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Author Topic: The Thing that Does the Thing with That Other Thing  (Read 2043 times)

Spike

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The Thing that Does the Thing with That Other Thing
« on: December 20, 2019, 06:54:32 PM »
Back when Numenera was still just a Kickstarter project, Monte Cook started hyping up his biggest idea yet, the notion that a character could be described by, even built from, a Sentence. The Dude that does the Thing with That Other thing.

You know: I am a Half-Orc Samurai who Fights Duelling Style...

...oh, wait, that's my last D&D character.

Lets try something from the Invisible Sun RPG instead.

I am a Phlegmatic Order of the Vance who Understands the Words.

Dressed up in mis-applied fancy talk (in the abusive fashion of the Invisible Sun RPG) that certainly sounds nice, but honestly its rubbed me the wrong way ever since the Numenera days.  And I think I finally worked out the single biggest flaw.

See, I do think its a clever idea, though as evidenced by my first example, not nearly so clever as it was presented. Players have always reduced their characters down to a few identifiable elements as a short hand to talk with other players. The exact information presented varies depending on the conversation and the exact game being played.

Boiled down to its essence, the problem with the Cook Idea is that his sentences are both Limiting and Reductive.  Rather than expanding your horizons, or making deeper and richer characters, you wind up smaller and less interesting as a result.

Lets go back to my D&D character. Without the Cook Idea, the sentence could just as easily be 'I'm a 3rd Level Half-Orc Samurai with the Sword of Kas' (Note: I do not have the Sword of Kas…). Or I could be a Lawful Good Samurai, or a Half Orc Fighter with a Katana, or the Fighter who Fights with His Persuasion Skill...

I can shape that sentence however I like to convey information as needed. Its a bit of hyperbole to suggest the number of sentences I can create about/from a single character are infinite, but certainly they are broader than the single, fixed format suggested by Cook.

But its also reductive. Looking at a single character there are only so many ways I can actually describe my singular character, certainly, but taken from the broader context of D&D as a whole, the number of possible 'setences' I can create approaches the infinite in truth... and not merely because I have far more choices than a mere simple sentence allows for.

Take again the Cook Sentence, which in the Cypher System, and in Invisible Sun, you end your sentence with some 'big flash thing' that goes beyond the basics of race and class. In Invisible Sun this is your Forte, and Monte Cook provides some twenty or so Fortes.

And that is it.  Sure, they are all colorful and exotic. Bears an Orb, fuses Fist and Nightmare, Shepards the Mind... one might honestly suggest your Forte is far more colorful and interesting than the means by which you make magic (Your Order).

But it requires Monte Cook to have dreamed it up for you. More absolutely in Invisible Sun than the equivalent in the Cypher system, as you need a solid ten powers arranged in a leveled tree, which is beyond the scope of your typical homebrew rules.

But again: Look to D&D. My equivalent 'forte' might be the specific fighting style I prefer, or a prominent magic item (one of several I bear), or even a choice spell-metamagic combo I use a lot.  When the unique thing that separates my fighter from another fighter is taken from the character, rather than used to create the character, the options are much more open, and can change.

Looking at some of the Fortes in Invisible Sun the question I wound up with was 'what if my character joins that cult during game play? Why wouldn't they then have two fortes?', which is an unnecessary question to create.  By going backwards, by creating the description before the character, you create a series of rules that can conflict with organic, evolving characters who change and grow, eventually necessitating additional rules to patch the problems created by working backwards in the first place.

Forgive me if you are all five years ahead of me on figuring this out...
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Shrieking Banshee

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The Thing that Does the Thing with That Other Thing
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2019, 07:13:28 PM »
The Cypher System is also really dull. Finding magical knick-knacks feels dull when their effects are so negligible and samey.

His principle was "Well Players like doing cool stuff, but balancing around cool stuff is hard, so how about limited uses of cool stuff?", well thats GM fiat and not cool stuff.

This man has a way of selling stupid ideas (This is him about The stuff from numanera):

Quote
This means that in gameplay, they're less like magic items and more like character abilities that the players don't choose.

Spike

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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2019, 07:19:35 PM »
I noticed that, but I recall being more concerned with the rather hard way the numbers broke.  As I recall you have multiple levels but only three real difficulties: Super Easy, A challenge, and Fuck You.  I'm being glib, of course.

Oddly, from what I can tell of Invisible Sun, magic items might actually be more important than the character.  I only have the Key book (one of four necessary for play), but in that you seem to average 2 'points' per attribute, while 'kindled items' which can be bought openly (and are far less cool than proper magic items, I gather) can provide up to 4 points in an attribute, and you can have lots of them equipped, just not two of the same 'type'... only one pair of pants, yo...
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Shrieking Banshee

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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2019, 07:35:52 PM »
Quote from: Spike;1117121
I noticed that, but I recall being more concerned with the rather hard way the numbers broke.  As I recall you have multiple levels but only three real difficulties: Super Easy, A challenge, and Fuck You.  I'm being glib, of course.

It's more that even passing challenges hurts you. I don't know which dunderhead decided that your health system would double as a resource system, and that succeeding on harder tasks requires you hurt yourself.

