This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
The message boards have been upgraded. Please log in to your existing account by clicking here. It will ask twice, so that it can properly update your password and login information. If it has trouble recognizing your password, click the 'Forgot your password?' link to reset it with a new password sent to your email address on file.

Author Topic: The RPG Site and White Wolf  (Read 9076 times)

ShieldWife

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
    • View Profile
    • https://www.youtube.com/user/ShieldWife
The RPG Site and White Wolf
« Reply #165 on: May 20, 2020, 06:54:38 pm »
Quote from: Chris24601;1130747
The Anarchs got turned into the Sabbat, complete with their own specific Clans with elders, that completely undermines the point of being an Anarch in the first place while the Sabbat got put on a bus and driven into an IED. If your faction can only be taken seriously by turning it into another faction and removing the original faction, it never deserved to taken seriously. I'd argue they work better as a joke particularly because of your next point...

They've always been the Illuminati and what makes point 3 above even funnier is that in real life those plucky Occupy/Antifa/BLM rebels V5 wants you to identify with get the majority of their funding from the same behind the scenes globalist money men who own most of the politicians they're paid to protest against. Nothing about this needed any sort of new edition, much less a complete gutting and trashing of the rules to be able to portray... it just needed a book with these things as plot points.

Yes, these are exactly my thoughts. The Anarchs were turned into the Sabbat, thus leaving no Anarch movement in a sense. The Anarchs are only meaningful as a faction within or overlapping with the Camarilla.

I also agree about all of the Antifa (and other extremist leftist types) types really being tools for the establishment. Though this brings up something that I have long thought about Anarchs in V:tM - they don't have to be leftists. Well, of course from the perspective of Camarilla politics they are left wing, but that is a feudal aristocracy based on bloodlines and undying lords. Anarchs who oppose that don't have to be Antifa, they don't have to be communists or SJW's - in fact they probably aren't. Just because Anarchs are the far left of the vampire world doesn't mean that they are going to be the far left of the human world. Imagine your stereotypical middle aged middle class white Christian guy from the 1950's who gets embraced. Well, this guy believes in democracy, he believes in freedom, he believes in the Bill of Rights - weren't those the sorts of freedoms what he was fighting to protect in WWII? Aren't those freedoms what he wants to protect from the dirty commies? Well, what is this patriotic 1950's American going to think about being ruled by a bunch of aristocrats who were never elected, who aren't even Americans, and who also use their power to control the US political system. Isn't that what the Founding Fathers were fighting against? This guy would hate that stuff and if he maintains his values and manages to get out from under the thumb of his sire, he would certainly support some movement to reform the Camarilla - like the Anarchs. That doesn't mean that he is a punk with a mohawk and a tattoo on his face or that he's going to beat up people at a political march - by all metrics this guy would be very conservative by modern human standards.

In fact, a leftist might have fewer objections to the Camarilla style of rule than many on the right would, speaking in terms of modern human politics.

Quote from: Chris24601;1130747
V5 wants Vampions to be declared "badwrongfun" so... Fuck V5.
Part of the fun of any role playing game from D&D to Vampire to Champions to (pick your favorite) is getting to be a badass. That doesn't mean that there aren't more powerful beings out there, there always are and it's a big part of vampire, but players should feel that their characters are important and have the agency to change the world around them.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 06:59:11 pm by ShieldWife »

CTPhipps

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 410
    • View Profile
The RPG Site and White Wolf
« Reply #166 on: May 20, 2020, 08:20:39 pm »
The Anarchs had the Anarch Free States so they were their own sect.

http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/2020/04/ten-tips-to-playing-anarchs.html

I made this article recently on that.

Chris24601

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • C
  • Posts: 1495
    • View Profile
The RPG Site and White Wolf
« Reply #167 on: May 21, 2020, 05:15:20 am »
Quote from: CTPhipps;1130764
The Anarchs had the Anarch Free States so they were their own sect.

No one is arguing that.

The argument is that by making the Brujah and Gangrel (and Ministers) into pillars of the Anarchs and setting the Anarchs more overtly against the Camarilla you've basically turned them into another Sabbat; a sect defined by specific clans with their own elders who target the Camarilla as a whole with more militant actions... whereas before they were defined as being the vampire "youth" who opposed the elders.

And because the Anarchs are now basically the Sabbat, the real Sabbat got put on a bus and driven into an IED so they can be memory-holed. The V5 lore has been very clear that most of the Sabbat who didn't get on the bus defected to the Anarchs and one of the Sabbat's two pillar clans is defecting to the Camarilla while the other has been utterly MIA for more than two years now (we've had more Ravnos sightings; a clan supposedly all but annihilated after the Week of Nightmares; than we have the Tzmisce).

