Quote from: Christopher KubasikI "get" the parody to the degree that Michael Savage can broadcast to his 8 million listeners that homosexuals have declared war on religion, and "make no mistake folks, they want to stop religion in this country." Sure, it's a statement, and sure, it plays into the anger of people who like being defensive and angry. But does Savage's statement have anything to do with homosexuals as a group? You, know... reality?

I have nothing to add to this except this is straight out of that argument playbook I was talking about earlier.

It kinda goes like this: "Well, I don't know about X but here's a completely irrelevant reference to a political guy who hates gays.."

Geez. If I had a nickel for every time. And it's always someone from the Forge too. Go figure.

As for the rest, I dunno. I think you misunderstand what this really is. No, it isn't people being upset at other people's preferences. That is not the conflict. At all. Seriously. Levi came a lot closer when he described his hypothetical 'Joe-in-search of a community'. The conflict is over the discourse.  In many ways the conversation we are having (this one, right now) is the real battle. This has nothing to do with games or "diversity" or anything like that.

I'll break it down for you.

1) In the last few years: until fairly recently, much of the dicourse in this community (and by community I am talking about the entire RPG-discussion-sphere, not just this website, but.. all of it) has been characterized by a certain school of thought. Maybe not 'most', but a significant amount.

2) As time wore on, this school of thought became increasingly bold about it's pronouncements: who has brain-damage, who is dysfunctional, etcetera. The pronouncements were often insulting and lacking in merit.

Now- the fact that these same guys were also creating games? Totally coincidental. Forget about that part for the moment. The conflict is not over the games. Nor is it over the "diversity" or the "preferences".

3) Because of editorial policies in the major arteries of discussion, direct redressal was impossible.

4) Eventually someone spoke up. Or rather- in the most Walt Whitmanesque terms: Pundit sounded his "barbaric YAWP over the roofs of the world."

And now YOU guys are coming over to redress us! Often poorly or clumsily. But still, I like the effort.

This is why even the most excessive thing the Pundit says is acceptable to me. As much as I love to screw with you guys (and make no mistake, I am screwing with you guys and pretty much enjoying it), I think it's important to have this confrontation on our terms, in a place with no censorship. I think we've already been hugely successful at burying some of the BS that popped up over the last few years. We even have people trying to straddle the communities to come to terms with both sides. We're a wretched hive of scum and villiany, sure. But we stand for freedom and fairness, too.

And sure there's still a few cranky, humorless, and barely-talented guys who cling to the world of 2004-2005 where they all smarmily agree about how we're all dysfunctional and brain damaged until we try out the right game. But those guys are defeated now, and they know it.


As for the Earthdawn novels, I read three of them!

a) I enjoyed them!
b) They're terrible!

Quote from: Abyssal MawI have nothing to add to this except this is straight out of that argument playbook I was talking about earlier.

It kinda goes like this: "Well, I don't know about X but here's a completely irrelevant reference to a political guy who hates gays.."

To be fair, a lot of the time the Pundit's diatribes - especially when he's talking generally, rather than criticising a particular game (which he's normally pretty good at) - could be turned into entirely something else if you, for example, read "the Forge" as "gay people" and "storytelling" as "homosexuality". He has said on this very forum that he finds what story gamers do disgusting and want them to go away and not intrude on the internet RPG community, just as many homophobic politicians these day talk about how they don't hate gays, they would just prefer it if they shut up and went away and didn't get involved in political discussion...

I'm not seriously accusing the Pundit of being homophobic - and anyone who is seriously accusing him of that is being ridiculous. I'm just saying that he tends to use rhetorical tactics often associated with homophobes and Klansmen.

In other words he's reactionnary.

News at 11.

NO. Absolutely not. I don't buy this at all.

Amongst other things, your'e actually making real racism more excusable.

"A man was lynched! Several minorities were arrested and harassed.. And it was (sob!) just like that one time when Pundit was mean about Rebecca Borgstrom!"

That does not fly.

And just as easily as you could recapture the Forge as "gay people" and "storytelling" as "homosexuality", you could repurpose it and say the Forge as "Nazis" and Storytelling as "pedophilia" (which would make it ok to attack?)

No. Bullshit. Let things stand for exactly what they are.

Quote from: Christopher KubasikActually, no one "sent me over..." I don't know what that even means. You say you're not really part of a war, and yet you use language that suggests partisans are being air dropped in.

I showed up following a link. I then realized someone had quoted a post of mine from another site at this site. I decided to check it out....

And found that RPGPundit holding forth on a wide range of issues on which he seems to have no actal experience and prattling on about matters of war.

I would say this is all about gaming. When he misrepresent rules, techniques and points of view all bearing on games, then it's about gaming. And he does. Relentlessly.

I'm amazed the man's defensive and childish rages have boiled over so fiercely in the last week. He's really only left with two camps now: those who say, "Dude, you're kind of wierd," and those who say, "I, too, am obsessed with what other think about me! Please we have to beat back those mean people who look down on us!"

I'm not "representing" anything except, perhaps, clear thinking. Or, rather, I'm an enemy of murky thinking.

I "get" the parody to the degree that Michael Savage can broadcast to his 8 million listeners that homosexuals have declared war on religion, and "make no mistake folks, they want to stop religion in this country." Sure, it's a statement, and sure, it plays into the anger of people who like being defensive and angry. But does Savage's statement have anything to do with homosexuals as a group? You, know... reality?

Of course not.

And in the same way, RPGPundits rants, where he kicks ass and takes no names. They are as removed from reality (actual games, actual content of people's thoughts and imagination) as Michael Savages idiocy.

