It's difficult to explain to rational, educated people what it was like in the early 80s, when people were seeing the devil everywhere. Record burning parties, comics confiscated off trucks, D&D on 60 Minutes. I'm glad it's not like that now.

At the same time, though, that kind of opposition is required for any kind of a feeling of "underground" to emerge. People have to be hysterical in order for the devil's influence in pop culture to be meaningful. RPGs can be underground anymore, because everyone understands how harmless they are. Mission accomplished. Even comparatively outre products like Carcosa or The Book of Ebon Bindings aren't going to really irritate anyone anymore.

I was refered to Ms. Seal's office for Reading the Book of Ebon Bindings at lunch. She called me in and I cooled my heels for 40 minutes as she browsed through it. Her disappointment was palpable as I explained that it was some kind of nerd stuff. She was hoping for devil cult, I'm sure. But in a public school in these less hysterical days, your rights to be in a devil cult are secure, as long as you're not reading gun magazines. No one cared about the gun magazines I read in high school.

It's a cultural shift. People are now afraid of teenagers for things they actually do, rather than the devil's magic manifesting when they play their records backwards. It's sad to me. But it's not mysterious or inexplicable.

What you've just listed off is like a checklist of post-modernist nonsense.  Some of it good post-modernist nonsense, but it is all exactly what I am talking about.

Gaiman, Moore, Whedon, Mignola, Wright, even Tartakovsky are expressly about reacting to existing cliches instead of inventing something of their own.

Even Del Toro, much as I love the Faun's Labyrinth, was doing a very self-referential thing with the way he deconstructs a child's fantasy to question it's reality.  It's a brilliant piece, but it's a piece that works by playing on hoary memes well established in the audience's psyche.

I don't know how you can say it's a Reagan thing. The main movement was led by Tipper Gore, a Democrat. And it's continued, mainly with Democratic supporters, in the expansion of political correctness into all aspects of life.

Quote from: Seanchai;449596I feel bad for people who aren't enjoying their gaming.

Seanchai

Right, I forgot that offering a critique of gaming trends prevents you from enjoying, playing, or making, games.

It was a Reagan thing. It started before Tipper Gore and her insidious PMRC. I'm glad you brought her up. One of the things that makes me happy I grew up when I did was seeing Dee Schnieder, Frank Zappa, and John, by god, Denver sitting together at a table before Congress giving her the business. Her beady little eyes shrivelled to pinpricks.


oh--and Arcane's right. There isn't any geek culture anymore. The geeks that built it got older and disproportionately affluent, and the things they enjoyed became money-makers. It's all about slef-reference, collectabilty, and kitch now. There's absolutely nothing novel in it anymore. Which again--isn't a mystery. These cutting edge things belong to younger people. But like any self-respecting curmudgeonly old fart, I don't know what the underground is anymore. I followed the skatepunks for a while as they surfaced from underground to mainstream. Hopefully, whatever it is eschews the internet.

The censorship of American culture, especially youth culture, has been a pretty thoroughly bipartisan affair.

As a youth, it was one of the sources of my ultimate disenfranchisement from the American two-party system.

Quote from: Peregrin;449605Right, I forgot that offering a critique of gaming trends prevents you from enjoying, playing, or making, games.

Is this how it's going to be? You're going to be a little bitch every time I say something because I don't agree with your ridiculous view that we need rules to roleplay?

Seanchai

Quote from: stu2000;449599At the same time, though, that kind of opposition is required for any kind of a feeling of "underground" to emerge. People have to be hysterical in order for the devil's influence in pop culture to be meaningful. RPGs can be underground anymore, because everyone understands how harmless they are. Mission accomplished. Even comparatively outre products like Carcosa or The Book of Ebon Bindings aren't going to really irritate anyone anymore.

...

It's a cultural shift. People are now afraid of teenagers for things they actually do, rather than the devil's magic manifesting when they play their records backwards. It's sad to me. But it's not mysterious or inexplicable.

I've noticed even amongst the "evangelical" types I've met over the years, the non-irrational ones think all that "satanic" stuff in the media, music, etc ... is largely a joke and only really elicits a chuckle by them these days.  They thought these artists, musicians, writers, etc ... were trying "too hard" to be scary and offensive, and just looked silly in the end.

Quote from: Seanchai;449609Is this how it's going to be? You're going to be a little bitch every time I say something because I don't agree with your ridiculous view that we need rules to roleplay?

Seanchai

No, I'm not stalking you, you just offered up a smug comment that I felt like responding to.  This is a message board, after all, so if you're going snipe threads with comments that amount to implying that people here don't game, and then get all bitchy when someone responds with a bit of 'tude, I don't know what to tell you.

I can certainly not respond to your posts, if you'd rather that.

Quote from: stu2000;449606It was a Reagan thing. It started before Tipper Gore and her insidious PMRC. I'm glad you brought her up. One of the things that makes me happy I grew up when I did was seeing Dee Schnieder, Frank Zappa, and John, by god, Denver sitting together at a table before Congress giving her the business. Her beady little eyes shrivelled to pinpricks.


oh--and Arcane's right. There isn't any geek culture anymore. The geeks that built it got older and disproportionately affluent, and the things they enjoyed became money-makers. It's all about slef-reference, collectabilty, and kitch now. There's absolutely nothing novel in it anymore. Which again--isn't a mystery. These cutting edge things belong to younger people. But like any self-respecting curmudgeonly old fart, I don't know what the underground is anymore. I followed the skatepunks for a while as they surfaced from underground to mainstream. Hopefully, whatever it is eschews the internet.

I think that there is more of a focus on success now, instead of just being in the underground as an end in and of itself. There is still that aging strait edge / goth / nerd scenes, but a lot of the underground now - tattoos, music, martial arts - is all about making it big without selling out to a big company, and the easy access to self promotion makes it simple to get popular if you are good enough, without joining a big group or label.

I think popularity by virtue of greatness is the new culture, which is a good thing, and has killed the idea of a hopeless self contained underground.

Quote from: J Arcane;449601Gaiman, Moore, Whedon, Mignola, Wright, even Tartakovsky are expressly about reacting to existing cliches instead of inventing something of their own.

Is there anything recent (by any author) which could be in the category of "inventing something on their own" ?

Most of his complaint, when boiled down, is that he's upset the vast majority of roleplayers aren't interested in his and his pal Baker's rape fantasies.

Quote from: Cranewings;449612is all about making it big without selling out to a big company, and the easy access to self promotion makes it simple to get popular if you are good enough, without joining a big group or label.

I think popularity by virtue of greatness is the new culture, which is a good thing, and has killed the idea of a hopeless self contained underground.

It's always been about that. Look at Nirvana. They purposely wrote a bad album to try and get out of being famous. But it became popular anyways.

Arcane - Do you agree, then, that it's all been downhill since Wells and Verne?  Who since then invented anything original?

I submit that the crap that always defined most of mainstream culture has been the unreactive perpetuation of existing cliches, while the most original, exciting, and imaginative works of art have been reactions to existing cliches.

Quote from: Peregrin;449611...you just offered up a smug comment that I felt like responding to.

There's nothing smug about. It's genuine: I do feel bad for who aren't enjoying their gaming.

And that's all this is - a feeling of discontentment and someone searching, what's likely to be in vain, for the source of said feeling. They're not happy with what they're doing now, they remember being happy and excited way back when, and so they search from some differential scapegoat on which to pin the blame.

Seanchai