Honestly, this is just one more place where V5 can be compared with the much reviled Mage Revised. They too wiped out factions (the disparates in the case of MRev) and merged the survivors nonsensically. Remember when they put the Chinese Imperial Celestial magicians who'd been warring with the Akashics almost as long as the Euthanatos INTO the Akashics? Or when they put the "all non-Catholics are heathens and we'll die for our beliefs" into the ecumenical pantheistic Celestial Chorus?

Now its throwing all the groups that knew Necromancy together into Clan Heceta even though it makes zero sense (and I believe I've already explained why earlier in this thread, but it may have been over on the OP forums) and wiping out the Sabbat.

MRev also messed over the magic system the same way V5 messed over the disciplines. MRev added enforced roleplay mechanics in the form of resonance traits the same way V5 added touchstones and convictions. MRev too decided to gut Master-level play to force a "street level" style of play onto the game. MRev also had to start backtracking almost immediately due to the fan hatred of the changes.

Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. V5 is making all the mistakes MRev did and will probably be remembered the same way (M20 went out of its way in the default assumptions/future fates sections to basically undo every last MRev metaplot element and restored magick to its 2e glory with a "bad stuff *cough*MRev*cough* happened, but it was overblown and went away and everything's back to normal now.").

I fully expect that if it hasn't been completely run into the ground by then, that V6 will be a return to form just as M20 was after MRev and D&D 5e was after 4E.

Nobby-W

  • Order of the Red Tabard
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
The RPG Site and White Wolf
« Reply #168 on: May 21, 2020, 10:03:18 am »
I am irrationally indifferent to While Wolf, with the exception of their masterpiece: Street Fighter.

White Wolf fanboys, on the other hand ...
My imaginary component makes me complex.  This also means I'm allowed to eat quiche.

AmazingOnionMan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • A
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
The RPG Site and White Wolf
« Reply #169 on: May 21, 2020, 11:36:03 am »
I don't know about anyone else, but after reading this thread WW will forever be the company which managed to produce furry nazi fanbois.

BoxCrayonTales

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • B
  • Posts: 1653
    • View Profile
The RPG Site and White Wolf
« Reply #170 on: May 21, 2020, 01:49:17 pm »
Quote from: Nobby-W;1130815
I am irrationally indifferent to While Wolf, with the exception of their masterpiece: Street Fighter.

White Wolf fanboys, on the other hand ...

Quote from: AmazingOnionMan;1130823
I don't know about anyone else, but after reading this thread WW will forever be the company which managed to produce furry nazi fanbois.

I try to keep my complaints focused on my creative disagreements with the setting and rules design, but eventually it's impossible not to criticize the attitudes of the company and the fandom.

Hence why I prefer to focus on constructive pursuits like world building the various fictional settings I want to play with.

AmazingOnionMan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • A
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
The RPG Site and White Wolf
« Reply #171 on: May 21, 2020, 03:45:52 pm »
This will probably pop a few veins around here, but I think VtM is a pretty good game. Conceptually at least, the execution leaves ..a bit to be desired.

BoxCrayonTales

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • B
  • Posts: 1653
    • View Profile
The RPG Site and White Wolf
« Reply #172 on: May 21, 2020, 04:34:54 pm »
Quote from: AmazingOnionMan;1130831
This will probably pop a few veins around here, but I think VtM is a pretty good game. Conceptually at least, the execution leaves ..a bit to be desired.

I don't disagree. On the other hand, the concept isn't original or unique. It's ripped straight from Interview with the Vampire and heavily influenced by the cyberpunk (in the form of humanity) and horror (in the form of trope reversal) tabletop games of the 80s. In fact, Nightlife did the same concept the year before.

As I have said many times already, if you want a game whose concept is "vampire struggling with their own humanity" and good execution, then your best bet is probably Feed. The way it describes character traits is story-game-y, I guess, but that is precisely what allows it to handle the transition between humanity and vampirism so well. It's also lacking in the pretension of WoD, as the writing goes out of its way to tell you that vampires are extremely flexible as a character type and providing many examples of settings and even fairly extensive research on vampire fiction. If nothing else, then Feed is useful for its research on the vampire fiction as a whole. I would even go so far as to say that Feed is what VTM should have been back in 1991. And it's easy enough to replicate the fluff of VTM if you still care about that.

