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Author Topic: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."  (Read 7069 times)

RPGPundit

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"The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« on: July 29, 2021, 12:49:00 AM »
"The population of Krynn has always been mostly Tabaxi..."
What motivates WoTC to destroy Canon in D&D...


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palaeomerus

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2021, 01:23:53 AM »
Steel production is bad for the environment so all non industrial or tool use of steel is terrible....so after the cataclysm they used lacquered leaves for currency.
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Jam The MF

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2021, 02:23:02 AM »
"Why do they want to erase everything prior to 2014?"

Because it is part of their attempt, at an ascendancy to godhood.

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Flipped Bird

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2021, 06:19:37 AM »
I think you've put the cart before the horse. It's been the case for a while now that a lot of lazy writers see canon as a burden and rely heavily on prequels, remakes, and soft reboots that allow them to cherry pick the most memorable (and marketable) parts of an IP and cut away the rest. The fact that they will be creating an opportunity to force more of their politics into their settings is just icing on the cake for them.

Omega

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2021, 10:28:43 AM »
I think you've put the cart before the horse. It's been the case for a while now that a lot of lazy writers see canon as a burden and rely heavily on prequels, remakes, and soft reboots that allow them to cherry pick the most memorable (and marketable) parts of an IP and cut away the rest. The fact that they will be creating an opportunity to force more of their politics into their settings is just icing on the cake for them.

Thats been a thing since at least the 70s.

Keep in mind WOTC wanted to hard reboot Dragonlance as its 5e setting. "What if the group never met at the tavern?"

Ghostmaker

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2021, 10:37:55 AM »
I think you've put the cart before the horse. It's been the case for a while now that a lot of lazy writers see canon as a burden and rely heavily on prequels, remakes, and soft reboots that allow them to cherry pick the most memorable (and marketable) parts of an IP and cut away the rest. The fact that they will be creating an opportunity to force more of their politics into their settings is just icing on the cake for them.

Thats been a thing since at least the 70s.

Keep in mind WOTC wanted to hard reboot Dragonlance as its 5e setting. "What if the group never met at the tavern?"
"What if Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman told WotC to go fuck themselves?"

(Not disagreeing with you, but gawd, WotC must be pretty dumb if that was Plan A.)

Chris24601

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2021, 11:05:49 AM »
I think you've put the cart before the horse. It's been the case for a while now that a lot of lazy writers see canon as a burden and rely heavily on prequels, remakes, and soft reboots that allow them to cherry pick the most memorable (and marketable) parts of an IP and cut away the rest. The fact that they will be creating an opportunity to force more of their politics into their settings is just icing on the cake for them.

Thats been a thing since at least the 70s.

Keep in mind WOTC wanted to hard reboot Dragonlance as its 5e setting. "What if the group never met at the tavern?"
"What if Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman told WotC to go fuck themselves?"

(Not disagreeing with you, but gawd, WotC must be pretty dumb if that was Plan A.)
To be fair, in the sense that the original modules associated with the first trilogy were arguably Dragonlance at its best and COULD be played using your own PCs instead of the pre-gens if desired, I get the sentiment of “what if the pre-gens never met in the tavern and it’s up to your PC’s to save the world.”

It’s basically the same tact that worked REALLY well for 4E Dark Sun of rebooting the setting back to the situation at the start of the associated novel series where turmoil and adventure opportunities were most plentiful.

To be further fair, back in 2012-14 when 5e was coming together the project was not yet derangedly Woke either (the rise of the Orange Man had not yet driven them insane) so the initial setting material likely would not have changed the setting nearly as radically as if they were attempting a redo it today.

Honestly, a 5e centered around a redo of the original Dragonlance trilogy with players creating their own protagonists to adventure in a world dominated by the evil Dragon Armies is actually a really good idea that probably would have smoothed out a few things... ex. One of the earliest options for Dragonborn in 4E was alternate racial features to use them as Draconians so having a Draconian racial entry in the core book would have appealed to the nostalgia of the older fans and fit the setting perfectly.

That said, I’m done being pissed about what WotC does to their own settings. I care only in the academic sense of noting what they’re doing wrong because every fan they piss off is another potential customer I could pick up.

Ghostmaker

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2021, 11:13:21 AM »
I think you've put the cart before the horse. It's been the case for a while now that a lot of lazy writers see canon as a burden and rely heavily on prequels, remakes, and soft reboots that allow them to cherry pick the most memorable (and marketable) parts of an IP and cut away the rest. The fact that they will be creating an opportunity to force more of their politics into their settings is just icing on the cake for them.

