The peripheral community that is a f*cking pox on our hobby

[Balbinus]

I'm betting the impact of collectors not buying RPG books would be highly detrimental to publishers as well. Given how marginal many RPG companies are already, a loss of say 30 per cent of the market would make many game lines commercially unviable. Looking at my shelf, I have my doubts that Talislanta 4E, Castle Whiterock, or the Savage Worlds of Solomon Kane would have made it to market if the only people they were sold to were gamers who were pretty sure they were going to run a game. How many of the people who own those books have run games with them? Blind guess - maybe a quarter. But I'm still glad they were published.

Sure, the loss of collectors would hurt the industry pretty badly, but I don't think the industry and the hobby are synonmyous.

Personally, I tend to see much of the industry as irrelevant to my hobby, which is playing roleplaying games.  I'm far from persuaded that hobby requires the type of industry we have, I think it's only kept afloat by the constant influx of well meaning gamers who blow their money on their dreams of being games designers/publishers.  I don't actually think the gaming industry in its current form is economically viable, or has been for a very long time (if ever).

[Ned the Lonely Donkey]

My case isn't that there are games purely designed for collectors.  I don't think any such thing.

Well, I have no idea what it is you are trying to say, then. "Things were better in the good old days?" Really? Is that all there is to this?

Ned

[gleichman]

Well, I have no idea what it is you are trying to say, then. "Things were better in the good old days?" Really? Is that all there is to this?

I think he makes a clear and interesting point.

I just don't know how significant it is. The games in the old days were 90% crap and today they're 99% crap- but that increase seems to be to be due to the total increase in number of games.

So what would removing collectors do? Would it alter the nature of that 1% that isn't crap, or would it remove much of the crap (I include Tribe 8 in this group) basically altering nothing in the good games (just making them a higher percentage the total remaining).

One needs to answer this question I think before worrying much about collectors.

[Haffrung]

Personally, I tend to see much of the industry as irrelevant to my hobby, which is playing roleplaying games.  

Then why do you even care what kinds of books the industry publishes?

I'm far from persuaded that hobby requires the type of industry we have, I think it's only kept afloat by the constant influx of well meaning gamers who blow their money on their dreams of being games designers/publishers.  I don't actually think the gaming industry in its current form is economically viable, or has been for a very long time (if ever).

Probably not. But I've gotten a fair amount of enjoyment out of a lots of RPG books that I've only read and sketched out scenarios for. If RPG publishing become even less worthwhile of an endeavour because prints runs and margins get even smaller, I'll have fewer game books to buy. Which sucks for me. And what will you have gained? Some sort of personal satisfaction from knowing that your hobby isn't sullied by commercial considerations?

[Engine]

I can point though to OWoD which as I say had adverts expressly aimed at people buying to read rather than to play.

First, let me say, "excellent!" That means that in theory, someone must have made some effort to make the game pleasurable to read. I, for one, don't see anything wrong with that. Many of the FASA books from the same era take a similar tack, trying to be more than just a manual, a list of rules, bunches of tables. [Not that there's anything wrong with enjoying lists of tables, either, a pleasure of mine as well.]

Second, in order for this to apply to the thesis, the quality of being written for people to read needs to be shown to make the playability of the game lesser. What is it about these books which made them appeal to collectors but not to players?

See, I think one of the problems I'm having with the whole idea is that somehow, by appealing to collectors, a game would then be worse for players. Why would that be? I mean, it can't be like rules changes, because why would someone change the rules to satisfy people who are just reading the books, not playing them? So is it the idea of making the setting more interesting, and thus the books more readable, that ruins the books for players? Because that doesn't make much sense to me.

So maybe you could walk me though what happened to a particular game - just pick one - and how the designers made it suck for players by appealing to collectors.

[Thanatos02]

I know I bought NWoDs Mysterious Places basically to collect.  I didn't intend to use it as such, basically just to observe layout and how they structured locations, plus the fiction they included.

I've got not delusions that it's masterful, I just figured I was going to look at it enough to warrant my money. This was back when I was working and could afford to splurge every now and then, but I don't really regret it.

I've also bought Wraith and Vampire: Dark Ages mostly to read. I'd run or play either, but I don't think it's likely. They were ridiculously cheap, and I think they're good games. So, I'm known to collect occasionally, if I think I'm getting my money's worth. It's still collecting if you read through them, I gather.

On a different topic, I don't believe that games used to be better. Or at least game books. I think higher production standards are nice, but I also approve of a cheaper printing run. Sadly, it doesn't always make sense to do both. In that case, I personally prefer a more expensive book. I don't need many, which kind of belies my collectors point above, but I'd prefer if the ones I sprung for are cool looking and fun to read, because I'm going to be doing it a lot. If I have to choose between high values and lots of books, it's high values in nearly all cases.

[Pseudoephedrine]

I already did, E-comrade. White-Wolf used a standardised format of about 96 pages for their soft-cover oWoD splats. The more fiction in there, the less space for gaming material. The more pages, half-pages and quarter-pages devoted to art, the less space for gaming material. The formatting as well reduces the space for gaming material by breaking up text in complicated ways, using large text and large spaces between it, etc. The actual gaming material in a book like say, Hunter: Hermits is perhaps five pages in 11 pt. type, and even with the formatting of the rest book, is only about 12 or so out of 96. The rest is fiction, extremely vague discussions of interest only to people who want to debate things on the internet, and tons and tons of art.

