The peripheral community that is a f*cking pox on our hobby

[Aos]

@ Jackalope: But let me ask you this: Somebody drugs your pcs at a feast, takes all their stuff and strands them on a desert island. Are they just going to walk away from that? I never ask my guys to play along, I don't have to- after the fuckover- which i always give them ample opportunity to avoid- they run things themselves, and i never railroad, ever.

[Pseudoephedrine]

I've studied, acted and directed for Theatre (including improv), Film and TV.  There's a lot of overlap between the mediums, and people usually overstate the differences between Film and TV in particular.  Usually when they're being pretentious. Since most TV is shot on film or digital these days it's mostly how you frame up shots (changing with HDTV) and the length of stories you can tell (2-hour one-shot vs 1-hour series).  Most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference if they visited the set for a TV show or a movie.  The people who write for movies are often the same ones who write for TV as well.

I agree, but there are a few differences, like the "fake amnesia" issue I mentioned with David down below, that movies don't normally have. Otherwise, sure. My interest, remember, is in literature and theatre here, rather than arguing that one should be watching great films or something.

All things considered, I think that a better skill to develop than improv acting is public speaking.

I found high school debating tremendously useful in the OOC components of roleplaying since it showed me how to quickly evaluate arguments and then develop my own position persuasively.

[Haffrung]

Popular action movies of the sort people try to model with RPGs often have conceits that I just can't get past. For instance, how many times do you see a character who has known the protagonist for only a few hours (or even minutes) suddenly form a devoted attachment to him that trumps all other relationships with friends, family, etc.? It's simply ridiculous that Eowyn is more concerned about the safety of Aragorn (who she has known for a few hours) than her own brother, or any of the other men of Rohan she has known all her life. Or that Gimli, who is about 200 years old, should get choked up over a guy he's travelled with for a couple weeks.  

And we don't find this sort of emotional distortion only in adolescent action films. Film, by its nature, has to compress time and drama in weird ways. Ongoing RPG campaigns do not have to do that. To my mind, the realm where RPGs are far superior to movies, or TV, or books is in exploring fictional settings in a plausible manner, at the pace and direction of the players.

[Blackleaf]

I agree, but there are a few differences, like the "fake amnesia" issue I mentioned with David down below, that movies don't normally have. Otherwise, sure. My interest, remember, is in literature and theatre here, rather than arguing that one should be watching great films or something.

That's a difference between Episodic and Serialized formats for TV shows.  An Episodic RPG would be like a one-shot, or maybe a highly structured game like My Life With Master.  Most RPGs would be more like a Serialized show anyway, so this is a non-issue.

I think you're also comparing the best of literature to all of television and film and using that to dismiss their relevance.  Is Hamlet better than a random episode of Alf?  Sure -- I doubt anybody (except maybe Rotwang!) would argue otherwise.  Is The Italian Job or even an episode of Law & Order a better thing to reference for your games than some self-published and badly written crime novel?  I'd say so.

I found high school debating tremendously useful in the OOC components of roleplaying since it showed me how to quickly evaluate arguments and then develop my own position persuasively.

I was thinking more about being able to speak clearly and in a way that keeps your audience's attention.

[Aos]

I dunno, back in the Earthdawn days, my guys would put away like a case of beer on game night- there was nothing fake about the resulting amnesia, I assure you.

[Engine]

I guess I didn't lay on the sarcasm thick enough.

Yeah, they need tags for that shit. I had to abandon sarcasm, because it works so poorly when your audience doesn't know you [or your writing] well enough. Message received now, though.

"Fake amnesia" in episodic shows (where a character doesn't really seem to remember what happened last week, last month, even last season sometimes) is a IMHO perfect example of something that's nearly impossible to actually roleplay, and even inimical to roleplaying.

I think pointing to a confirmed and well-known flaw of television as something that's difficult to roleplay doesn't make your case well; "fake amnesia," if I'm understanding the term properly, is an artifact of writer ignorance, and not anything like a "feature" you'd want to import into roleplaying.

Still, if you can watch, say, Stargate SG-1 or Angel - those are "genre television," right? I'm not a television watcher, as a rule - and not come away with something to aid your campaign [no matter how intellectual that campaign may be], then you're watching it wrong. Serial television, particularly, shows how the structure of campaign [season] and adventure [episode] can be woven so as to tell a broad story while not beating people constantly over the head with it, for example.

I like to think my games are as high-minded as the next fellow's, but I've learned a lot from television, both in terms of what to do, and what not to do. For example, I did a study of science fiction television broadcasts from the last three decades, which included as a matter of course the sublime Starhunter; if you can watch that and not learn how not to run an RPG game, you're watching it wrong, too.

[arminius]

Massive thread drift. Oh well.

I think Sett is more right than not when he says Clancy et. al. are good sources for adventure-oriented gaming, but crap when (as all too often) they're used as sources for emotion/morality oriented gaming.

