Once upon a time there were some guys who liked to golf.
They enjoyed playing golf, and they enjoyed going to the driving range and just whacking balls for distance. They'd play games on weekends. They would trade stories about golf, and they'd talk about the things golfers found interesting, like what the best clubs to buy and that sort of thing. And they called themselves "golfers" and life was good.
Then, one day, a group of other guys showed up. They were dressed in various "golf costumes" and were talking about golf too, only they were using very loud voices, and talking about how golf was really like painting or fine wine.
This was a bit unusual, but it was a change of pace and it was entertaining for a while, so nobody really complained. So they co-existed peacefully for a time.
However, it soon became apparent that the new guys had only ever actually played miniature golf, and usually only once, a long, long time ago. (They looked upon this miniature golf with disdain though. And to be absolutely truthful, some of them had only watched miniature golf a long time ag and had only the vaguest notion about how it was played). Most of them also realized that the normal way people had been playing golf was not for them, but they were determined to take over this "golfer" hobby. So anyhow, for these new guys, their idea of playing golf now involved taking on the persona of various golf-playing characters. (You know, like one guy would be the "golf pro" and one guy would be the "drunken business exec", and another guy would be the "hopeful caddy" and so on). Instead of actually hitting the balls they usually would just talk (or "narrate" as they liked to say) about how far the balls would fly, and sometimes they'd really get into what the score was. (Had they been KEEPING score. hoho. But that's called "Scorism", and they wanted to examine all facets of the golf hobby.) The new breed of golfers was certainly unusual and they never could agree on anything except one thing. Whatever golf equipment they talked about, or actually carried around-- it was agreed-- the "new golf" the way they played did not involve balls. Ever.
Many of them eventually also come to the conclusion that they didn't actually need real clubs for the game. They played "clubless" golf! It was a whole new way to play golf. And really, this new clubless way to play golf was more fair than ever before. They were certain that the real golfers woul all eventually play clublessly. (It didn't catch on).
And every once in a while if a normal golfer ended up trying to use the golf course for the intended purpose, you'd try to play through and a guy would run out saying "You can't play through here, I've got Slow-Golfer 4d6 right here on my golf scorecard!"
If you went to the driving range there would be a guy out there shaking his body all around and chanting rhymes in order to "get into character" before the big game.
So it was a little weird. And after a while it got offensive.
Eventually they started taking over the golf-courses. They'd be all hanging around the field houses talking about how golf is like marxist politics, or possibly like folklore and mythology. You couldn't get away from them.
And they were constantly trying to sell you stuff. Like they'd have a little booth anywhere you went, where they sold little decorative golf pencils (that didn't actually work) and plaid pants and little packets of glitter and such.
It started to get annoying after a while because they were constantly trying to talk about how much more important their new style of golf was, and how the old way of playing golf could give you a neck-tumor. They determined that only safe way to play "golf" was their way. They scoffed at the old golfers who were stuck in their ancient ways of "hitting the ball" and "keeping score". 'Healthy Play' (as they called it) was all about removing balls (and any player skill) from the game.
Meanwhile, across town, it turns out, many people were still playing real golf. Not the imaginary kind where people would describe their tee and how far the ball went or whatever. But it was just golf. and kids were still playing miniature golf. And people were still buying golf clubs and so on. And the game of golf lived on.
This infuriated the story golfers, but eventually they had to agree that the whole neck tumor thing was pushing it. They finally accepted that they were irrelevant and they eventually all formed a therapy group and joined community theater.
..where they were told that they had no acting talent.
The end.
(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/iloled-pam.jpg)
You rock. In a happy, non-golfy kind of way, unless you're like Alice Cooper golfing that is.
Pretty funny stuff! :win:
I just have to know ... what was the glitter for?
And then there are those who golf only as an excuse to drink. They are amused that both of these groups take the game so seriously.
Quote from: TonyLBPretty funny stuff! :win:
I just have to know ... what was the glitter for?
Well... they're obviously LARPers. It's a spell packet.