[Thanatos02]

I already did, E-comrade. White-Wolf used a standardised format of about 96 pages for their soft-cover oWoD splats. The more fiction in there, the less space for gaming material. The more pages, half-pages and quarter-pages devoted to art, the less space for gaming material. The formatting as well reduces the space for gaming material by breaking up text in complicated ways, using large text and large spaces between it, etc. The actual gaming material in a book like say, Hunter: Hermits is perhaps five pages in 11 pt. type, and even with the formatting of the rest book, is only about 12 or so out of 96. The rest is fiction, extremely vague discussions of interest only to people who want to debate things on the internet, and tons and tons of art.

This is true, and I should know, because I owned a copy of Hermits before someone stole it from me.

I'm cross about that, too. I think I know who it is, and that means I'll never, ever recover it.

I liked the Hunter line a lot. It was a guilty pleasure of mine that I don't mind sharing. I even liked the fiction, which is good, because that's what I got. On the other hand, that's where the line was going and I don't think that anyone paging through Creed books was surprised when they bought their copy and brought it home. Even the most cursory look through will have told a casual reader that there's few if any mechanics in there.

On the other hand , to the lines credit, you really didn't need anything besides the core book to play. As far as White Wolfs traditional problem of compelling you to buy more books to fight things or risk statting up baddies yourself. I guess in that respect it's not really worse then D&D though, depending on what you're fighting.

Side note: I wish more core books came with good tools to come up with antagonists. It is frustrating to buy a core book and discover you need 40 more dollars to fight goblins.

[Engine]

White-Wolf used a standardised format of about 96 pages for their soft-cover oWoD splats. The more fiction in there, the less space for gaming material. The more pages, half-pages and quarter-pages devoted to art, the less space for gaming material.

Ah, now see, I think fiction and art are gaming material. I'm not saying it can't be overdone, or that bad fiction or bad art don't detract from the game, but my bar-none favorite sourcebooks all include enormous dollops of art and fiction, and that's for a game I spent 17 years playing with a giant smile on my face.

Then again, I didn't play White Wolf games. Or buy their books.

[Pseudoephedrine]

Ah, now see, I think fiction and art are gaming material. I'm not saying it can't be overdone, or that bad fiction or bad art don't detract from the game, but my bar-none favorite sourcebooks all include enormous dollops of art and fiction, and that's for a game I spent 17 years playing with a giant smile on my face.

I don't, just because you don't actually use them around the table, or even when preparing to go to the table. They're more part of the fandom surrounding a game than the game itself. That's why I think they're more for collectors or casual fans of the setting than for gamers (Though gamers can enjoy them, certainly).

[gleichman]

Ah, now see, I think fiction and art are gaming material. I'm not saying it can't be overdone, or that bad fiction or bad art don't detract from the game, but my bar-none favorite sourcebooks all include enormous dollops of art and fiction, and that's for a game I spent 17 years playing with a giant smile on my face.

If it's SR as I think it is from your past posts, I feel I should add to that the fact that in addition to all that fuff, they also producted much crunch. Tons of rules and options over many supplements. So it was a product line that attempt to fill both needs and if anything overfilled it.

The more evil side of me notes also that their rules sucked

[Engine]

I don't, just because you don't actually use them around the table, or even when preparing to go to the table.

Then it's bad fiction. The point of fiction-in-sourcebooks - whether it's shadowtalk in Shadowrun or short stories in Vampire or the sort of all-immersive "real-world document as gameworld document" of SR and Earthdawn - is to understand better the color and texture of the gameworld, and that you do take to the table.

That said, I can see your point: done poorly, fiction does nothing but appeal to collectors/readers. But it doesn't have to be done poorly, so I don't find the collector/reader a pox on the hobby - hey, they're propping up the game company! - but rather the people doing it badly that I consider the pox.

If it's SR as I think it is from your past posts...

Shit, I'm a fanboy, aren't I? Yes, Shadowrun and Earthdawn.

...I feel I should add to that the fact that in addition to all that fuff, they also producted much crunch.

Yep. Tons of it, sometimes more than needed. Then they shifted to producing nothing but crunch, and the line imploded; fortunately, some stupid dicks yelled long and loud and got themselves heard, and/or grabbed the reins and just did it themselves as freelancers. [Which seems like a good job until you realize you haven't been paid in a half-decade.]

The more evil side of me notes also that their rules sucked

Sucking's relative, too.

[Aos]

Sucking's relative, too.

Only in Kentucky.

[The Yann Waters]

I don't, just because you don't actually use them around the table, or even when preparing to go to the table.

Well, you might not do so, but that's hardly universal. Personally I use even flavour fiction for the purposes of actual play all the time, as mentioned previously... hmm... here.

Also, speaking of White Wolf, their Book of Worlds for Mage: The Ascension was basically a travelogue of the entire setting with all the crunch in a brief appendix at the end. It still remains one of my favourite supplements for the line.

[droog]

Only in Kentucky.

Here it's Tasmania!