Thats been a thing since at least the 70s.

Keep in mind WOTC wanted to hard reboot Dragonlance as its 5e setting. "What if the group never met at the tavern?"
"What if Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman told WotC to go fuck themselves?"

(Not disagreeing with you, but gawd, WotC must be pretty dumb if that was Plan A.)
To be fair, in the sense that the original modules associated with the first trilogy were arguably Dragonlance at its best and COULD be played using your own PCs instead of the pre-gens if desired, I get the sentiment of “what if the pre-gens never met in the tavern and it’s up to your PC’s to save the world.”

It’s basically the same tact that worked REALLY well for 4E Dark Sun of rebooting the setting back to the situation at the start of the associated novel series where turmoil and adventure opportunities were most plentiful.

To be further fair, back in 2012-14 when 5e was coming together the project was not yet derangedly Woke either (the rise of the Orange Man had not yet driven them insane) so the initial setting material likely would not have changed the setting nearly as radically as if they were attempting a redo it today.

Honestly, a 5e centered around a redo of the original Dragonlance trilogy with players creating their own protagonists to adventure in a world dominated by the evil Dragon Armies is actually a really good idea that probably would have smoothed out a few things... ex. One of the earliest options for Dragonborn in 4E was alternate racial features to use them as Draconians so having a Draconian racial entry in the core book would have appealed to the nostalgia of the older fans and fit the setting perfectly.

That said, I’m done being pissed about what WotC does to their own settings. I care only in the academic sense of noting what they’re doing wrong because every fan they piss off is another potential customer I could pick up.
Ah, well said. Yeah, that makes more sense.

But frankly, I wouldn't trust WotC to not fuck it up.

Jam The MF

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2021, 12:51:02 PM »
I think you've put the cart before the horse. It's been the case for a while now that a lot of lazy writers see canon as a burden and rely heavily on prequels, remakes, and soft reboots that allow them to cherry pick the most memorable (and marketable) parts of an IP and cut away the rest. The fact that they will be creating an opportunity to force more of their politics into their settings is just icing on the cake for them.

Thats been a thing since at least the 70s.

Keep in mind WOTC wanted to hard reboot Dragonlance as its 5e setting. "What if the group never met at the tavern?"
"What if Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman told WotC to go fuck themselves?"

(Not disagreeing with you, but gawd, WotC must be pretty dumb if that was Plan A.)
To be fair, in the sense that the original modules associated with the first trilogy were arguably Dragonlance at its best and COULD be played using your own PCs instead of the pre-gens if desired, I get the sentiment of “what if the pre-gens never met in the tavern and it’s up to your PC’s to save the world.”

It’s basically the same tact that worked REALLY well for 4E Dark Sun of rebooting the setting back to the situation at the start of the associated novel series where turmoil and adventure opportunities were most plentiful.

To be further fair, back in 2012-14 when 5e was coming together the project was not yet derangedly Woke either (the rise of the Orange Man had not yet driven them insane) so the initial setting material likely would not have changed the setting nearly as radically as if they were attempting a redo it today.

Honestly, a 5e centered around a redo of the original Dragonlance trilogy with players creating their own protagonists to adventure in a world dominated by the evil Dragon Armies is actually a really good idea that probably would have smoothed out a few things... ex. One of the earliest options for Dragonborn in 4E was alternate racial features to use them as Draconians so having a Draconian racial entry in the core book would have appealed to the nostalgia of the older fans and fit the setting perfectly.

That said, I’m done being pissed about what WotC does to their own settings. I care only in the academic sense of noting what they’re doing wrong because every fan they piss off is another potential customer I could pick up.
Ah, well said. Yeah, that makes more sense.

But frankly, I wouldn't trust WotC to not fuck it up.


I see you're familiar with their track record.
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

Chris24601

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2021, 01:09:09 PM »
I think you've put the cart before the horse. It's been the case for a while now that a lot of lazy writers see canon as a burden and rely heavily on prequels, remakes, and soft reboots that allow them to cherry pick the most memorable (and marketable) parts of an IP and cut away the rest. The fact that they will be creating an opportunity to force more of their politics into their settings is just icing on the cake for them.

Thats been a thing since at least the 70s.