Spinachcat

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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2019, 09:01:50 PM »
Everything involving Monte Cook has always been overhyped online. He's far better at marketing himself than making anything useful for actual play.

VisionStorm

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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2019, 09:12:11 PM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1117125
It's more that even passing challenges hurts you. I don't know which dunderhead decided that your health system would double as a resource system, and that succeeding on harder tasks requires you hurt yourself.


That specific bit isn't entirely so bad (at least conceptually speaking), cuz you could literally strain yourself or blow a hernia applying effort to physical tasks. The problem is that they built the entire task resolution mechanic (and power use, IIRC) around it, then made it a major thing where you're expected to blow resource/health points ANY time you encounter an actual challenge and gave you a measly number of points to do it. If they'd at least split it up between physical health for injuries and strain/fatigue(stun?) for effort and power use, and/or maybe give you a few more points, it might not be so bad. But they give you too little, then expect you to burn your points ALL the freaking time.

As for the actual topic, I found the "Adjective noun who verbs" thing kinda interesting (if a bit pretentious) at first, but it ultimately comes off as a story gaming thing that at the end of the day still limits you to a race/descriptor class/profession and specialty/AD&D 2e Kit type of thing, except they tend to be even more setting-specific and written in pretentious prose. And it sounds cutesy and creative, but as far as I can tell (I haven't played it yet, only read Numenera and a few supplements years ago) you're still limited to whatever "Adjectives nouns and verbs" they've actually published, so it's not like you get that many customization options beyond mixing and matching different published adjectives nouns and verbs.

Shrieking Banshee

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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2019, 09:58:29 PM »
Quote from: VisionStorm;1117137
That specific bit isn't entirely so bad (at least conceptually speaking), cuz you could literally strain yourself or blow a hernia applying effort to physical tasks. The problem is that they built the entire task resolution mechanic (and power use, IIRC) around it, then made it a major thing where you're expected to blow resource/health points ANY time you encounter an actual challenge and gave you a measly number of points to do it. If they'd at least split it up between physical health for injuries and strain/fatigue(stun?) for effort and power use, and/or maybe give you a few more points, it might not be so bad. But they give you too little, then expect you to burn your points ALL the freaking time.

Yup. Maybe I should have been more specific. This becomes doubly stupid where if you fight too long you die even if your never hit. I know there could be...SOME explanation and precedent for it, but the execution is just lame.

Quote
As for the actual topic, I found the "Adjective noun who verbs" thing kinda interesting (if a bit pretentious) at first, but it ultimately comes off as a story gaming thing that at the end of the day still limits you to a race/descriptor class/profession and specialty/AD&D 2e Kit type of thing, except they tend to be even more setting-specific and written in pretentious prose.

I know the RPGpundit hates that stuff, but what exactly IS a storygame. I would think it would be a game that prioritizes story over PCs freeform roleplaying in a world, but I find that thrown more at stuff like WOD thats just a bunch of emo wank wrapped around a pretty hard crunch system, but not FATE which has borderline everything be the PCs just rolling dice whenever they feel like it.

VisionStorm

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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2019, 02:01:22 AM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1117142
I know the RPGpundit hates that stuff, but what exactly IS a storygame. I would think it would be a game that prioritizes story over PCs freeform roleplaying in a world, but I find that thrown more at stuff like WOD thats just a bunch of emo wank wrapped around a pretty hard crunch system, but not FATE which has borderline everything be the PCs just rolling dice whenever they feel like it.


TBH, I'm not entirely sure how to precisely define it myself. But I believe that in the strictest sense it refers more specifically to games with mechanics that affect the story. Though, I've seen it applied very broadly to just about any game that focuses on narrative elements.

JeremyR

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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2019, 02:44:36 AM »
Obviously I must be missing something, because this is literally what classes and their names are.

The fighter fights
The thief thieves
The magic-user uses magic

Okay, the cleric isn't as obvious as the others, but still

GeekEclectic

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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2019, 03:33:11 AM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1117142
I know the RPGpundit hates that stuff, but what exactly IS a storygame. I would think it would be a game that prioritizes story over PCs freeform roleplaying in a world, but I find that thrown more at stuff like WOD thats just a bunch of emo wank wrapped around a pretty hard crunch system, but not FATE which has borderline everything be the PCs just rolling dice whenever they feel like it.
There's no real consensus, but in general storygames have mechanics intended to force a particular narrative structure to emerge instead of just letting it do so naturally. And a lot of games get lumped into this category in spite of being pretty traditional because their creators are pretentious wankers that make claims the mechanics just don't support. It's a mess.
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Spinachcat

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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2019, 04:50:43 AM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1117142
I know the RPGpundit hates that stuff, but what exactly IS a storygame.