It's a nice attempt. But there's something wrong. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it has something to do with the analogy that puts the "traditional" gamers in the role of actually playing golf while the "new movement" golfers are only talking about it.
Unless you're talking about the guys who actually take up medieval combat, some kind of LARPing, or something of that nature, there's something wrong.
Or D&D has changed even more than I thought - and I just played at a con.
Wouldn't it be fair to make the analogy about golf fans?
Sorry to splash water on the fire. When I let myself ignore this, it had funny stuff.
I fear that I'm not going to be invited to your table anymore :p
Quote from: James J SkachIt's a nice attempt. But there's something wrong. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it has something to do with the analogy that puts the "traditional" gamers in the role of actually playing golf while the "new movement" golfers are only talking about it.
Unless you're talking about the guys who actually take up medieval combat, some kind of LARPing, or something of that nature, there's something wrong.
Or D&D has changed even more than I thought - and I just played at a con.
Wouldn't it be fair to make the analogy about golf fans?
Sorry to splash water on the fire. When I let myself ignore this, it had funny stuff.
I fear that I'm not going to be invited to your table anymore :p
Glitter is just for general theatrics, obviously. Those guys are like Rip Taylor or Doug Henning, I imagine. Always tossing glitter around as they enter the green.
Your'e always invited! Man, everyone's invited to play golf. I don't check nametags or demand bloodtests from people before I game with them. It's just a game. People just have to understand, that when we
play golf, it's a game about hitting the ball into the hole, and keeping score. The New Golfers don't just talk about golf-- thats not the problem. The problem is that instead of playing golf, they are actually "performing" golf.
There, that's my issue.
I think it goes back to something fateful written by John Tynes back in the 90s. John Tynes is a hella talented guy, and I have a lot of respect for him, but I think his too-clever description of the roleplaying hobby as "Improvisational Radio Theater" lead to an entire generation that looks at gaming as something you perform rather than play.
Now-- I should point out-- I actually bought into this same belief for a long time. I have a minor in classics and theater. In college I was in 14 plays, 2 musicals, and 4 one-act plays. I have a band that was gigging (almost) monthly until mid 2006 or so. (I'm in a recording hiatus right now). I wrote and performed the score for a play (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/10/AR2005061001959_pf.html) as recently as 2005 that was (favorably) reviewed in the Washington Post. (http://www.curtainup.com/terrorismdc.html)
It was almost natural for me to think "Oh, yeah, this roleplaying thing is all about the acting..it's all about the performance. "
It's totally not.
That's not a sustainable behavior. No wonder people have a hard time getting people to show up to their games, or to keep coming back, week after week, year after year. Normal people don't need that. It's weird and strange. But playing a game? Any joe can do that. And if he likes the game, he'll come back week after week. He may not always be up for turning in a command performance. But if it's rolling some dice and kicking some ass? Who
isn't up for that?
Almost every single behavior that I have a problem with regarding gaming ties back to that conception. "It's my performance". "Don't block my performance". "I'm the star/artist". "Experience a catharsis through my raw emotional skills!" "Alas my character! She hath been de-protaganized!"
WHATEVER.
These guys are doing the roleplaying thing just fine. I'll grant that. Theyre roleplaying the
shit out of it. But they aren't gaming anymore. They've lost the ability.
Gaming without roleplaying is still gaming. Gaming WITH roleplaying.. still gaming. But roleplaying alone, with freeform fuzzy traits and rolling dice for "narration rights".. and doing your improv exercises before you start playing?
This whole romantic notion of storytelling... isn't really gaming. Is it? I grant that it may be fun. It may even be artistic and cathartic and therapeutic and wonderful and all the things people claim. It may even "create stories".
But is it about playing or performing?
I suspect it's just acting with a (completely superfluous) character sheet.
I think the parable misses the variety of golf styles that existed before the golf-artistes appeared on the scene.
Cool!
However, I think it's wrong to throw together the "other golfers" and the "story golfers". There must have been an infight where the latter emerged from the former.
Moreover, I miss the overwhelming "meta league" with the "signature golfers", who dominate over the characters of the "other golfers".
