QuoteNice find.

Keep digging. Where did I go and rant, and what did I say, to whom?

I remembered seeing a lot of Andy's links to the Pundit in the Links to Gaming Discussion category... but that thread was the only one that came up with a search on the keyword "Evangelize".  

Actually, that was your comment about joining forums: "Getting involved strictly to evangelize is bad"... so I hardly thought you seemed RANTY in that thread.

Again, I think a community approach to promoting your games is a smart thing to do, and beneficial to the members of the community.  However, to flat out deny people have any association with each other, and that there's never any PR type efforts... well, that's not quite Cricket, is it old chap?

Quote from: GrimGentYes: it's a piece of advice for novice GMs. When you get right down to it, Nob isn't really all that different from D&D.

:killingme:

Yes, Nobilis is just like D&D... just like the "Piss Christ" is identical to the Sistine Chapel, or New Kids On the Block are identical to Led Zeppelin.

:killingme:

RPGPundit

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen"Make the characters bleed.  Hard.  Usually say no."

That's the mainstream, now?

Yup. I know its shocking to the "new education" types that think Little Billy should get his blue ribbon even if he can't eat with a fork without doing himself an injury, but hardship builds character; not unearned reward. Most normal people, and most normal gamers, know this.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Levi KornelsenThat's PR work?

You're a living breathing piece of PR work, Levi. You're the Colin Powell of the Forge set. We all know that.

Its like the Republicans, when they want to "prove" they aren't racist, haul out Colin Powell or one of a tiny handful of other tokens, wave him around, and loudly shout "See? A Negroe! We ain't redneck klansmen!! We got no problem with old Colin, cause he ain't all uppity!".

You're the same thing. Anytime the Forgeites want to try to appear to not be Batshit insane, they haul you out, use you as the example, let you do the talking.  You're their token "Sane person".

RPGPundit

Quote from: StuartAgain, I think a community approach to promoting your games is a smart thing to do, and beneficial to the members of the community.  However, to flat out deny people have any association with each other, and that there's never any PR type efforts... well, that's not quite Cricket, is it old chap?

Well, there's two sides to that.

If you look and say "Well, yeah, folks go out onto message boards and post, and in posting they reflect upon their community ... by posting reasonably, and correcting misconceptions they create good PR as an effect," I don't think anybody's going to disagree with you.  Yes, being reasonable people is a terrific 'selling point'.

If, however, you look at that and say "They're only being reasonable in order to generate good PR" then I think you've stretched the argument from observable effects to presumed intentions, and I think that's a step too far.  Even when people consider the effects of their actions on PR it doesn't mean that they're motivated by PR first and foremost.

It looks to me like you're asserting the first, and Levi is disagreeing with the second.  Does that sound right?

Quote from: StuartI remembered seeing a lot of Andy's links to the Pundit in the Links to Gaming Discussion category... but that thread was the only one that came up with a search on the keyword "Evangelize".  

Fascinating. A private thread where they post links to sites and people who they need to go and argue against, conversations they need to disrupt, etc.

Of course, if anyone ever went on Storygames or the Forge to do that, they'd be called trolls and threadcrappers. Which they would be.

As are some people here, it seems.

RPGPundit

My rant was on RPGnet.  Trust me, it was ranty.

Quote from: StuartHowever, to flat out deny people have any association with each other, and that there's never any PR type efforts... well, that's not quite Cricket, is it old chap?

I'm trying to stretch my definition of "PR" to match what you're saying, and I think I've got it.

So, you've got a bunch of people that know each other a bit.  Now, someone they know has said something asinine.

And they're being shit on as if they were a completely unified group, guilt-by-association style.

They talk about how this is exasperating, and about their reactions to it.  And a number of them, individually, go out and try to put a hold on that process.

By doing so, they're doing PR work.

Got it.

Sorry, no.  Nobody here is doing PR work.  Because, see, even the people on "the other side" aren't organized.  They're just people.  It's not a "smear campaign" when somebody decides to scream "BRAIN DAMAGE" in the middle of a thread about something else, either; it's just somebody being an asshole.