Since this forum was founded, there's been a couple dozen threads involving arguments as to WTF is a storygame. Without going into the many specifics, here's the rub. What is usually referred to as a storygame is a RPG-ish game which may or may not have a GM where players have some (or all) narrative control over their characters. For example, in many storygames, the GM cannot kill your PC without your permission. In many storygames, the setting and NPCs are created and controlled by the players with little, if any, input by the GM (if there is even a GM present).  As such, I consider them to be their own genre of games, much like how LARPing has RPG-ish aspects, but LARPS aren't traditional tabletop RPGs.  The entire Swine Wars with RPGPundit existed because instead of celebrating their new game genre, many (but not all) fans and authors of storygames declared these new narrative games to be the "real" RPGs, inherently superior to "old" RPGs, and much more nauseous stupidity.

Shrieking Banshee

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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2019, 09:11:16 AM »
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1117165
There's no real consensus, but in general storygames have mechanics intended to force a particular narrative structure to emerge instead of just letting it do so naturally.

Thats almost every RPG including the original D&D.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1117168
Since this forum was founded, there's been a couple dozen threads involving arguments as to WTF is a storygame. Without going into the many specifics, here's the rub. What is usually referred to as a storygame is a RPG-ish game which may or may not have a GM where players have some (or all) narrative control over their characters. For example, in many storygames, the GM cannot kill your PC without your permission. In many storygames, the setting and NPCs are created and controlled by the players with little, if any, input by the GM (if there is even a GM present).  As such, I consider them to be their own genre of games, much like how LARPing has RPG-ish aspects, but LARPS aren't traditional tabletop RPGs.  The entire Swine Wars with RPGPundit existed because instead of celebrating their new game genre, many (but not all) fans and authors of storygames declared these new narrative games to be the "real" RPGs, inherently superior to "old" RPGs, and much more nauseous stupidity.

Ah I see. It's not so much an actual ruleset but a mindset. Because having played WOD extensively it's pretty much the run of the mill RPG with some wank attached.

Fate is a game with much more elements of PC narrative control, but again I never saw the Pundit express his loathing towards it.

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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2019, 03:55:16 PM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1117142
Yup. Maybe I should have been more specific. This becomes doubly stupid where if you fight too long you die even if your never hit. I know there could be...SOME explanation and precedent for it, but the execution is just lame..


Death from exhaustion is actually a frighteningly common thing in factory work. I worked in a hell hole of one and a friend of mine died that way. So I could see someone on a battlefield overextending themselves and at the very least passing out, or even dropping dead. Though Id think passing out would be more common.

The way it seems to be set up in the game does sound a bit odd. The original Albedo has a similar exhaustion system, but much more nuanced and reasonable.

Shrieking Banshee

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« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2019, 04:05:20 PM »
Quote from: Omega;1117185
Death from exhaustion is actually a frighteningly common thing in factory work.

Again its the execution. Your not fighting hordes for hours, or even AN hour. Just about ANY level of exertion requires you hurt yourself. And there is no "Nonlethal HP" type deal.

VisionStorm

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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2019, 05:47:46 PM »
Quote from: JeremyR;1117163
Obviously I must be missing something, because this is literally what classes and their names are.

The fighter fights
The thief thieves
The magic-user uses magic

Okay, the cleric isn't as obvious as the others, but still


In the Cypher System it would be more like "I am a Charismatic Fighter that Wields Fire", where Charismatic is a special quality you possess that grants you some bonus (maybe a bonus to rolls to impress people or get them to do what you want in this case), Fighter is your actual class that determines most your basic skills, and Wields Fire is some special ability that you have on top of your basic class abilities (in this case you probably can generate fire and use it as a weapon). And much like in my example, your selections don't have to follow traditional class expectations--even though in D&D or similar games fighters usually benefit more from physical power and don't have magic, you could still play a charismatic fighter with fire magic (assuming those elements have been defined in the game) and somehow make it work.

The character elements always follow the same sentence structure: "I am an Adjective (special quality) Noun (class) that Verbs (special ability/specialty)".

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1117187
Again its the execution. Your not fighting hordes for hours, or even AN hour. Just about ANY level of exertion requires you hurt yourself. And there is no "Nonlethal HP" type deal.


I found the entire Stat mechanics (which is directly tied to this) to be kinda interesting yet way too "gamey" and horrendously executed. They basically tried to copy the D&D convention of "Attributes have Scores", but then those scores don't give you anything constant--only a Pool of points you can spend when attempting tasks or using an ability tied to that stat. But those points are also your health for that particular aspect of your basic capabilities, and if it ever reaches 0 you either die (Might), become immobile (Speed) or a drooling idiot (Intellect).

But then in addition to that your Stats have a separate component that can be developed independently called Edges. And unlike your stat scores (Pool), your stat's Edge actually gives you persistent benefits similar to a D&D stat bonus, yet still tied to Cypher's contrived mechanics, where instead of simply giving you a bonus they reduce the number of points you spend from your stat Pool when making rolls or using abilities. And if the Edge reduces the cost to 0, it's free (effectively giving you a permanent reduction to task difficulty for the stat).

But all of this crap could have been simplified by simply making Stats give you a roll bonus and instead of having stat-based pools you could just have one physical Health pool to stay alive, and one separate non-lethal Strain pool for effort and using kwel powerz of any type. And achieve almost the same effect, but with less complications, or having to invent some weird paralysis state that doesn't exist in real life in order to explain what happens when your Speed pool reaches 0.