Golf is boring. It's so dull it makes cricket look interesting.
But it wouldn't become more interesting if you removed the clubs and balls.
You could at least have made a parable with something fun.
I think the parable is fitting. Because some people actually play golf for reasons not having to do with the sport at all. They are not there for the game, but for the country club, they so desperately wanted to get into.
And they could extrapolate their intentions unto others.
Reading between the lines, there's a hidden, anti-golf agenda here. Why golf? You find golf funny? What gives you the right to mock golf and use it as a basis for your spurious analogies? Is golf here to provide you with amusement?*
Aside from that, I must remember to tell the guys we're not gaming any more. I'm sure it will shock them all into silence (or into some sort of faux-mime pose with exaggerated emotions). It felt like gaming, it looked like gaming, the snacks tasted like the kind of snack you might eat during gaming.
Cheers
Malcolm
*All said in a Joe Peschi in Goodfellas kind of voice.**
**Do I need to point out sarcasm? I don't know any more. This whole trying to debate things on the internet is beginning to confuse me.***
***Like celebrity magazines, they confuse me as well. I just don't understand them.
Quote from: Malcolm CraigReading between the lines, there's a hidden, anti-golf agenda here. Why golf? You find golf funny? What gives you the right to mock golf and use it as a basis for your spurious analogies? Is golf here to provide you with amusement?*
Aside from that, I must remember to tell the guys we're not gaming any more. I'm sure it will shock them all into silence (or into some sort of faux-mime pose with exaggerated emotions). It felt like gaming, it looked like gaming, the snacks tasted like the kind of snack you might eat during gaming.
Cheers
Malcolm
*All said in a Joe Peschi in Goodfellas kind of voice.**
**Do I need to point out sarcasm? I don't know any more. This whole trying to debate things on the internet is beginning to confuse me.***
***Like celebrity magazines, they confuse me as well. I just don't understand them.
Get the fuck off the golf course Malcolm. We're playing through.
Hell, yeah! Some people cheat! And some people walk and others drive those little buggies. And some people carry their own clubs and others have a caddy. And some people just like to play nine holes and others like to go the full eighteen. And lots of people do business networking on the course. And people like to get lessons so they can improve their game. And divots--they must mean something....
Come to think of it, just about everybody who plays golf is a bit of a wanker.
It's esecially wankery to call it a sport. I mean, some kid carries your bag of clubs, you go for little walks no further than you can whack the little ball, and even then you usually use a little electric car. "Sport"?! Next they'll be saying synchronised swimming should be in the Olympics!
Quote from: Abyssal MawGlitter is just for general theatrics, obviously. Those guys are like Rip Taylor or Doug Henning, I imagine. Always tossing glitter around as they enter the green.
Your'e always invited! Man, everyone's invited to play golf. I don't check nametags or demand bloodtests from people before I game with them. It's just a game. People just have to understand, that when we play golf, it's a game about hitting the ball into the hole, and keeping score. The New Golfers don't just talk about golf-- thats not the problem. The problem is that instead of playing golf, they are actually "performing" golf.
There, that's my issue.
I think it goes back to something fateful written by John Tynes back in the 90s. John Tynes is a hella talented guy, and I have a lot of respect for him, but I think his too-clever description of the roleplaying hobby as "Improvisational Radio Theater" lead to an entire generation that looks at gaming as something you perform rather than play.
Now-- I should point out-- I actually bought into this same belief for a long time. I have a minor in classics and theater. In college I was in 14 plays, 2 musicals, and 4 one-act plays. I have a band that was gigging (almost) monthly until mid 2006 or so. (I'm in a recording hiatus right now). I wrote and performed the score for a play (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/10/AR2005061001959_pf.html) as recently as 2005 that was (favorably) reviewed in the Washington Post. (http://www.curtainup.com/terrorismdc.html)
It was almost natural for me to think "Oh, yeah, this roleplaying thing is all about the acting..it's all about the performance. "
It's totally not.
