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Author Topic: The role of customer relations in the RPG industry - WotC vs Paizo  (Read 11874 times)

Settembrini

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The role of customer relations in the RPG industry - WotC vs Paizo
« Reply #75 on: October 17, 2009, 03:01:12 AM »
Quote from: Mistwell;338826
I too loved the later books from WOTC 3.5.  The crystals were great, as was the magic item compendium.  The Book of Nine Swords was great, though not playtested enough.  

And I agree with pretty much everything you've said.  I do think most of the biggest complainers were no longer WOTC customers before 4e even came out.

Hey fucktard, please continue ignoring everthing that was said & proven in this thread.
If there can't be a TPK against the will of the players it's not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

Settembrini

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The role of customer relations in the RPG industry - WotC vs Paizo
« Reply #76 on: October 17, 2009, 03:07:47 AM »
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck;338819
I don't see how deciding to not sell PDFs anymore is bad customer service to ANYONE, even the biggest single consumer of Wizards PDFs.


Hey fuckface! It´s because of YOU and folks like you that I can´t take 4e fans seriously. I´ll explain why, WotC-tardy:

People bought a product/ service. Within one day, without warning, that service discontinued. A service that people already had PAID for. This is a BIG difference from "not selling anymore". Obviously NOBODY ever said it was WotCs obligation to keep selling a given product.

So assmunch, I take it you know it and LIE ou of motives I can´t fathom. You are a bane to humanity and should stop posting now. Or you could repent.
If there can't be a TPK against the will of the players it's not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

JimLotFP

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The role of customer relations in the RPG industry - WotC vs Paizo
« Reply #77 on: October 17, 2009, 03:09:38 AM »
So if a company overhauls its product and a good number of customers decide to abandon ship because they are just not going to like the new version no matter what, that's got nothing to do with marketing? What category does that fall under then, just general bad business policy?

I suppose New Coke was not an example of bad marketing, because the people who refused to buy it and caused the uproar were never going to accept the new product no matter how it tasted?

Settembrini

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The role of customer relations in the RPG industry - WotC vs Paizo
« Reply #78 on: October 17, 2009, 03:16:58 AM »
As I said up-thread, if marketing is thought to be ineffective ANYWAY, then it has no point and Scott Rouse´s salary was waisted money.
If there can't be a TPK against the will of the players it's not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

Windjammer

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The role of customer relations in the RPG industry - WotC vs Paizo
« Reply #79 on: October 17, 2009, 08:48:08 AM »
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;338683
If you actually used the 3.5 combat system, it is indeed a refinement and the game is largely the same. Maybe most people don't agree with that..

Well, I think your quote documents very well where the line of disagreement runs. You start out from a (to me) sound observation about the combat system and end up talking about the game at large (which strikes me as quite a leap). But 3.5 was a much larger game than (what I'd call) the combat engine, and for certain people the attraction the system held was due to those further parts. Some of those parts were completely eradicated in 4E (labeled as "unfun", "session stoppers", or detrimental to the "core story" of the game), others were simplified beyond recognition (e.g. the magic item creation subsystem).

Finally, I wouldn't consider 4E to be "largely the same game" as earlier editions if we extend the comparison farther back than 3.0. The whole point of 3rd edition was to keep a high number of core elements of AD&D in tact, and introduce a couple of new features (such as feats and prestige classes). It was an amalgan of the old and the new. To me, 4E refined the new bits - successfully, for the greater part - but threw away the old ones, mostly. The result is a refinement of a subset of 3.5 at best. If you liked that subset most about 3.5 to begin with, 4E would truly be a "refinement" to your game. Otherwise you'd be out of luck and you'd be looking at a game that was a disfigured, incomplete shadow of all you love about D&D.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 08:50:22 AM by Windjammer »
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Abyssal Maw

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The role of customer relations in the RPG industry - WotC vs Paizo
« Reply #80 on: October 17, 2009, 09:10:29 AM »
Quote from: JimLotFP;338862
So if a company overhauls its product and a good number of customers decide to abandon ship because they are just not going to like the new version no matter what, that's got nothing to do with marketing? What category does that fall under then, just general bad business policy?


If the market doesn't accept it, it's a bad decision. If the market does accept it, it's a good decision.

For the most part, WOTC alienated people who were buying C&C, True20, and "nothing from WoTC" so the effect was somewhere between negligible and "positive" since it did seem to have attracted some younger players.

I know the last thing this hobby needs is a bunch of kids playing, but there ya go.
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RPGObjects_chuck

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The role of customer relations in the RPG industry - WotC vs Paizo
« Reply #81 on: October 17, 2009, 10:17:27 AM »
Quote from: JasperAK;338827
What?

I'm not trying to argue false dichotomies, but how then would you define good customer service? I think your informed and well-reasoned opinion will be quite telling in this respect.


I think some people have this idea that the customer is ALWAYS right and that if a retailer doesn't roll over and say yes to every demand, that they are not getting good customer service.

I've had people demand something be taken back by a retailer well after the return date fill out comment cards and slam CS representatives, at a retailer that took such things very seriously, just because they were given the right answer, which was "no".

I'd place the idea that Wizards declining to sell something anymore, for reasons they feel make sense in the current business climate for them in this category.

So- not selling 3rd edition, not selling Dragon and Dungeon as physical magazines, and not selling PDFs are most definitely not bad customer service.