Elevating this shit to the standard of pretending it's a culture war is melodrama; it's an attempt at trying to draw lines in the sand that do not, in reality, exist.

Quote from:  RPGPunditHer character is that of a pretentious twat. Just go look at her Blog if you don't believe me.

If this is Rebecca's blog I found it no more pretentious that so many other author's blogs.  

I've seen no evidence that she deserves any of the recent hostility...

:confused:

Quote from: RPGPunditYou're a living breathing piece of PR work, Levi. You're the Colin Powell of the Forge set. We all know that.

That's terrifically interesting.

Show me an example of someone hauling me out.

Except you know as well as I do that there are people (not you, Levi, but many others) who try to maintain an air of "civility" in one forum, and mock and deride those they claim to be willing to co-exist with in others.

They have a hidden and secret contempt. Which makes them pretty fucking contemptible in my book.  And frankly, their patronizing tone and their lies don't fool anyone.

You know and I know that, deep down, MOST of the Forge crowd really believe that they ARE superior to the "common unwashed masses" who play D20.

So their efforts to claim that they're just "doing their own thing", and really believe that their shit isn't more intelligent, more "artistic" and less smelly than ours is highly dishonest. Even more dishonest when they try to claim with a straight face that no one on their side believes those things, or that mainstream gamers complaints about them are totally unfounded.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYou know and I know that, deep down, MOST of the Forge crowd really believe that they ARE superior to the "common unwashed masses" who play D20.

I know that deep down, most human beings really believe that they are superior to the common unwashed masses.

Full stop.  No sides are required.

Quote from: StuartIf this is Rebecca's blog I found it no more pretentious that so many other author's blogs.  

:confused:

Ahem.

Quote“You project onto me,” says the great heap to Tara, “the failings of the world.”

Sid is watching.

It is the strangest thing. He cannot help but feel: what a horrible, horrible thing.

And a burning sympathy for it, as it lurches on.

“Do I?” Tara says.

“Do I prey?” says the heap. The fight begins—a fight that we shall describe momentarily; for now, let us say, a shifting, a blurring, a great movement like the wind. “Am I a devourer of wastes? A cold, hard, compassionless thing, who closes the door on the suffering of children and keeps every creature from enlightenment?”

And I cut and pasted that AT RANDOM.

Quote from: StuartIf this is Rebecca's blog I found it no more pretentious that so many other author's blogs.

That's the one. It can be pretty hilarious at times. Just check out her take on the Care Bears in "Rainbow Noir".

Quote from: TonyLBIf you look and say "Well, yeah, folks go out onto message boards and post, and in posting they reflect upon their community ... by posting reasonably, and correcting misconceptions they create good PR as an effect," I don't think anybody's going to disagree with you. Yes, being reasonable people is a terrific 'selling point'.

If, however, you look at that and say "They're only being reasonable in order to generate good PR" then I think you've stretched the argument from observable effects to presumed intentions, and I think that's a step too far. Even when people consider the effects of their actions on PR it doesn't mean that they're motivated by PR first and foremost.

It looks to me like you're asserting the first, and Levi is disagreeing with the second. Does that sound right?

I'm asserting the first.  

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI'm trying to stretch my definition of "PR" to match what you're saying, and I think I've got it.

So, you've got a bunch of people that know each other a bit. Now, someone they know has said something asinine.

And they're being shit on as if they were a completely unified group, guilt-by-association style.

They talk about how this is exasperating, and about their reactions to it. And a number of them, individually, go out and try to put a hold on that process.

By doing so, they're doing PR work.

Yes, that's right.  Although it's implicit that they're bringing this to each others attention, so that those with the time/inclination/ideas can go out and deal with it.  We did the same thing in the indie webcomics scene.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenElevating this shit to the standard of pretending it's a culture war is melodrama; it's an attempt at trying to draw lines in the sand that do not, in reality, exist.

I certainly never said THAT.

Quote from: StuartI certainly never said THAT.

"PR work" implies a distinction of organisation between the group and the public.

Don't it, now?