It's esecially wankery to call it a sport. I mean, some kid carries your bag of clubs, you go for little walks no further than you can whack the little ball, and even then you usually use a little electric car. "Sport"?! Next they'll be saying synchronised swimming should be in the Olympics!

Quote from: Abyssal MawGlitter is just for general theatrics, obviously. Those guys are like Rip Taylor or Doug Henning, I imagine. Always tossing glitter around as they enter the green.

Your'e always invited! Man, everyone's invited to play golf. I don't check nametags or demand bloodtests from people before I game with them. It's just a game. People just have to understand, that when we play golf, it's a game about hitting the ball into the hole, and keeping score. The New Golfers don't just talk about golf-- thats not the problem.  The problem is that instead of playing golf, they are actually "performing" golf.

There, that's my issue.

I think it goes back to something fateful written by John Tynes back in the 90s. John Tynes is a hella talented guy, and I have a lot of respect for him, but I think his too-clever description of the roleplaying hobby as "Improvisational Radio Theater" lead to an entire generation that looks at gaming as something you perform rather than play.

Now-- I should point out-- I actually bought into this same belief for a long time. I have a minor in classics and theater. In college I was in 14 plays, 2 musicals, and 4 one-act plays. I have a band that was gigging (almost) monthly until mid 2006 or so. (I'm in a recording hiatus right now). I wrote and performed the score for a play as recently as 2005 that was (favorably) reviewed in the Washington Post.  

It was almost natural for me to think "Oh, yeah, this roleplaying thing is all about the acting..it's all about the performance. "

It's totally not.

That's not a sustainable behavior. No wonder people have a hard time getting people to show up to their games, or to keep coming back, week after week, year after year. Normal people don't need that. It's weird and strange. But playing a game? Any joe can do that. And if he likes the game, he'll come back week after week. He may not always be up for turning in a command performance. But if it's rolling some dice and kicking some ass? Who isn't up for that?

Almost every single behavior that I have a problem with regarding gaming ties back to that conception. "It's my performance". "Don't block my performance". "I'm the star/artist". "Experience a catharsis through my raw emotional skills!" "Alas my character! She hath been de-protaganized!"

WHATEVER.

These guys are doing the roleplaying thing just fine. I'll grant that. Theyre roleplaying the shit out of it. But they aren't gaming anymore. They've lost the ability.

Gaming without roleplaying is still gaming. Gaming WITH roleplaying.. still gaming. But roleplaying alone, with freeform fuzzy traits and rolling dice for "narration rights".. and doing your improv exercises before you start playing?
This whole romantic notion of storytelling... isn't really gaming. Is it? I grant that it may be fun. It may even be artistic and cathartic and therapeutic and wonderful and all the things people claim. It may even "create stories".

But is it about playing or performing?

I suspect it's just acting with a (completely superfluous) character sheet.

OK, I get it.  But what if the metaphor was more about how the other golfers, who still played golf, didn't care about driving or putting or scores, but were more interested in the relationships between the golfers or how the golfers treated the caddys, or the soap opera that was going on between the country club members - golf was a side issue.

Because I don't think they aren't, necessarily, playing a game.  I think there are fringe efforts that get so close to removing any/all game elements that you could make that accusation.  But what I see, mostly, are people who are simply focusing on different shit in their gaming and using different tools to achieve their goals.

And as I've said all along, more power to them - as long as they don't try to imply, insinuate, or explicitly assert that any one way is inherently better/right/superior/more sophisticated/higher quality/blah blah blah.

And as much as I think I'd love to play D&D with you, AM, I think you fall into the "Pundit Trap."  That is, in the defense of your own tastes, you are diminishing the choices of others. Which, IMHO, is of little difference from the story-gamers who do the same thing to D&D.

Quote from: James J SkachAnd as I've said all along, more power to them - as long as they don't try to imply, insinuate, or explicitly assert that any one way is inherently better/right/superior/more sophisticated/higher quality/blah blah blah.

...

 I think you fall into the "Pundit Trap."  That is, in the defense of your own tastes, you are diminishing the choices of others. Which, IMHO, is of little difference from the story-gamers who do the same thing to D&D.

That's probably true. I was all for co-existence at one point, but what I found out was many of these pigs were taking advantage of our collective good nature and our communities to elevate themselves at everyone else's expense.

I'm no longer willing to let it go unchallenged! It seems harsh sometimes, but I think they'll be happier too once they realize they don't need dice or even conventions.  They can all become civil war re-enactors or prop comics or renfair dudes or whatever the hell else, if they want. They'll be so much happier if they just admit to themselves that they've got nothing to do with gaming. The possibilities are endless!

Seriously! Slam poets? buskers? mimes? There's so many options!

Quote from: Abyssal MawGet the fuck off the golf course Malcolm. We're playing through.

I think you just sliced into the rough. Allow me to loan you my mashie niblic.

Cheers
Malcolm

Quote from: Malcolm CraigI think you just sliced into the rough. Allow me to loan you my mashie niblic.

Cheers
Malcolm

Ok, seriously. You can totally do "walking against the wind", right?  Or that one where your'e trapped inside the invisible box?

I bet you could totally do that!

Quote from: Abyssal MawOk, seriously. You can totally do "walking against the wind", right?  Or that one where your'e trapped inside the invisible box?

I bet you could totally do that!

"carrying the invisible sheet of glass" is a popular favourite at parties. "the invisible basketball" moreso at nightclubs.

Cheers
Malcolm

But can you do the invisible buttsecks?

:!pics:

Quote from: Sosthenes:!pics:

Aw, come on, after I went through all the trouble for these invisible basketball pics?

Quote from: Malcolm Craig"carrying the invisible sheet of glass" is a popular favourite at parties.

I am unimpressed by the quality of these parties.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI am unimpressed by the quality of these parties.

I'm going to start a career counseling service for these guys.

Instead of selling mediocre Sorcerer supplements, for example, some of you guys could be selling leather mugs at a rennaissance fair. You'll be standing there in a beret or something saying "Would you care to sample my wares, milady?"

OR, how about this.. infomercial appliance demonstrator. This one is good for people who can generate a lot false enthusiasm. You'll be behind the counter saying "That's amazing, I just can't believe how quickly those muffins came out! Isn't it amazing everyone?"

And there's totally going to be applause. PTA fan mail will totally pale in comparison to the studio audience's amazement at whatever device you are demonstrating. AND you can still go to conventions. Just not gaming conventions.

Doesn't that sound better for you guys than gaming?

Quote from: Abyssal MawBut roleplaying alone, with freeform fuzzy traits and rolling dice for "narration rights".. and doing your improv exercises before you start playing?

Freeform fuzzy traits have nothing to do with your argued storytelling/rpg divide.

Seriously dude, any theory which has OtE or UA as not being a game is fucked up, the fact several (though not even most) story games use freeform traits notwithstanding.

Hell, next you'll be telling me the d20 is a storytelling technique because Donjon uses it a lot.

Quote from: Abyssal Mawyou guys

Sorry, I don't feel adressed by your story.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenSorry, I don't feel adressed by your story.

Johnny Sokko's Giant Robot failed to parse your sentence and let the Giant Monster destroy Tokyo!

I hope you're happy.

I love that robot picture!