For those who have GM'd the classic campaign 'The Temple of Elemental Evil'.
Nostalgia aside, ToEE can be a bit of a grind. It's basically room after room of killing things and taking their stuff. We're using 5ed rules though, and so far we've found those fights are flying by. That said, looking ahead the only thing I see are more fights, and by the dozen.
If you ever GM'd this campaign in the past, what if anything did you do to make it less a hack and slash affair? Any tips/advice? I realise you can play the factions (air priests, fire priests, water priests etc) against each other, but I was wondering if there was another angle I could use.
Thanks all.
Short version: Identify the factions.
I actually color-coded the maps to make it clearer which factions controlled which areas of the dungeon and how those factions interacted with each other.
Then you need to flesh out the factions a bit: What do they each want? What type of personality do they have? Where do they conflict with each other?
Finally, have the factions react strongly to the changes the PCs are inflicting on the Temple. Have some of the factions get proactive, trying to recruit the PCs to take out other factions. (And if open recruitment doesn't work, maybe they'll try to trick the PCs into doing what they want.)
If your players are more than just hack-n-slashers, they'll figure out that they can take advantage of these factional divisions to their own advantage. There'll still be a lot of combat, but it will be contextualized by a lot of roleplaying and/or strategic considerations.
Don't forget that the Temple's forces don't spend all their time in the dungeon: They're established as being active throughout the region. Have them pursue the PCs, and not necessarily in a straight-line. For example, having one of the factions kidnap an NPC they care about and hold them as a hostage is a good way to motivate a strike on the Temple that's more strategic than just "hit anything we happen to run into".
Great advice
Thank you!
I'm running ToEE right now, the party has completed half the elemental nodes so we're getting close to the grand finale.
Use NPC names. Let the players know the names of the important NPCs through interrogation or secretly listening in. The players will plan ahead of time how they want to interact with those NPCs and will search them out. And have them lie sometimes (of course); the enemies are evil and will try to trick the players into rescuing the evil guys and fight against the prisoners.
Look through the module's tactical plans. A lot of encounters in the temple levels trigger bad guys in adjoining rooms to come and aid their compadres. This makes for more epic fights and fewer individual encounters.
Encourage the players to interact with the puzzle rooms, even though they should be very afraid to. The puzzle rooms are a nice counterpoint to the fights.
Give the players mysterious prophecies and omens.
In the end, ToEE is a great adventure for giving the players enough rope. Provide lots of rope and let the players get themselves in trouble.
You know, I ran it once like 25 years ago, then the two times I tried to run it in the last decade both attempts proved abortive: the players just didn't go in.
Quote from: RPGPundit;844191You know, I ran it once like 25 years ago, then the two times I tried to run it in the last decade both attempts proved abortive: the players just didn't go in.
Interesting
Dare I say, it's because the average gamer has evolved along with the whole rpg scene?
It's great to go through a dungeon romp now and again, but primarily, for me at least, I think I'd prefer a little more meat on my adventurous outing. Social skulduggery, political back stabbing and all that. Those types of adventures also have the added bonus of making dungeon romps that more pleasing when they do come around.
I'm running the TOEE right now. They're in the elemental nodes. It's been a lot of fun! It's a wacky, high risk/high reward power dungeon. The backstory and factional organization are poorly done but the tricks, traps, encounters and treasures are excellent. At least on level 1-3; the 4th level and the nodes are not to the same standard and should be hustled through as quickly as possible--I ran the 4th level as one gigantic encounter in waves, and we're doing the nodes at a rate of like 1 per session.
I've found that it's actually run better the more I've embraced the hack and slash of it.I think where people get into trouble is they add too much crap to the campaign with no connection to the dungeon, in the thought that providing respites will keep the dungeoncrawling fresh. I think this is a mistake. It makes the dungeon feel like it's taking longer to complete...because it makes the dungeon take longer to complete. I started more sandboxy with several additional adventures around Hommlet, but then when the players started to really dig into the temple I allowed the campaign to focus on it. When you have a big dungeon that the PCs are supposed to clear (a true exploratory megadungeon would be different; but the TOEE is undeniably a "lair" dungeon, that the PCs are tasked to not just explore but destroy), the way to keep the players attention is to let them make as much progress per unit real time as possible. We're playing twice a week for the last bit of it ( fine with me since I have no prep).
Also DO NOT reduce the treasure. Leave it be and embrace the powergaming :cheerleader:
Quote from: Scutter;844220Interesting
Dare I say, it's because the average gamer has evolved along with the whole rpg scene?
I think it has more to do with DMs regressing in their ability to run them.
Quote from: Libramarian;844309I think it has more to do with DMs regressing in their ability to run them.
I certainly don't think that was my problem.
If I had run this years ago, I might have invented some reason to FORCE them to go in. These days, I wouldn't care, if they don't want to engage with this particular module there's lots of others that they can get into instead.
Quote from: RPGPundit;844636I certainly don't think that was my problem.
If I had run this years ago, I might have invented some reason to FORCE them to go in. These days, I wouldn't care, if they don't want to engage with this particular module there's lots of others that they can get into instead.
I was actually grappling with this question since I wanted to run Mines of Madness for 5E. The question is, what's stopping them from just leaving the dungeon every other encounter and doing a Long Rest, then going back in. Or just deciding to leave and do stuff somewhere else instead, when the module is just about the mines. What would you do for the former? For the latter, would you just say "OK that's it for this game then, let's play something else"?
I ran tToEE up until recently.
It was fun to run up to actually entering the temple itself. After that it's just a dungeon bash.
I of course knew this as I played it many years ago, but for me and the players I ran it for, it has aged very badly. I guess my tastes have changed from running/playing a pure dungeonbash.
It just got boring, constantly exploring level after level of a dungeon..
I've since given up on it.
I AM going to run "Princes of the apocalypse" tho, which is a lot better from what I've read so far.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;844664I was actually grappling with this question since I wanted to run Mines of Madness for 5E. The question is, what's stopping them from just leaving the dungeon every other encounter and doing a Long Rest, then going back in. Or just deciding to leave and do stuff somewhere else instead, when the module is just about the mines. What would you do for the former? For the latter, would you just say "OK that's it for this game then, let's play something else"?
What's to stop them in 1e or Labyrinth Lord or whatever from doing two rooms and then resting the night?
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;844664I was actually grappling with this question since I wanted to run Mines of Madness for 5E. The question is, what's stopping them from just leaving the dungeon every other encounter and doing a Long Rest, then going back in.
Nothing is stopping them, but in most dungeons it makes sense for the denizens to use that time to regroup and prepare for the next PC invasion. In many dungeons, it might even cause the denizens to start raiding and attacking settlements outside of the dungeon, or the PCs' camp itself.
I figure you should just let the PCs do whatever they want to do, and then figure out what the logical and natural consequences of that will be.
QuoteOr just deciding to leave and do stuff somewhere else instead, when the module is just about the mines. What would you do for the former? For the latter, would you just say "OK that's it for this game then, let's play something else"?
Why quit the game? If the players don't want to explore dungeons, maybe you need to play a game that's not about exploring dungeons. If they just don't want to explore THAT dungeon, though, find another dungeon for them to explore instead.
Typically, when the players don't want to do whatever the DM thinks the campaign is about, there's been a breakdown in communication somewhere.