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Author Topic: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."  (Read 7062 times)

Omega

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2021, 06:33:28 AM »
It’s been a thing since ancient mythology and fairy tales. “Canon” is actually a modern invention.

I guess if modern is a few thousand years old then yeah I suppose it is in comparison to literally oral tradition stories.

You fail Mythology... FOREVER.

Quick education then since you need it badly.

As far back as Ancient Roman times people have been messing with established data and putting new twists on them. And sometimes those changes even supplant the originals. Theres myriad examples just in Greek religion and then more and more as branch out. And some of it is deliberately malicious alterations.

Screwing with established tales for some agenda is nothing new.

strcondex18cha3

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2021, 08:02:12 AM »
I think you fail and quite spectacularly so.

Myths are powerful, useful and ultimately good (in a biologically, adaptive sense) because one of their core qualities is the difficulty of screwing them up. They are narratives with a read/write protection retold orally for millenia.
And Rome fell -hard!- as a consequence, in case you didn't notice.

Myths are bound to be attacked by degenerous forces. Now these also play their part and produce some good effects if kept in line. But for the myth to work, it cannot be fundamentally changed. Myths are not stories.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2021, 09:17:22 AM »
You fail Mythology... FOREVER.
And failed at reading comprehension. Why do people who argue against cannon have to resort to personal attacks?

The discussion was about cannon, story consistency and consistent internal rules.
I argued that cannon (in the sense of established rules for a longterm work) had existed for more then just 'modern times', and even before the printing press (which itself is about 500 years old).

And all of this is side to the fact we are discussing literary works AFTER the invention of the printing press and the profiltration of mass education! Why the hell are we bringing stories from the era of oral fucking traditions into the equation as if it means anything?

palaeomerus

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2021, 09:48:46 AM »
When the Dragonlance books and modules came out "this is different" was the whole theme. That was the whole deal. STEEL PIECES. There are no gods they are a myth from before the cataclysm...oh wait maybe there are gods! Maybe dragons are real! Oh the first cleric in a long time has appeared among barbarians from the plains! Sure it borrows from Tolkien but the whole freaking DRAW of Dragon Lance when it came out was that Krynn is not like the realms. All the stuff you think you KNOW from reading the monster manual is WRONG. I get that 2nd Ed went even further out from the baseline but when it came out its differences where the whole point.  Yes I know people rolled their own settings then and before. Nonetheless Krynn was invented as a flavor B. It is vanilla coke. It will never replace coke. It is not meant to. It has its fans. it made a splash in its day but it is not and never will be the central product while remaining what it is because it refers to the central product as a modification of it.

Remember what WotC did to Waterdeep. Hell, remember what TSR did to Krynn for that matter.
Emery

strcondex18cha3

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2021, 11:15:48 AM »
No, different was not the theme at all.
Every new setting has to introduce some deviations. Steel pieces were just that. You could reprint all DL books and replace them with gold coins. It wouldn't matter one bit.
Now what was the real core of Dragonlance? How about Dragons and a giant, invading army on all parts of the continent? Experiencing the heroe's journey/Bildungsroman while fighting back and even rediscovering the proper spirituality.

The initial novels and modules were from '84 - at the time the Realms are still just a series of hot flashes Ed Greenwood sometimes experiences when sleeping with his red panties on.

This introduction to Krynn in medias res was the most bombastic way to kickstart an RPG franchise in the history of paper & pen. Some people realised this and while I hate reboots (a civilised society would surely put those to death threatening to reboot anything) I have to admit it makes absolutely sense, business wise

Eirikrautha

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2021, 12:48:50 PM »
No, different was not the theme at all.
Every new setting has to introduce some deviations. Steel pieces were just that. You could reprint all DL books and replace them with gold coins. It wouldn't matter one bit.
Now what was the real core of Dragonlance? How about Dragons and a giant, invading army on all parts of the continent? Experiencing the heroe's journey/Bildungsroman while fighting back and even rediscovering the proper spirituality.

The initial novels and modules were from '84 - at the time the Realms are still just a series of hot flashes Ed Greenwood sometimes experiences when sleeping with his red panties on.

This introduction to Krynn in medias res was the most bombastic way to kickstart an RPG franchise in the history of paper & pen. Some people realised this and while I hate reboots (a civilised society would surely put those to death threatening to reboot anything) I have to admit it makes absolutely sense, business wise

Yep.  Krynn was only a "reaction" for people who didn't have the creativity to imagine a world different than whatever baseline they read in their RPG books.

Pat
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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2021, 03:24:01 PM »
And failed at reading comprehension. Why do people who argue against cannon have to resort to personal attacks?
That's right! Cannons are wasted in personal attacks! They should be used to knock down the wall of a castle, or as part of a broadside against a ship of the line!