Darrin Kelley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • D
  • Posts: 1020
    • View Profile
The RPG Site and White Wolf
« Reply #173 on: May 21, 2020, 05:44:03 pm »
The aspect of V5 I like is the Hunger mechanic. I feel it enhances and brings the whole experience of being a vampire to the fore. Where the blood pool really did not.

The cost of using blood points really had very little impact on a character. To the point that a vampire didn't really care what they were doing in spending those precious blood points. So I think that aspect of the prior four editions of was just broken. Because there was no significant price to be paid for using blood points.
 

BoxCrayonTales

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • B
  • Posts: 1653
    • View Profile
The RPG Site and White Wolf
« Reply #174 on: May 21, 2020, 06:04:39 pm »
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1130840
The aspect of V5 I like is the Hunger mechanic. I feel it enhances and brings the whole experience of being a vampire to the fore. Where the blood pool really did not.

The cost of using blood points really had very little impact on a character. To the point that a vampire didn't really care what they were doing in spending those precious blood points. So I think that aspect of the prior four editions of was just broken. Because there was no significant price to be paid for using blood points.

Agreed.

ShieldWife

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
    • View Profile
    • https://www.youtube.com/user/ShieldWife
The RPG Site and White Wolf
« Reply #175 on: May 21, 2020, 07:27:34 pm »
There are some V5 things that I like or that intrigue me.

I don't completely understand how it works, but I like the idea of a hunger mechanic too instead of just blood points. It sounds like it could be more engaging than just spending blood points. I like that Disciplines have multiple powers at the same level, that is a cool idea. I like the idea of Lasombra in the Camarilla. I like more focus on Anarchs even if I don't like the way they're doing it. It seems like they may have taken steps to fix some of my issues with aggravated damage too.

BoxCrayonTales

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • B
  • Posts: 1653
    • View Profile
The RPG Site and White Wolf
« Reply #176 on: May 21, 2020, 07:40:38 pm »
Quote from: ShieldWife;1130846
There are some V5 things that I like or that intrigue me.

I don't completely understand how it works, but I like the idea of a hunger mechanic too instead of just blood points. It sounds like it could be more engaging than just spending blood points. I like that Disciplines have multiple powers at the same level, that is a cool idea. I like the idea of Lasombra in the Camarilla. I like more focus on Anarchs even if I don't like the way they're doing it. It seems like they may have taken steps to fix some of my issues with aggravated damage too.


How familiar are you with CoD1e's mechanics? V5 takes a number of cues from CoD1e, but it's not identical.

ShieldWife

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
    • View Profile
    • https://www.youtube.com/user/ShieldWife
The RPG Site and White Wolf
« Reply #177 on: May 21, 2020, 07:49:11 pm »
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1130848
How familiar are you with CoD1e's mechanics? V5 takes a number of cues from CoD1e, but it's not identical.


Only a little bit. I'm never played Requiem, though I have played Mage. I've actually been looking at 2nd edition Requiem a little bit lately.

BoxCrayonTales

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • B
  • Posts: 1653
    • View Profile
The RPG Site and White Wolf
« Reply #178 on: May 21, 2020, 08:10:58 pm »
Quote from: ShieldWife;1130849
Only a little bit. I'm never played Requiem, though I have played Mage. I've actually been looking at 2nd edition Requiem a little bit lately.


Long story short, the tabletop market was going through a slump around the turn of the millennium. White Wolf released the third editions and eventually the CoD in attempts to boost sales. (That failed anyway and they got bought out.) CoD was originally intended to be vague remakes or reboots of the 1st edition WoD, with more mysterious settings and a focus on street-level play. The convoluted backstory of WoD was dropped in order to avoid intimidating newcomers. At least until the "dark eras" reversed that decision.

Honestly, the whole ordeal was pretty messy. It still is messy. Both WoD and CoD have their problems. Supporting them side-by-side doesn't do favors for anybody. I wish WW would have done something like D&D5e and released a universal rules system with information on running WoD, CoD, or a mix thereof. V5 already seemed to have gone in that direction, so I wouldn't be surprised if Paradox ordered CoD3e to be V5 compatible (or cancelled it).

You can probably imagine why I decided to abandon WW games entirely in favor of my own original settings.

Darrin Kelley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • D
  • Posts: 1020
    • View Profile
The RPG Site and White Wolf
« Reply #179 on: May 21, 2020, 08:27:43 pm »
Reboots never work. Not in novels, comics, or even movies. There is always a major portion of the audience left disenfranchised and unsatisfied. It's a no-win situation.