That's not a sustainable behavior. No wonder people have a hard time getting people to show up to their games, or to keep coming back, week after week, year after year. Normal people don't need that. It's weird and strange. But playing a game? Any joe can do that. And if he likes the game, he'll come back week after week. He may not always be up for turning in a command performance. But if it's rolling some dice and kicking some ass? Who isn't up for that?
Almost every single behavior that I have a problem with regarding gaming ties back to that conception. "It's my performance". "Don't block my performance". "I'm the star/artist". "Experience a catharsis through my raw emotional skills!" "Alas my character! She hath been de-protaganized!"
WHATEVER.
These guys are doing the roleplaying thing just fine. I'll grant that. Theyre roleplaying the shit out of it. But they aren't gaming anymore. They've lost the ability.
Gaming without roleplaying is still gaming. Gaming WITH roleplaying.. still gaming. But roleplaying alone, with freeform fuzzy traits and rolling dice for "narration rights".. and doing your improv exercises before you start playing?
This whole romantic notion of storytelling... isn't really gaming. Is it? I grant that it may be fun. It may even be artistic and cathartic and therapeutic and wonderful and all the things people claim. It may even "create stories".
But is it about playing or performing?
I suspect it's just acting with a (completely superfluous) character sheet.
OK, I get it. But what if the metaphor was more about how the other golfers, who still played golf, didn't care about driving or putting or scores, but were more interested in the relationships between the golfers or how the golfers treated the caddys, or the soap opera that was going on between the country club members - golf was a side issue.
Because I don't think they aren't, necessarily, playing a game. I think there are fringe efforts that get so close to removing any/all game elements that you could make that accusation. But what I see, mostly, are people who are simply focusing on different shit in their gaming and using different tools to achieve their goals.
And as I've said all along, more power to them - as long as they don't try to imply, insinuate, or explicitly assert that any one way is inherently better/right/superior/more sophisticated/higher quality/blah blah blah.
And as much as I think I'd love to play D&D with you, AM, I think you fall into the "Pundit Trap." That is, in the defense of your own tastes, you are diminishing the choices of others. Which, IMHO, is of little difference from the story-gamers who do the same thing to D&D.
Quote from: James J SkachAnd as I've said all along, more power to them - as long as they don't try to imply, insinuate, or explicitly assert that any one way is inherently better/right/superior/more sophisticated/higher quality/blah blah blah.
...
I think you fall into the "Pundit Trap." That is, in the defense of your own tastes, you are diminishing the choices of others. Which, IMHO, is of little difference from the story-gamers who do the same thing to D&D.
That's probably true. I was all for co-existence at one point, but what I found out was many of these pigs were taking advantage of our collective good nature and our communities to elevate themselves at everyone else's expense.
I'm no longer willing to let it go unchallenged! It seems harsh sometimes, but I think they'll be happier too once they realize they don't need dice or even conventions. They can all become civil war re-enactors or prop comics or renfair dudes or whatever the hell else, if they want. They'll be so much happier if they just admit to themselves that they've got nothing to do with gaming. The possibilities are endless!
Seriously! Slam poets? buskers? mimes? There's so many options!
Quote from: Abyssal MawGet the fuck off the golf course Malcolm. We're playing through.
I think you just sliced into the rough. Allow me to loan you my mashie niblic.
Cheers
Malcolm
Quote from: Malcolm CraigI think you just sliced into the rough. Allow me to loan you my mashie niblic.
Cheers
Malcolm
Ok, seriously. You can totally do "walking against the wind", right? Or that one where your'e trapped inside the invisible box?
I bet you could totally do that!
Quote from: Abyssal MawOk, seriously. You can totally do "walking against the wind", right? Or that one where your'e trapped inside the invisible box?
I bet you could totally do that!
"carrying the invisible sheet of glass" is a popular favourite at parties. "the invisible basketball" moreso at nightclubs.
Cheers
Malcolm
But can you do the invisible buttsecks?
(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/invisible_buttsecks.jpg)
:!pics:
Quote from: Sosthenes:!pics:
Aw, come on, after I went through all the trouble for these invisible basketball pics?