Keep in mind WOTC wanted to hard reboot Dragonlance as its 5e setting. "What if the group never met at the tavern?"
"What if Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman told WotC to go fuck themselves?"

(Not disagreeing with you, but gawd, WotC must be pretty dumb if that was Plan A.)
To be fair, in the sense that the original modules associated with the first trilogy were arguably Dragonlance at its best and COULD be played using your own PCs instead of the pre-gens if desired, I get the sentiment of “what if the pre-gens never met in the tavern and it’s up to your PC’s to save the world.”

It’s basically the same tact that worked REALLY well for 4E Dark Sun of rebooting the setting back to the situation at the start of the associated novel series where turmoil and adventure opportunities were most plentiful.

To be further fair, back in 2012-14 when 5e was coming together the project was not yet derangedly Woke either (the rise of the Orange Man had not yet driven them insane) so the initial setting material likely would not have changed the setting nearly as radically as if they were attempting a redo it today.

Honestly, a 5e centered around a redo of the original Dragonlance trilogy with players creating their own protagonists to adventure in a world dominated by the evil Dragon Armies is actually a really good idea that probably would have smoothed out a few things... ex. One of the earliest options for Dragonborn in 4E was alternate racial features to use them as Draconians so having a Draconian racial entry in the core book would have appealed to the nostalgia of the older fans and fit the setting perfectly.

That said, I’m done being pissed about what WotC does to their own settings. I care only in the academic sense of noting what they’re doing wrong because every fan they piss off is another potential customer I could pick up.
Ah, well said. Yeah, that makes more sense.

But frankly, I wouldn't trust WotC to not fuck it up.
I would trust 2012-14 WotC to do about as well with it as they did with the 5e core (take that as you will).

I wouldn't let 2021 WotC within a country mile of anything I actually cared about.

Steven Mitchell

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2021, 04:17:32 PM »
Quote from: Robert Conquest
The behavior of any bureaucratic organization can best be understood by assuming that it is controlled by a secret cabal of its enemies.

Not sure if WotC exhibits the same characteristics because they are that bureaucratic or because Mr. Conquest was insufficiently broad in his application of that idea.

palaeomerus

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2021, 08:32:46 PM »
I think Krynn is a dumb choice for a center setting. It's a reaction to the tropes of prior settings. Without those prior settings to compare its proposed changes with it goes from seeming different to merely having some quirks. Krynn is there to provide a contrast with the more conventional settings like Greyhawk or Blackmoor or The Forgotten Realms Tolkien pastiche.

1. The gods have been gone or at least under cover and suddenly they are coming back and sweeping away the false religion that more or less banned their worship. The dragons are returning as well as a new invading race of Draconian dragon men.

2. There was a cataclysm, later explained as a punishment from the gods where a meteor or asteroid destroyed the world equivalent of Rome at the height of its power. The cataclysm altered the land scape, brought gold in such high amounts that the metal lost its potential to be used as a currency metal. The gods left mankind to their own devices and in this time the dragons disappeared as well.

3. The gods were somehow formally organized into something like a government where one coming back brought others, their counterparts back as well as if some sort of arms limitation treaty was in effect. When they come back to Krynn directly their constellation reflects that by becoming invisible.

4. The mages being sorted into good, evil, and, neutral schools with some ability to change from one to the other and that have their own governing moon one of which is only visible to its followers is it's own strange thing.

5. Some of the races are altered somewhat. Kender replace halflings being loud, capricious, athletic, and rather child like rather than homesy stable slightly dumpy types.

6. Krynn as an alternate material plane originally, and a different planetary sphere in the void later on(Spelljammer compatibility), takes a figure from the normal setting, Tiamat the Chromatic dragon, and changes the alignment from lawful evil to chaotic evil, changes the domain to the Abyss instead of a layer of Hell, and promotes the new being to major godhood thus opening up a lot of "what if" variations to be explored.  Like maybe they could have a good Asmodeus equivalent or a neutral Demogorgon. Whatevs.

Krynn has it's main value as WEIRDO ALTERNATE D&D to be compared to earlier stuff by the DM and players. Some of the metagaming assumptions born of familiarity will be thrown out or twisted. That is the fun of it. It is not really great unto itself.  It is Mirror Universe/ Sliders D&D where WW2 was started by The Dominican Republic or something odd like that. Without Earth Prime a Sliders universe doesn't mean much. Without the normal TOS Star Trek universe, to be a reaction to,  the Mirror Universe is almost useless. It's just a ship full of rotten dickheads doing awful things.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 08:38:13 PM by palaeomerus »
Emery

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2021, 10:29:05 PM »
Ah, well said. Yeah, that makes more sense.

