feel as if we just barely avoided a trap.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 10:18:06 PM by Independence Games »
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CRKrueger

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« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2016, 12:31:30 AM »
It seems like WotC has come up with a way of getting rid of the OGL.  First they tried to kill it by making a version of D&D, 4e, that was so different, you couldn't use the OGL really to cover it.  That didn't work out too well, but Paizo sure was appreciative. :cool:

Then they come up with the DM's Guild.  You lose a 15-25% margin over what you could do via the OGL, but you get access to most of their IP.  Want to make your own Priest classes for each of the Forgotten Realms gods and get paid for it?  No other way to do that before besides spending lots of money and time negotiating with WotC.

Now you have the same thing with MgT.  You lose a larger cut and get access to the Third Imperium.  You always wanted to publish your 450 page epic campaign to prevent the fall of the Solomani?  Now you can.  No approval needed, no money spent up front.  What you lose is only getting 50% of the sales instead of 60-75% of the sales.

Obviously, for the guys publishing their own stuff that only relies on the system and not the IP, it would be suicide to post your stuff up on DM's Guild or TAS, and OBS, WotC or Mongoose don't make that explicit enough.

But, getting rid of guys like Gypsy Games through slow strangulation is the whole point of the exercise.  
  • New system, so the old one isn't compatible.
  • New license, so anything other than the OGL or CCP is gone.
  • New marketplace, where the brand identity you've worked so hard to cultivate is gone.


These OBS "Community Content Programs" are there for three things...
  • So you can make some money by promoting the larger companies' brand and IP through content creation - essentially it's a marketing and market share plan.
  • Get rid of the smaller companies that do their own thing with generic systems and don't need the Brand/IP of the larger companies.
  • Have OBS partner with so many companies under these CCP agreements that new startup pdf websites like TableTopLibrary.com will have a much harder road.

Now I don't think Monte Cook or Margaret Weiss ever had an OGL for their systems, so they're not trying to get the money from OGL publishers "back to where it belongs", but the CCP model is troubling, because more and more companies are now going to have a choice of releasing via OGL or CC and essentially getting nothing, letting other people make money off their systems, or going with the OBS CCP and get 25% of all community content.

CCP is meant to be the OGL killer.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

The Butcher

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« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2016, 06:21:29 AM »
So, who's writing the CT/MgT1 retroclone? ;)

Shawn Driscoll

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« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2016, 06:30:40 AM »
I was hoping to do a pay-what-you-want for all my Traveller apps. Basically free app stuff for Mongoose Referees/Players/etc. But Matthew won't allow software still. I guess a lot of Referees are sitting on apps they've written.

estar

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« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2016, 08:41:23 AM »
Quote from: jeff37923;895449
And HOLY SHIT is the fight on about that......

Tucked away in the TAS agreement is the legal part which tells you that all copyright to the work submitted goes straight to Mongoose Publishing. So if you have an already established setting like Orbital or Clement Sector, Mongoose will own it if you post it via TAS. I have not seen one 3PP for Traveller want to touch that yet because they do not want to lose their IP.

First off, no the copyright doesn't go to Mongoose. The exact wording grants TAS the EXCLUSIVE right to your work. If Mongoose wants to use it outside of TAS they have to enter into a separate agreement with you. And it is the exact same license for all four programs.

Which I why I recommend only publishing under any of the four if and only if your project absolutely doesn't work without the publisher's IP.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 08:43:33 AM by estar »