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s279/ElectroKitty/InvisibleBasketball.jpg) (http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s279/ElectroKitty/invisiblebasketballrebound.jpg)
Quote from: Malcolm Craig"carrying the invisible sheet of glass" is a popular favourite at parties.
I am unimpressed by the quality of these parties.
Quote from: Levi KornelsenI am unimpressed by the quality of these parties.
I'm going to start a career counseling service for these guys.
Instead of selling mediocre Sorcerer supplements, for example, some of you guys
could be selling leather mugs at a rennaissance fair. You'll be standing there in a beret or something saying "Would you care to sample my wares, milady?"
OR, how about this..
infomercial appliance demonstrator. This one is good for people who can generate a lot false enthusiasm. You'll be behind the counter saying "That's amazing, I just
can't believe how quickly those muffins came out! Isn't it amazing everyone?"
And there's totally going to be applause. PTA fan mail will totally pale in comparison to the studio audience's amazement at whatever device you are demonstrating. AND you can still go to conventions. Just not gaming conventions.
Doesn't that sound better for you guys than gaming?
Quote from: Abyssal MawBut roleplaying alone, with freeform fuzzy traits and rolling dice for "narration rights".. and doing your improv exercises before you start playing?
Freeform fuzzy traits have nothing to do with your argued storytelling/rpg divide.
Seriously dude, any theory which has OtE or UA as not being a game is fucked up, the fact several (though not even most) story games use freeform traits notwithstanding.
Hell, next you'll be telling me the d20 is a storytelling technique because Donjon uses it a lot.
Quote from: Abyssal Mawyou guys
Sorry, I don't feel adressed by your story.
Quote from: Levi KornelsenSorry, I don't feel adressed by your story.
(http://www.idmonsters.com/archives/images/GiantRobot.jpg)
Johnny Sokko's Giant Robot failed to parse your sentence and let the Giant Monster destroy Tokyo!
I hope you're happy.
I love that robot picture!
Quote from: Abyssal MawOR, how about this.. infomercial appliance demonstrator. This one is good for people who can generate a lot false enthusiasm. You'll be behind the counter saying "That's amazing, I just can't believe how quickly those muffins came out! Isn't it amazing everyone?"
And there's totally going to be applause. PTA fan mail will totally pale in comparison to the studio audience's amazement at whatever device you are demonstrating. AND you can still go to conventions. Just not gaming conventions.
Doesn't that sound better for you guys than gaming?
I do that for a living, in a retail environment. It's awful enough already without the Forge being involved.
Golf is a good walk spoiled.
I didn't find the parable particularly amusing, due largely to the appearance that "traditional" RPGers are being cast as the aggrieved party. That and the hyperbole.
I golf on occasion, and ski on occasion, and sail and kayak on occasion, I can attest that there are people out there with a much greater vested interest in the various sports who feel that they enjoy what they're doing far more than I do, sometimes vocally so. I can also attest that there are "traditional" gamers out there who feel that they enjoy the hobby far more than I do, sometimes vocally so. And, in case anyone is interested, there are times that I feel entitled to shit on these other people's fun by telling them that they're taking their hobbies too seriously. Boo-hoo, poor me.
!i!
Quote from: Abyssal MawI'm going to start a career counseling service for these guys.
Instead of selling mediocre Sorcerer supplements, for example, some of you guys could be selling leather mugs at a rennaissance fair. You'll be standing there in a beret or something saying "Would you care to sample my wares, milady?"
OR, how about this.. infomercial appliance demonstrator. This one is good for people who can generate a lot false enthusiasm. You'll be behind the counter saying "That's amazing, I just can't believe how quickly those muffins came out! Isn't it amazing everyone?"
And there's totally going to be applause. PTA fan mail will totally pale in comparison to the studio audience's amazement at whatever device you are demonstrating. AND you can still go to conventions. Just not gaming conventions.
Doesn't that sound better for you guys than gaming?
No.
Cheers
Malcolm