They're just Wizards doing what they think is best for their business right now and discontinuing a product line.

You have every right to be unhappy about it. You have every right to feel its a dumb decision on their part.

But Wizards telling you something you don't want to hear is not bad CR.

As for what IS good customer service, its doing everything you reasonably can to make the customer experience a good one, being friendly, keeping the store clean, making the shopping experience an "all ages" environment for any kind of mainstream retail, having a professional staff etc.

RPGObjects_chuck

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The role of customer relations in the RPG industry - WotC vs Paizo
« Reply #82 on: October 17, 2009, 10:22:00 AM »
Quote from: Settembrini;338861
Hey fuckface! It´s because of YOU and folks like you that I can´t take 4e fans seriously. I´ll explain why, WotC-tardy:

People bought a product/ service. Within one day, without warning, that service discontinued. A service that people already had PAID for. This is a BIG difference from "not selling anymore". Obviously NOBODY ever said it was WotCs obligation to keep selling a given product.

So assmunch, I take it you know it and LIE ou of motives I can´t fathom. You are a bane to humanity and should stop posting now. Or you could repent.


Ok...

1. Fuck you.

2. I am most definitely not a 4e fan or a Wizards fan dumbass. I am currently writing an OSRIC module and hanging out at the K&K Alehouse and here online.

Does that sound like a 4e fanboy to you?

3. Fuck you. If you want to have a conversation, that's fine. If you want to yell at me when you clearly don't know the first thing about me, then fuck off and die.

4. What product is that? PDFs? How the hell is a PDF a "service"? You buy it, you download it, you're done. The transaction is over. It's as much a "service" as a candy bar.

Same with a magazine. If you had a subscription, and they refund the outstanding balance, you're done. They don't owe you shit.

Same with a game edition. When a company decides to move on, the "service" has been discontinued.

So I don't really know which "service" you could be referring to, because I don't think Wizards sells "services", they sell "products".

5. Oh yeah, fuck you.

imaro

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The role of customer relations in the RPG industry - WotC vs Paizo
« Reply #83 on: October 17, 2009, 12:19:39 PM »
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;338895
If the market doesn't accept it, it's a bad decision. If the market does accept it, it's a good decision.

For the most part, WOTC alienated people who were buying C&C, True20, and "nothing from WoTC" so the effect was somewhere between negligible and "positive" since it did seem to have attracted some younger players.

I know the last thing this hobby needs is a bunch of kids playing, but there ya go.


Huh?  So you're claiming the majority of people alienated by WoTC's PR for 4e were those playing totally seperate OGL games?  Not buying it.  

I find it far more likely that the majority of people alienated by such things were playing  3.x... and thus still potential WotC customers.

Seanchai
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The role of customer relations in the RPG industry - WotC vs Paizo
« Reply #84 on: October 17, 2009, 12:45:13 PM »
Quote from: JimLotFP;338862
So if a company overhauls its product and a good number of customers decide to abandon ship because they are just not going to like the new version no matter what, that's got nothing to do with marketing?


No. I could market the hell out of shit pies, but if no one buys them because they're made of shit, that has nothing to do with marketing.

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Seanchai
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The role of customer relations in the RPG industry - WotC vs Paizo
« Reply #85 on: October 17, 2009, 12:45:58 PM »
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck;338819
I don't see how deciding to not sell PDFs anymore is bad customer service to ANYONE, even the biggest single consumer of Wizards PDFs.


As I said, I agree. But many others don't.

Seanchai
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The role of customer relations in the RPG industry - WotC vs Paizo
« Reply #86 on: October 17, 2009, 01:03:33 PM »
Quote from: JasperAK;338767
Defining perceptions is the whole point of marketing and public relations.


Yes, but whether or not those efforts succeed depend on the subjective view of the individual.

Quote from: JasperAK;338767
That line is tangentially related to my earlier point in another thread about WOTC being the 800lb gorilla. If they are too big to give me the service I can get from Necromancer, Kenzer Co., Troll Lord, Green Ronin, Creative Mountain, Goodman Games, Pinnacle, or Paizo then fuck them; I don't need them. There are plenty of other companies that can earn my gaming dollar by better providing the service I desire.


You're not necessarily getting or not getting service based on size, however.

Quote from: JasperAK;338767
Their PR totally failed to justify their actions to me.


How on earth could their PR justify something to you? They can explain something and try to persuade you, but justify? Whether or not something is justified or not would vary by individual.

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JimLotFP

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The role of customer relations in the RPG industry - WotC vs Paizo
« Reply #87 on: October 17, 2009, 01:36:54 PM »
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;338895
For the most part, WOTC alienated people who were buying C&C, True20, and "nothing from WoTC"


Funny that role-players that are playing and spending money on not-WOTC versions of D&D would be considered "lost customers." I figure they'd be much easier to gain as customers than totally new gamers... with the right product and marketing, of course.

DeadUematsu

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The role of customer relations in the RPG industry - WotC vs Paizo
« Reply #88 on: October 17, 2009, 01:39:06 PM »
If I were WotC, I would rather have new gamers.
 

JimLotFP

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The role of customer relations in the RPG industry - WotC vs Paizo
« Reply #89 on: October 17, 2009, 01:43:10 PM »
Quote from: DeadUematsu;338951
If I were WotC, I would rather have new gamers.


If I were WOTC, I'd rather have both, and with their resources that should have been possible.