I'm not sure about Pseudo's argument. I don't really care much about description beyond basic competence. (That said, a lot of people fail at diction, especially when they're trying to be fancy.) If he's talking about narrative structure in the sense of how a plot is introduced and develops across time, I'm also suspicious (though not completely dismissive) since I don't think the GM ought to be managing mood and theme. If he's talking about narrative structure in the sense of establishing interesting and believable character motivations and conflicts, then I pretty much agree and see this as another version of Sett's point.

[Thanatos02]

If people want to emulate a certain type of theme, then it usually has to be discussed a little ahead of time. Kind of like in the same way that a DM might sit down with the players and say something like,

"Ok, everyone. I'm as excited about running this game as you are about playing it, and I know what I threw out there was "Agents of the Crown, ala high-fantasy Ghost in the Shell. One of the things that Steve and I talked about was individual freedoms versus the safety of the state, and what it was worth doing in the name of the state. So, you know, that might come up. Steve wrote up a Rogue who owed his life to the crown after he was pulled out of the gulag. .."

So, the players are already kind of aware that you might throw more twists then just "For your next mission...". A discussion like that doesn't need to be done, but it can inspire the players to work with that angle, if they're interested, and prevents something like a bait-and-switch feel.

And... I don't know. I think that you can help facilitate themes in games, if your players want that kind of thing. I tend to talk about what kind of game I want to run a lot before I run them, though, and I get a lot of player support. Sett would think it's shit (especially how I ran my last game), but you know, whatever.

EDIT: And you know I went right ahead and drug out a piece of anime for this. I don't know if it helps, but I prefer the Stand Alone Complex series to the movie, hands down. Amusingly, if I were going to run something like this, I'd take more cues from G:tS, history, and Spy Games then from novels. I never much liked espionage books.

[droog]

But what if the player decides they don't want revenge?  What if they decide they weren't particularly attached to their father, didn't really want the throne, and are more than happy to let their uncle take it.  Then the whole thing falls apart.

No, the plot of Shakespeare's Hamlet falls apart, but you now have an original story. Everybody wins! Unless what you wanted to do was run in lockstep through the plot of Hamlet.

Shakespeare didn't stick to the earlier story he drew inspiration from, so why should I?

[David R]

Really? I find characters in genre television shows fairly static in comparison with PCs. "Fake amnesia" in episodic shows (where a character doesn't really seem to remember what happened last week, last month, even last season sometimes) is a IMHO perfect example of something that's nearly impossible to actually roleplay, and even inimical to roleplaying.

Well by structure I meant elements like the serial nature of TV shows, seasons, story arcs, stand alone "episodes", cold openings, cliffhangers, pacing etc. I do agree that narrative conceits like the one you mentioned whether it's from film, television or books are by their very nature (for my crew anyway) immersion breakers and are best avoided.

If I was a cool internet guy I would link you to some articles by Robin Laws who wrote interesting stuff about this subject in Dragon and in his Laws of Good Gamemastering.....

BTW, some who have read your Iron Heroes for Bad People have commented that it is so Peckinpah.....which may not exactly thrill you.

Regards,
David R

[Blackleaf]

I think Sett is more right than not when he says Clancy et. al. are good sources for adventure-oriented gaming, but crap when (as all too often) they're used as sources for emotion/morality oriented gaming.

Do you think he's talking about character based emotion/morality oriented gaming?

[David R]

Do you think he's talking about character based emotion/morality oriented gaming?

Ah....the Return or should I say Revenge of Thematic....

Regards,
David R

[Age of Fable]

I don't mind people who never play - but I do dislike people who play once then stop turning up.

[jibbajibba]

Seldom has this site degenerated into such pretentious bollocks.

The Illiad is not an accessible bit of fiction its a bloody long and often tediously repetative ancient poem written in fucking dactylic hexameter. I might well run a game based on the story of the Illiad but I would stick to a reread of the Roger Lancelyn Green kids version to refresh my memory.

I have to defend comics and TV. There is so much great TV and so many great comics. Yes Spiderman 214 might be shit (where he teams up with the sub-mariner to take on the Frightful 4 right?) but Moonshadow is just fantastic (would make a crap game though) and Gaiman is a genius in any genre.

Anyone that takes a pompous stance and says classic literature is a better source of inspiration for games is just stating an opinion and suspect doing so for the sound it makes not out of any real conviction. The fact of the matter is I never managed to read the whole of the Worm Orborous or Gormenghast, My life is just too short. Likewise I think the Life and times of Tristram Shandy, which I did finish thanks to a really long train journey in Thailand is absolute shit. I fail to find the characters engaging. I much prefer to base a game on the pulpy crappy fiction of Fiest or Gemmel and gain a lot more inspiration from watching an episode of BattleStar Galactica than from reading Chekov. If I want some Slavic misery I'll just talk to the wife.

Comics are great TV is great. Episodic storytelling that links character arcs and gives everyone some time in the spotlight is something to strive towards in Role Playing and these are the genres that have mastered the art but if it doesn't happen and the guys just have fun then fantastic. Of course there is shit telly and character amnesia but with Heroes, Lost, the Sopranos etc there is a also a thread of gold in there.

[stu2000]

I thought Tristram Shandy was funny . . .

I get more game ideas from Land of the Lost, though.