Quote from: Christmas ApeThe biggest, most popular, most successful roleplaying game in the world is not only in constant and very real danger of being gutted into financial ruin by Swine games*, which are doomed to forever be insignificant failures because no-one plays them, but that only his constant vigilance and vitriolic quasi-informed rants to his loyal army of two dozen prevent this. Not being popular, not being a good game, not providing fun to kids with disposable income, imagination, and time to kill; only by his sheer strength of will can the industry leader (by, like, orders of magnitude) be kept from being ground under the heel of small-press games with 200 sold copies to their name and a company staff of four.

Goddamn it, man. This shit is too big to fit in my sig file.

-Andy

Quote from: Christmas ApeOh man, his opression is new to you? This shit is way funny when you come to realize that Pundit dwells in a world in which...wait for it....

The biggest, most popular, most successful roleplaying game in the world is not only in constant and very real danger of being gutted into financial ruin by Swine games*, which are doomed to forever be insignificant failures because no-one plays them, but that only his constant vigilance and vitriolic quasi-informed rants to his loyal army of two dozen prevent this. Not being popular, not being a good game, not providing fun to kids with disposable income, imagination, and time to kill; only by his sheer strength of will can the industry leader (by, like, orders of magnitude) be kept from being ground under the heel of small-press games with 200 sold copies to their name and a company staff of four.

* Read: games he doesn't like, or are liked by people who managed to not get banned from the Big Purple.

Oh, nothing new It's just that I hadn't realized that the Pundit could get so gothy and angsty about that. I've pointed in other chances the lunacy of his position, and he answered that the Swine was a blip, but they dominated the Internet debate.

Except that.., they don't. Most game boards have the bigger part of them devoted to discussing D&D and many mainstream games. Mainstream games are not under a threat in the market, and are not threatened on Internet.

Actually, I'm growing more and more convinced that Edwards and the Pundit are like Jekyll and Hyde. Both hate Vampire with a passion, have had bad experiences with gamers, and have developed a distorted vision of the gaming hobby. I'm sure that they're soulmates or something like that.

Quote from: ImperatorActually, I'm growing more and more convinced that Edwards and the Pundit are like Jekyll and Hyde. Both hate Vampire with a passion, have had bad experiences with gamers, and have developed a distorted vision of the gaming hobby. I'm sure that they're soulmates or something like that.

Side comment:  For those who know the game:  Breaking the Ice.  I'm just sayin'.

Quote from: TonyLBSide comment:  For those who know the game:  Breaking the Ice.  I'm just sayin'.

That session would no doubt prove entertaining to watch, at any rate.

Quote from: ImperatorActually, I'm growing more and more convinced that Edwards and the Pundit are like Jekyll and Hyde. Both hate Vampire with a passion, have had bad experiences with gamers, and have developed a distorted vision of the gaming hobby. I'm sure that they're soulmates or something like that.

But have you ever seen them in the same room together?

Quote from: Christmas ApeThe biggest, most popular, most successful roleplaying game in the world is not only in constant and very real danger of being gutted into financial ruin by Swine games*,

As opposed to, say, a corporate strategy of plunging all their spare money into publishing more paperback novelisations, the profits of which go into publishing more novelisations, and so on and so on...

Actually, the end of TSR kind of disproves Pundit's fear by itself - the company producing the world's biggest and most successful RPG managed to make itself bankrupt (due mainly to their spin-off activities like the novel series rather than any poor performance on D&D's part), and then almost instantly got saved by another big company, who proceeded to make a big deal of money out of D&D once more. D&D makes enough money that there will always be game companies willing to publish it.

Quote from: Christmas ApeBut have you ever seen them in the same room together?

Only Jong could tell. He is the only one here that has seen Edwards (in the interview with Settembrini) and Pundit... But I bet he's keeping it to himself

QuoteAs opposed to, say, a corporate strategy of plunging all their spare money into publishing more paperback novelisations, the profits of which go into publishing more novelisations, and so on and so on...

Actually, the end of TSR kind of disproves Pundit's fear by itself - the company producing the world's biggest and most successful RPG managed to make itself bankrupt (due mainly to their spin-off activities like the novel series rather than any poor performance on D&D's part), and then almost instantly got saved by another big company, who proceeded to make a big deal of money out of D&D once more. D&D makes enough money that there will always be game companies willing to publish it.

An interesting aside...

Marvel Comics and DC Comics, both without doubt the biggest and most successful comic companies in North America -- run their actual comic publishing businesses at a loss.  They make their money on the related merchandizing and film deals.  The actual comic publishing division is more like Research & Development.

WotC is unquestionably running a better business with D&D than TSR did... but I couldn't tell you to what extent WotC and the actual earnings from sales of RPG books plays a role in the overall finances of all revenue streams across everything under the Hasbro umbrella.  Keep in mind that Parker Brothers, Milton Bradley and Avalon Hill are all subsidiaries of Hasbro as well.

Quote from: StuartWotC is unquestionably running a better business with D&D than TSR did... but I couldn't tell you to what extent WotC and the actual earnings from sales of RPG books plays a role in the overall finances of all revenue streams across everything under the Hasbro umbrella.  Keep in mind that Parker Brothers, Milton Bradley and Avalon Hill are all subsidiaries of Hasbro as well.

Yeah, if there is a danger to D&D it's that Hasbro will decide it is not making enough money, or that the licencing rights aren't making enough, and they'll cancel it but not release the intellectual property to anyone (witness the fiasco with Runequest).

That said, the fact that it does seem to MAKE money (under TSR the core game line was one of their few profitable products), and that the novels are selling as well as they ever were are good signs (especially now that the novelisations are being published on a more sustainable basis).