As for the novels, some folks loved 'em, some folks hated 'em. That's life. A grown up knows that. Unfortunantly, there are some people (like Christian fundementalists, left-wing nutjobs, and RPGPundit's little crew) driven insane by the fact there are people who are different than them -- different tastes, different desires -- and drive themselves into frenzies figuring out how to wipe out the "enemy."

Whatever.

Is there a "clash" or a "conflict" or a "war" -- of course not. There are differences. They are just out there. The same way some people like to see a romantic comedy when they go to the movies, and others really want to see SAW III. Or David Lynch movies. Or whatever.

According to PunditThink, people who have different taste in movies should be railing at either, making it clear that what those "other" people like aren't "really" movies. Everyone Horror movies made is one less Romantic Comedy made, and that's a bad thing... and so on.

Which strikes me as absurd. But I can't really claim to understand the logic of those around here, so maybe they're nodding their heads going, "Exactly, yes...!"

If there's conflict it's not about games. There are plenty of people and plenty of games, and people are going to play what they want.

The conflict is about either being the kind of person who enjoys the fact that with seven billion human beings on the planet there's going to be a lot of variety about what is made and enjoyed, and people who are freaked out by that fact.

That's the conflict. And it's not even a war. Because people like me, who love the variety of life look at someone like RPGPundit and say, "Oh, look, another pretty little flower I never saw before." He's not my "enemy." He's just one more example of the strangeness of human life.

Dude, you're hilarious. You come here to say that the Forgeites aren't trying to evangelize or fight a war, and then write this lengthy essay that is basically one long bombing run...

..wait, you aren't the same stupid fucktard who compared the Forge to the Beat Poet movement, are you??

RPGPundit

Quote from: Abyssal MawThis is why even the most excessive thing the Pundit says is acceptable to me. As much as I love to screw with you guys (and make no mistake, I am screwing with you guys and pretty much enjoying it), I think it's important to have this confrontation on our terms, in a place with no censorship. I think we've already been hugely successful at burying some of the BS that popped up over the last few years. We even have people trying to straddle the communities to come to terms with both sides. We're a wretched hive of scum and villiany, sure. But we stand for freedom and fairness, too.

Yes, well, that's the main difference between them and us.  Their sites have to censor us, because all they've got to base their arguments on are delusions and lies.
We have the truth, so they can come here and bark all the like like the dogs they are, and they'll still be defeated. We're not scared of them the way they're scared of us.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Abyssal MawAnd just as easily as you could recapture the Forge as "gay people" and "storytelling" as "homosexuality", you could repurpose it and say the Forge as "Nazis" and Storytelling as "pedophilia" (which would make it ok to attack?)

Yup.  I like hyperbole as a rhetorical tool as much as the next guy, maybe a little more. But I've got nothing on these fuckers.  Of course, when you're going in unarmed to a battle of wits, personal slander is pretty well the only weapon you've got going for you.

RPGPundit

Honestly, Pundit: I actually disagree with you about Borgstrom, or at least I see it as just harmless foolishness of the usual game designer sort.

But man, if that's the honey that brings these guys in to the trap, then I say play on!

QuoteBut man, if that's the honey that brings these guys in to the trap, then I say play on!

You surely get banned for critisizing her writings on theOthersite...something must have made their alarm bells ring.

Quote from: RPGPunditWe have the truth, so they can come here and bark all the like like the dogs they are, and they'll still be defeated. We're not scared of them the way they're scared of us.

..........

Actually, I'm gonna pause in the poking-wise here.

Pundit, the reason I've been cracking wise at your rhetoric here is because, well, the hyperbole you're using is overblown in the extreme.

I'm happy to attack dumbass jargon, to piss on it as offensive and stupid.  Because it gets in the way of actual communication.

I see your current line of rhetoric as doing the same thing.

So, yeah.  Back to the poking-wise.

..........

Wanna lead a rousing chorus of We shall overcome?

Quote from: RPGPunditOf course, when you're going in unarmed to a battle of wits, personal slander is pretty well the only weapon you've got going for you.

Very true.

Quote from: Christmas ApeI actually feel like I know too much English to make sense of Abyssal's screed here. Someone want to translate it into a functional version? I'm curious what it's barking about.

Am I the only one who is hearing the above quote in Cornell's voice?

QuoteI'm amazed the man's defensive and childish rages have boiled over so fiercely in the last week. He's really only left with two camps now: those who say, "Dude, you're kind of wierd," and those who say, "I, too, am obsessed with what other think about me! Please we have to beat back those mean people who look down on us!"

I have a theory that he injured his hand on his vacation and can no longer masturbate satisfactorily. So until he's healed up the level of mental whacking off he does will increase dramatically.

Quote from: James McMurrayI have a theory that he injured his hand on his vacation and can no longer masturbate satisfactorily. So until he's healed up the level of mental whacking off he does will increase dramatically.

You're just another damned wanker theorist.

I knew it.

Quote from: James McMurrayI have a theory that he injured his hand on his vacation and can no longer masturbate satisfactorily. So until he's healed up the level of mental whacking off he does will increase dramatically.

I'd go with this theory

Anyway, is not like what we do here really was of the utmost importance. To the industry as a whole, and to the gamers as a whole, Internet is irrelevant and nonexistant. Whenever the Pundit starts with the colossal wankery about how The Army of Inmortals Shall Overcome The Enemies of Truth (when Pundit wouldn't recognize the Truth if it bited him in the face),... I start hearing a long, neverending song of Manowar in my head. Frankly, I'm sure that the Pundit and Manowar use the same speech writer