But frankly, I wouldn't trust WotC to not fuck it up.

Also to be fair, WOTC was getting desperate for a D&D movie and cartoon series and Dragonlance is about the only D&D setting that is not covered under Solomons blanket control over all things D&D media.

Unfortunately, it being FailOTC, they decided to reboot the setting with a new writer and not tell Weiss and co. The writer found out, talked to them, found out they were not on board, and that angle was dropped and thus another edition chained to Forgotten Realms.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 11:42:25 PM by Omega »

Jaeger

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2021, 11:12:17 PM »
...
Keep in mind WOTC wanted to hard reboot Dragonlance as its 5e setting. "What if the group never met at the tavern?"
"What if Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman told WotC to go fuck themselves?"

(Not disagreeing with you, but gawd, WotC must be pretty dumb if that was Plan A.)

WOTC did try and do a Dragonlance reboot. They even hired Jim Butcher now of Dresden files fame to write it up. He was all exited about it and then he asked if Hickman and Weis were down with the re-boot plan... WOTC dissembled...  Butcher then said: "WTF!? They're not on board? Hell no, I'm out bitches!! Holla!...".

I don't think that went down too well at WOTC. They were in the odd situation of being the IP owners, yet the setting creators were viewed by fandom as DL being 'their baby'.


Put on your tinfoil hats kids, Uncle Jaeger is goin' off the deep end now...

So fast forward to when Hickman and Weis Paid WOTC for a DragonLance license to write and publish three new books. Things went fine for a while, then their editor was changed to an almost parody of a SJW male, and they found that their approval process was stopped. So no new books, and H&W are SOL: "Too bad so sad says WOTC..."

Hickman and Weis then say: "We are not just two rando's from the internet, we actually saved some cash from all those bestselling DragonLance books we wrote back in the day. We got lawyers and shit too motherfuckers!".

H&W then sue WOTC for breach of contract: "Give us ten million dollars bitches for fucking with the license we paid you for!"

In an epically fast turnaround for a multi-million dollar corporation; WOTC backed down. (IMHO some kind of out of court agreement was reached.) H&W withdrew their lawsuit, and like fucking magic all their approval issues went away...

IMHO, Hickman and Weiss had a legit case, and someone from Hasbro legal came down from on high and said: "WTF are you guys doing!?".

*Insert corporate overlord bitch-slaps here*

So fast forward to today; The SJW editor that gave H&W grief is fired, and the first of the new DragonLance novels is set to drop soon.

As to the new trilogy: I would find it absolutely incredulous that H&W would retcon and invalidate their past writings for the three new books primarily marketed to current DL fandom.


So how does this relate to Crawfords musings: "The only D&D Lore that is 'cannon', is what we make for 5e motherfuckers. Suck it grognards!"

1: WOTC has been on a bit of a kick lately taking popular older settings like Ravenloft, and absolutely fucking them up.

2: It is also rather interesting that Crawford specifically cites DragonLance as an example of something that was ok in its day, but is not considered in any way sacrosanct now...

3: How much you wanna bet the SJW's like Crawford hate the fact that Hickman and Weis still got to do their books, and hate the fact that last time they tried to do a DL setting reboot without them; Butcher bounced...

Any takers?

4: Remember: SJW's always lie. SJW's always project. And SJW's always double-down.


IMHO the timing of this might have to do with the fact that although new DragonLance books will becoming out by Hickman and Weiss. There is zero indication or announcements of any kind by WOTC that the new DL trilogy even exists...

5: There is this:
https://screenrant.com/dungeons-dragons-setting-classic-ravenloft-wizards-coast/

One of the two classic setting set to make a comeback could very easily be a DragonLance setting book that retcons huge swaths of H&W established Lore, bringing it  “in line with modern sensibilities” pouring on as much gay, bisexual, gender, and race swapping that they can, and still call it "DragonLance".

Why?

Because: "Fuck You Hickman and Weis!"

That's why.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 11:20:05 PM by Jaeger »
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Shasarak

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Re: "The Population of Krynn has ALWAYS Been Mostly Tabaxi..."
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2021, 05:50:57 AM »
Critical Drinker explains: Why Canon Matters

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