And the bottom line is that no other roleplaying game is really in a position to impact D&D profits enough for Hasbro to notice, never mind act on. The World of Darkness didn't manage it, and the Forge games certainly aren't.

QuoteYeah, if there is a danger to D&D it's that Hasbro will decide it is not making enough money, or that the licencing rights aren't making enough, and they'll cancel it but not release the intellectual property to anyone (witness the fiasco with Runequest).

They don't have to cancel it.  Just squeeze it.

God help me I've just waded through 10 pages of this idiotic bullshit.  "Dude, why are you posting then?"  Because I just waded through 10 pages of this shit, and I'm damned well going to get something out of it.  This post will suffice.

Quote from: RPGPunditHmm, yup.. that's a "no" alright.
So what's the fucking point if the only thing you're really doing is avoiding mouthing the sound of the letters "n" & "o", but in practice are doing the exact same thing?

You're really trying to argue THAT was the purpose of the law? To say "You shouldn't say no to the players, but you can say a thousand different things that essentially MEAN no anyways"? Its like someone else put it, you're just saying "roll a d6" when you know the "difficulty" is 7.

I have not read Nobilis, nor do I know Ms. Borgstrom from Adam.  Never heard of her.  But based solely on what I've read in this thread, this 'Monarda Law' in essense appears to say nothing more than the DMG has been saying all along.  
Basically that is the PCs declare their wish to attempt something, don't tell them no unless it's just stupid.  
Case in point, if the party Rogue wants to attempt to jump off the balcony, catch the chandelier, swing across the room, and deliver a flying kick to Duke Crustypants' face then you tell him how hard that's going to be to TRY.  If the party rogue wants to attempt to float 1' above the balcony floor in a firey nimbus of energy and blast Duke Crustypants' with his super-vision, then you (assuming you're playing a somewhat typical fantasy game) give him a look like he just joked about pissing on your bookshelf and ask him what he really wants to do.
Whether this is telling the Player No, Maybe, or 'Stop fucking around and play right, dickhead' is irrelevant.

RE: This "Moron Law":
I could be misinterpreting here, but this reeks of DM behavior that typically leads to the players coming to the group consensus that if they want to do or get something, they don't tell the DM ahead of time.  
Player 1: "Dude, my Fighter/Cavalier is going to try to get ahold of that abandoned Keep we cleared out two weeks ago.  I just need to save up enough gold to pay the Duke off for the land it's on"  
Player 2: "Sweet.  Don't tell the DM or that idea's shot"
I've played in those types of games, and they suck ass.  Legitimately challenging the PCs is good, dicking them over and only letting them have what they can take with the price of buckets of blood and piles of dead comrades sucks.

RE: The "War":
Is tripe.  Know where you're going online and understand whose there.  Just like I don't wander into gay bars and begin to demand that any female there who isn't drooling for my He-Pole is a stupid fucktard, I don't go to the Forge and demand they play D20 (I don't go there at all, but that's irrelevant to the point) anymore than I expect them to go to EN World and start bad-mouthing D20.
RPGNet's a special case.  And by special I mean "short bus" special.  That place is just full of fucktards.  Again, know where you're going.

I agree with Settembrini's defense.

First of all, step back and remember, in the end, we're only really talking about gaming. Or to be more precise- we are talking about talking about gaming.

I do believe that a cultural war is going on, exactly as described by Settembrini. Otherwise Andy K and TonyLB wouldn't even be here at this site. In general they are here to put out fires and represent their side. Just read Andy's sig quote. He knows very well that he's at war.

This war has been going on for a while and has been for the most part unacknowledged, chiefly because the mainstream doesn't know about it and doesn't care. In most ways it can't be affected anyhow- the most ambitious and obnoxious of the forgies are utterly lacking talent and do not genuinely care much for the hobby in any case. The real goal is celebrity. That's all it has ever been about. It's not about the gaming or the games.

It's important to point out: nearly as soon as this war was acknowledged, the swine started to lose. Nearly as soon as we could definitively point out the 'braindamage link', it started to be over. Swine blather is ultimately more destructive to swine than it is to anyone else. You just have to link to it, bring some focus and context, and show it to the public. The swine can respond by either moderating their obnoxiousness or keeping it behind closed gates. Either way, we mainstreamers have nothing to sell (and thus nothing to lose) in this fight. We're civilians.

The 'Indie Gaming Scene blog' pretty much marked the end of their era.

This was, I think, classic- all that time they spent to portray the pundit as a scary crazy stupid angry guy who could only speak in capital letters, and then he basicly pulls off the most brilliant and subtly humiliating parody I've seen in years. Heck, Tony was confused for the first day or so whether it was even really making fun of his side.  

So now we have people pretending to be outraged over foul language and the dissing of Nobilis? Come on. I'm not even taking this seriously. We're just talking about gaming.  

Many of you are really here to fight public relations fires and you can be confident you won't get banned for saying anything you like.

Well put, Maw.  They aren't fooling anyone.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Abyssal MawMany of you are really here to fight public relations fires and you can be confident you won't get banned for saying anything you like.

So, tell me, Abyssal, why am I here?

To be blunt... and I've made my feelings about Noblis pretty plain in this thread already:

Calling a game ass is fine and dandy. Calling the game designer, whom you've never met in person, a Moron and defending loudly over THREE FUCKING THREADS that YOU created.... well, in this one, Pundit, you look to be the one with egg on your face.

To be honest, I don't think much of Borgstrom's talents as a game designer. I don't think much of her writing.  I'll bite that she's obviously creative.  But I've never met her, not even online really, and I'd be extremely hesitant to claim anything about her personage... so unless you can bring up shit she's said 'in person'... via the internet... that backs up your diatribes about her personal character I think you've gone a few steps over the line. You've gone from rabid punditry to general bitchy. Not a good career move.