The peripheral community that is a f*cking pox on our hobby

One Horse Town · August 06, 2008, 07:40:36 AM

Quote from: Mike S.;232271Apparently you haven't read many of Settembrini's postings. This is very common.

I'm glad you didn't waste all that money spent on camoflage gear.

We fucking get it!!

On topic, is it a peripheral community? I think it's very much a mainstream part of the community (at least, online). Dunno about a pox though.

Engine · August 06, 2008, 07:57:12 AM

Quote from: Engine;232223Another data point: does anyone have examples of games which have been "ruined" by kibitzers? What percentage of games are effected by this movement, and how much of the game's content is designed for these people?

Seriously, if this is a major problem, there should be some evidence, somewhere, to back it up. Does anyone have any evidence of a game being influenced by kibitzers, or is this all unsupported speculation?

One Horse Town · August 06, 2008, 08:06:37 AM

Quote from: Engine;232485Fuck you, Engine. Speculation is way more fun that your stupid "evidence." You're an asshole.

From my own perspective no content is designed for the collectors. If you aren't writing gameable material, you're not writing a game. However, i do think that the preponderence towards shiny art/layout, hardcover books and fancy bells and whistles does exactly that...and it's been driven by the purchasers, not the developers. Prices don't reflect the increase in production standards and as a result, unless you're WotC and a select couple of others, you don't make any money. That is a threat to the industry IMO. 'Disposable' pdfs from Joe Bloggs (soon to be me as well) make the collectors job easier and less expensive too. He can buy 3 pdf games for the price of 1 hardback, so if his curiosity is piqued, he buys. Collections can easily build up this way.

I'm quite happy with a b&w softcover that contains great material than a cool looking colour hardback with fancy borders, wierd fonts and half a page of art every couple of pages. I seem to be in the minority though.

jgants · August 06, 2008, 08:07:37 AM

I dunno about Pseudo's whole "read more classic lit to give your games structure" thing. Sounds like a case of :forge:

I'm going to keep basing my games off of movies and comic books, thanks.

Engine · August 06, 2008, 08:08:50 AM

Damn you, One Horse Town! You've ruined my ninja edit!

I was trying to back up and be a better man, but now we all see my initial instinct is to be a lesser one.

droog · August 06, 2008, 08:12:11 AM

Quote from: jgants;232490I dunno about Pseudo's whole "read more classic lit to give your games structure" thing. Sounds like a case of :forge:

I'm going to keep basing my games off of movies and comic books, thanks.

Well, according to Settembrini and Prof. Inverarity, the problem with Forge games is that they're based on movies and comic books.

Settembrini · August 06, 2008, 08:21:14 AM

Beat me to it.
Add: TV shows.

droog · August 06, 2008, 08:25:43 AM

Quote from: Settembrini;232495Beat me to it.
Add: TV shows.

You're fighting a losing battle, and some of your opponents aren't on the side you're fighting.

One Horse Town · August 06, 2008, 08:26:03 AM

Quote from: Engine;232491Damn you, One Horse Town! You've ruined my ninja edit!

I was trying to back up and be a better man, but now we all see my initial instinct is to be a lesser one.

Ouch. That's 15 fewer hit points and no Improved Critical feat.

The Yann Waters · August 06, 2008, 08:32:12 AM

Quote from: Jackalope;232210But then you see people releasing games in only super-deluxe special editions -- Nobilis, Fantasy Imperium -- that are overpriced and fall apart when used for regular gaming.

Actually, the first (Pharos) edition of Nobilis was a two-hundred-page POD publication which cost $28, the second (Hogshead) one was the better-known "coffee table book" with 304 pages and the price tag of $43, and the third (Eos) one will include 450 pages in more conventional proportions and cost $44.95: the game's never exactly had one of those gold-embossed leatherbound collector's editions. (And I'd contest that it falls apart for "regular" gaming, of course.)

Pseudoephedrine · August 06, 2008, 08:37:09 AM

Quote from: John Morrow;232377To be honest, I think real life experience combined with non-fiction (history, biographies, psychology, current affairs, etc.) are a better source of inspiration than fiction. Good fiction is usually someone else's distillation of real life experiences and knowledge of the real world and when a person writes fiction based on what they know primarily from other fiction, they become two (or more) steps removed from reality and produce something derivative rather than something unique and interesting.

Life experience is handy, but it's only really valuable if your goal is to mimic a certain style of story - the "realist" story. While that's a popular genre (one I'm interested in, certainly), it's a genre amongst genres, not an aesthetic foundation.

Pseudoephedrine · August 06, 2008, 08:41:04 AM

Quote from: John Morrow;232381The problem is that you'll see many of the works of Shakespeare (as well as other famous works of literature) borrowed or even overtly ripped off in everything from movies to cartoons. Before I ever read Shakespeare, I saw Gilligan's Island do a Hamlet musical. And people who wouldn't know Joseph Conrad from Robert Conrad know the plot of Heart of Darkness from Apocalypse Now or perhaps Cannibal Women in the Avocado Jungle of Death or, two steps removed, Eek the Cat's cartoon parody of Apocalypse Now Eekpocalypse Now!. I recently read an article (couldn't find a link to it) where the author talked about making an allusion to a work of literature and having someone else think he was talking about The Simpsons, which had done a parody of the work of literature.

Yes, but they're brutalised in those productions by being stripped down structurally for presentation on the idiot box. The point isn't to read them for cliches to appropriate, but to understand how the complicated narrative structures of literary fiction operate, something that TV is particularly bad at representing.

Pseudoephedrine · August 06, 2008, 08:45:24 AM

Quote from: David R;232395You just pissed on my gaming sessions and GMing style. And boy does it sting.

Sorry, mate. I'm not opposed to cliche in content, but I favour structural innovation in the narrative when it comes to games. Surprisingly, from the perspective of the history of culture, the most innovative narrative structure in RPGs is actually the sandbox.

Quote from: Engine;232485Seriously, if this is a major problem, there should be some evidence, somewhere, to back it up. Does anyone have any evidence of a game being influenced by kibitzers, or is this all unsupported speculation?

I pointed to WW games earlier on this thread.

Blackleaf · August 06, 2008, 08:56:24 AM

Quote from: droog;232494Well, according to Settembrini and Prof. Inverarity, the problem with Forge games is that they're based on movies and comic books.

A game being based on something like movies and comic books? That's crazy talk. Surely games should be based on things like Chekhov, Dickens and Shaw - and nothing else. This is especially true if it's a game about killing monsters and taking their stuff.

stu2000 · August 06, 2008, 09:02:14 AM

The sandbox as a narrative structure is what makes games interesting as an activity. I almost said "medium," but they aren't really a medium, are they? They're a process. A game is only what happens at the table. Writing it down is like codifying fairy tales. As a story process, it's more defined by the fact that there're are a lot of things that could happen that don't.

There are great games that try to do things differently, but it always seems a little like a ballet about archetecture. Media that don't suit the content.