(Canon, not cannon. Several pages of that typo is probably enough. :) )

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2021, 03:35:29 PM »
(Canon, not cannon. Several pages of that typo is probably enough. :) )
Eh, words are always evolving and changing. Proper spelling is a modern invention anyway. Im not gonna shackle my methods of self expression to the desires grammur autists.  ;D

Pat
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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2021, 04:02:11 PM »
(Canon, not cannon. Several pages of that typo is probably enough. :) )
Eh, words are always evolving and changing. Proper spelling is a modern invention anyway. Im not gonna shackle my methods of self expression to the desires grammur autists.  ;D
Prepare for a volley!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0cqBj_m08k
(edit: The comments are entertaining :) )

« Last Edit: August 01, 2021, 04:07:56 PM by Pat »

Shasarak

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2021, 06:15:58 PM »
But here's a shocker:

What D&D lacks is a great fantasy world with mass appeal. Let that sink in.
D&D does not have a great "standard fantasy world". Krynn was their best shot, so far.

Nobody aside from hardcore fans associates any elves, dwarves, any characters like powerful mages, any lands or big events with D&D.
Warhammer kept everything super simple, copied our world, crank all tropes about the standard races to ten. After Lord of the Rings they are probably number two along with Warcraft in terms of world branding.

Forgotten Realms was utterly forgetable aside from the a tiny corner starring a certain Dark Elf, who now gets his LGBT covid jab and will be a lackluster cartoon of himself.
Rebooting Krynn might be their best chance at establishing something with mass appeal.

The problem with Krynn is that it really has one epic story to tell and its already been told.

Thats not to say there are not still stories that you can tell in Krynn but none of them is going to be as epic as the War of the Lance.

The advantage Forgotten Realms has over Krynn is that its not a one and done setting.  Its huge and has many different stories to tell within its confines.  Even the time of troubles did not reshape the realms as much as the cataclysm did to krynn.

Krynn has been around for almost as long as the Realms but just failed to capture that critical mass of appeal that the Realms did.  Rebooting Krynn again for what, the tenth time?  I dont see that it will do any better then it did in its prime and that is without the novel support that it used to have.  WotC will do a one book adventure and then they will continue on trying desperately to find the new hotness.
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Eirikrautha

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2021, 06:57:42 PM »
Krynn has been around for almost as long as the Realms but just failed to capture that critical mass of appeal that the Realms did.

Ehhh, I'm unaware of the player-wide surveys that established that.  Seems to me that TSR/WotC determined which setting would be featured in each edition, and not the players.  I can say that most of the players I have known have no attachment to FR at all.  The only reason they use any of it is because the modules are written with that as the default...

Shasarak

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2021, 07:07:20 PM »
Krynn has been around for almost as long as the Realms but just failed to capture that critical mass of appeal that the Realms did.

Ehhh, I'm unaware of the player-wide surveys that established that.  Seems to me that TSR/WotC determined which setting would be featured in each edition, and not the players.  I can say that most of the players I have known have no attachment to FR at all.  The only reason they use any of it is because the modules are written with that as the default...

If you sell 10 of A and 5 of B then which one would you choose to feature?
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

Eirikrautha

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2021, 07:39:10 PM »
Krynn has been around for almost as long as the Realms but just failed to capture that critical mass of appeal that the Realms did.

Ehhh, I'm unaware of the player-wide surveys that established that.  Seems to me that TSR/WotC determined which setting would be featured in each edition, and not the players.  I can say that most of the players I have known have no attachment to FR at all.  The only reason they use any of it is because the modules are written with that as the default...

If you sell 10 of A and 5 of B then which one would you choose to feature?
If I printed 30 of A and 5 of B, then sold your numbers, then I'd probably make more of B.  I had a 33% demand for A and 100% for B.

Dropbear

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2021, 07:51:51 PM »
If you sell 10 of A and 5 of B then which one would you choose to feature?

I feel that it would be hard not to sell 10 of A before 5 or B when B doesn’t exist as an option until well after A has been released and supplemented numerous times. If at all, in the case of the current edition. They can’t sell more of Dragonlance or Planescape or Spelljammer or Dark Sun if they don’t release them. Sure, FR might have sold more in some previous editions of the game (mainly because of its more frequent released supplement books), but we won’t know which setting would sell more than FR in this edition until it’s out. And even then, the only thing we might have to measure that by is Amazon rankings, because I’m sure they won’t release a numeric sales comparison between the existing settings and the “new-old” settings they claim to be releasing.

I feel like any decently-done DL setting book will probably blow the doors off of all of the current setting specific books. But then FR is kinda in just about everything WotC have released to date, so do we count all of those books in FR’s corner too then? Or just SCAG? I’m pretty certain DL could outsell that.

Shasarak

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2021, 07:53:59 PM »
Krynn has been around for almost as long as the Realms but just failed to capture that critical mass of appeal that the Realms did.

Ehhh, I'm unaware of the player-wide surveys that established that.  Seems to me that TSR/WotC determined which setting would be featured in each edition, and not the players.  I can say that most of the players I have known have no attachment to FR at all.  The only reason they use any of it is because the modules are written with that as the default...

If you sell 10 of A and 5 of B then which one would you choose to feature?
If I printed 30 of A and 5 of B, then sold your numbers, then I'd probably make more of B.  I had a 33% demand for A and 100% for B.

So its just because they did not print enough?

Thats a new one, I guess.
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus