Quote from: Jaeger on October 05, 2022, 08:29:02 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on October 05, 2022, 07:51:32 PM
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But you used those quotes as evidence against people "who think it will be just another VTT.". Case in point, Geeky interpreted them to justify his position that they are going for a one true way.

I don't know if they are or they aren't going for a one true way. But I do know there has been no evidence presented. Just option and guesses. Right?

What do you think the fallout of the OneVTT will be?

One option is that WotC pooches it, and One VTT will be just another VTT. Another is that they really pooch it and it ends up harming their precious brand.

But,... If they don't pooch it, and succeed in bringing in the majority of 5e players to one platform - then they will be the dominant VTT out there.

That could easily happen more readily than many are evidently willing to admit.

I agree here with several points as I have seen this on smaller scales with other product and venues. In the end this is just Adventurers League organized play extended to the online gaming. Which it was already doing

I think though that it will be more a cyclic thing.

WOTC will mandate rules enforcements to their VTT. The VTT will mandate that to players. Players will mandate that to DMs.

The test is at what points resistance builds, and how much. AL has not had as big an impact as some of us expected. But it has had an impact and a detrimental one far more than any here try, and are still trying, to deny.

Quote from: Osman Gazi on October 07, 2022, 09:07:59 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on October 06, 2022, 08:27:58 PM
Billy Graham preached against D&D. I remember my grandmother talking about him warning his congregation about it.

I don't remember Billy Graham specifically talking about it, but your grandmother might be remembering correctly.  Her memory might be better than mine.

Yeah he did. I saw at least one of his broadcasts back when they had their own TV channel. Him or one of the others were also going on about the Transformers and how evil that was and on and on ad nausium. They'd repeat this stuff at least once a month. Greenwald was the prime lunatic of the lot though.

As for the Satanic Panic denialists. I hope you fuckers get to some day suffer like the some of us did.

Quote from: Omega on October 07, 2022, 09:44:36 AM

As for the Satanic Panic denialists. I hope you fuckers get to some day suffer like the some of us did.

It's your hypocrisy on this point that causes me to lose any respect for your position.  You are willing to judge an entire group of people on the basis of a curated slice, but mad that gamers get a bad rep using the exact same means.  Meanwhile, the press laughs and laughs at yet another example of Gell Mann Amnesia. It's an effect so pervasive that even though Crichton named it and you invoke it in other contexts, your uncontrolled hatred makes you incapable of seeing past your own narrow experiences.  It's truly in all senses of the word, pathetic.

Quote from: Omega on October 07, 2022, 09:44:36 AM

Quote from: Osman Gazi on October 07, 2022, 09:07:59 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on October 06, 2022, 08:27:58 PM
Billy Graham preached against D&D. I remember my grandmother talking about him warning his congregation about it.

I don't remember Billy Graham specifically talking about it, but your grandmother might be remembering correctly.  Her memory might be better than mine.

Yeah he did. I saw at least one of his broadcasts back when they had their own TV channel. Him or one of the others were also going on about the Transformers and how evil that was and on and on ad nausium. They'd repeat this stuff at least once a month. Greenwald was the prime lunatic of the lot though.

As for the Satanic Panic denialists. I hope you fuckers get to some day suffer like the some of us did.

Ironically, there's not a small group of conspiracy theorists who place old Billy himself at the heart of being a Satanist himself.  Googling will bring up some rather..."interesting" theories about this.  (And by "interesting" I mean mind-blowingly ridiculous and utterly stupid).

No doubt that there were some people in the hobby hurt by false accusations of Satanism.  And if you're the victim of those accusations, it's pretty hard to minimize it, even if you're one of a small minority of victims.  I obviously don't know your particular situation, and I'm sorry about how people in that time period of insanity caused you suffering. 

I don't know of people who suffered more than people like the owners and workers at the McMartin Preschool, enduring years of false accusations of horrific child abuse, or the parents falsely accused in the bogus "Recovered Memory" movement of that time period.  Their names were smeared across the headlines and nightly news, and life will never return to normal.

I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone--their lives will never be the same.  And wishing that pain on others because they didn't think it was that widespread?  Dude, that's pretty messed up.

Quote from: Jaeger on October 06, 2022, 08:54:24 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on October 06, 2022, 08:27:58 PM
Billy Graham preached against D&D. I remember my grandmother talking about him warning his congregation about it.

That makes sense. The whole "D&D is the devil" part of the satanic panic was a grift from the beginning.

OneDND may be a grift. 
Deuteronomy 18:10-11

Quote from: Ruprecht on October 07, 2022, 08:54:39 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 07, 2022, 08:08:18 AM
I barely escaped the actual toxic old school AD&D back in the day with my interest in rpgs intact.

Good for you, I've yet to see an example of toxic AD&D that was convincing. Most examples come off as wankers trying i impress their woke friends with how bad things are by using made up things or quotes from Gary that are outside the text of the games or vastly overblown in importance (he used the word Savage!!!).

Oh, in this case it was a rabidly anti-Christian DM (back in the late 80's when he was only one at the only local game store I could reach without needing a ride from my parents to the one across town) who took his beef with Christians out on anyone who was one... up to and including only allowing healing from clerics and only if the player (not the PC) professed belief in whatever the hell version of faux Norse paganism he was into and if your PC didn't try and convert everyone they came across (by explaining the doctrines of his pagan faith) then it would be a lapse in faith requiring you to atone before you'd get any more spells. It almost drove me from RPG's entirely.

It might be guilt by association, but because of that experience, all things TSR D&D adjacent invoke a visceral distaste in me.

Quote from: Ruprecht on October 07, 2022, 08:54:39 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 07, 2022, 08:08:18 AM
So, while I agree there needs to be a subset of a subset... it needs to be BIGGER than just the toxic OSR.

I also disagree the OSR is toxic. Of the few outright political members of the OSR I don't think any actually put toxic content into their publications. It is just that those that hate them don't actually play so they don't realize the distinction.

Then I invite you to try using some of Pundit's GM advice on players who haven't already bought into the OSR mentality. I've only ever seen his advice drive people away from gaming when its followed.

The fact that you, someone who is already a part of the OSR, doesn't think its toxic does nothing to convince those who see the movement from the outside as a bunch of One True Wayists who's only real beef with the Woke is that they aren't the one in the position to determine how most rpgs get played and they'd be just as tyrannical if they ever got authority.

I'm glad you like the OSR. I've tried old-school play and I found it unenjoyable. I have limited free time, so I'm not going to waste it playing something I don't enjoy because its disciples keep echoing the equivalent of the Communist bromide that "you just haven't tried a REAL OSR game yet."

Pundits advice is not in any of his products. If one didn't search him out online and judged based on his products you would have no idea what his politics are.

Quote from: Osman Gazi on October 07, 2022, 10:00:10 AM

Quote from: Omega on October 07, 2022, 09:44:36 AM

Quote from: Osman Gazi on October 07, 2022, 09:07:59 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on October 06, 2022, 08:27:58 PM
Billy Graham preached against D&D. I remember my grandmother talking about him warning his congregation about it.

I don't remember Billy Graham specifically talking about it, but your grandmother might be remembering correctly.  Her memory might be better than mine.

Yeah he did. I saw at least one of his broadcasts back when they had their own TV channel. Him or one of the others were also going on about the Transformers and how evil that was and on and on ad nausium. They'd repeat this stuff at least once a month. Greenwald was the prime lunatic of the lot though.

As for the Satanic Panic denialists. I hope you fuckers get to some day suffer like the some of us did.

Ironically, there's not a small group of conspiracy theorists who place old Billy himself at the heart of being a Satanist himself.  Googling will bring up some rather..."interesting" theories about this.  (And by "interesting" I mean mind-blowingly ridiculous and utterly stupid).

No doubt that there were some people in the hobby hurt by false accusations of Satanism.  And if you're the victim of those accusations, it's pretty hard to minimize it, even if you're one of a small minority of victims.  I obviously don't know your particular situation, and I'm sorry about how people in that time period of insanity caused you suffering. 

I don't know of people who suffered more than people like the owners and workers at the McMartin Preschool, enduring years of false accusations of horrific child abuse, or the parents falsely accused in the bogus "Recovered Memory" movement of that time period.  Their names were smeared across the headlines and nightly news, and life will never return to normal.

I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone--their lives will never be the same.  And wishing that pain on others because they didn't think it was that widespread?  Dude, that's pretty messed up.

Yeah, I wouldn't go as far as Omega on wishing suffering on others over online disagreements. But I do find it worrisome that so many people here like to downplay the real scope of the Satanic Panic when so many people's lives were ruined because of it. But hey, their church didn't bring up D&D specifically, therefore persecution outside the hobby never happened and people didn't have their lives destroyed over false accusations. And anyone saying otherwise was brainwashed by the media and didn't experience religious lunatics personally.

Interestingly enough I've seen similar attempts to downplay what's going on with the woke hysteria in the "left" by less politically involved people, or those who still cling to the "left-wing" label and are in denial, who want to believe that it's only a fringe minority or an astroturf movement taken out of context by equally bad right-wing media. As opposed to a valid concern that has many former leftists running away from the left (myself included) or getting cancelled and treated like Nazis for not towing the line, or commiting some faux pas that gets blown out of proportion. Yet I doubt many here would award the same courtesy to such attempts to salvage the "left" as they do to Christianity's involvement in the Satanic Panic.

Quote from: Ruprecht on October 08, 2022, 01:33:57 AM
Pundits advice is not in any of his products. If one didn't search him out online and judged based on his products you would have no idea what his politics are.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the OSR is "toxic" per se (at least not in its entirety) or that AD&D was toxic (bad experiences with a singular individual do not translate as toxicity from the entire game population, or being promoted by the game itself). But Pundit's advice, or similar views, are echoed by many in the OSR. And I've seen many in the OSR toss generalized accusations at people who play other systems or editions, or talk smack about those games, only to get bend out of shape the moment anyone criticizes them, and pretend that it's all coming in one direction, as opposed to everyone trash talking other games or play styles.

The difference is most people who play other systems or have different play styles don't band around a particular label or fantastically promote it as a game philosophy, or the salvation of the hobby. Only the OSR does that (or at least, a vocal faction of them).

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 08, 2022, 11:44:17 AM
The difference is most people who play other systems or have different play styles don't band around a particular label or fantastically promote it as a game philosophy, or the salvation of the hobby. Only the OSR does that (or at least, a vocal faction of them).

I think that is inaccurate. The story game movement for example was particularly hostile and demeaning to other styles of play. It was the salvation of the hobby until it sort of faded away. Also I think you have things backwards. What is coming out of WoTC and Paizo (the biggest players in the RPG world) about everything being racist or sexist is super toxic. Most of what you see as toxic behavior in the OSR is actual in reaction to that.

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 08, 2022, 11:30:24 AM
Yeah, I wouldn't go as far as Omega on wishing suffering on others over online disagreements. But I do find it worrisome that so many people here like to downplay the real scope of the Satanic Panic when so many people's lives were ruined because of it. But hey, their church didn't bring up D&D specifically, therefore persecution outside the hobby never happened and people didn't have their lives destroyed over false accusations. And anyone saying otherwise was brainwashed by the media and didn't experience religious lunatics personally.

Interestingly enough I've seen similar attempts to downplay what's going on with the woke hysteria in the "left" by less politically involved people, or those who still cling to the "left-wing" label and are in denial, who want to believe that it's only a fringe minority or an astroturf movement taken out of context by equally bad right-wing media. As opposed to a valid concern that has many former leftists running away from the left (myself included) or getting cancelled and treated like Nazis for not towing the line, or commiting some faux pas that gets blown out of proportion. Yet I doubt many here would award the same courtesy to such attempts to salvage the "left" as they do to Christianity's involvement in the Satanic Panic.

Particular people being strongly affected versus widespread are two different things.  You are talking depth instead of scope.  The Satanic panic was sharp and pointed where it was applied, but it was limited in scope--not least because not all that many people agreed with it, it was not strongly backed by any institution, and the institutions that did back it at all did so inconsistently, and it simply wasn't on the radar at all for the vast majority of people.  Some people cling to the idea that it was wide spread for who knows what reason.  Mainly, I think it's a crutch to hide insecurity.  It's telling that 30 years after it is no longer a thing, there can't be a discussion about the woke without it getting brought up as somehow equal. 

Meanwhile, the woke infects academia, the media, many parts of politics, culture, the arts, business (especially HR departments), religious faiths, and even sports.  It's pervasive, and actively after everyone.  To equate that to the scope of the Satanic panic is the height of delusion and blindness.   It seems there are always an awful lot of people that have never met any conservative Christian that are sure that everything said about them must be true, almost as if it was necessary for their own identity for it to be that way.  Hmm.

Quote from: Ruprecht on October 08, 2022, 12:17:01 PMThe story game movement

Ah yes, the Story game movement. That boogeyman the OSR folks can never let go because they called them names more then a decade ago and then died. And because they called them names, they can call everybody else names - forever.

No, OSR'rs where calling people names way before WOTC started making their changes for 5e and even 4e.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2022, 01:29:53 AM
The fact that you, someone who is already a part of the OSR, doesn't think its toxic does nothing to convince those who see the movement from the outside as a bunch of One True Wayists who's only real beef with the Woke is that they aren't the one in the position to determine how most rpgs get played and they'd be just as tyrannical if they ever got authority.

I'm glad you like the OSR. I've tried old-school play and I found it unenjoyable. I have limited free time, so I'm not going to waste it playing something I don't enjoy because its disciples keep echoing the equivalent of the Communist bromide that "you just haven't tried a REAL OSR game yet."

   I'm not OSR, but I'm adjacent to people on social media who are, and IMO, it's a broad movement ranging from 'this is a fun way to play' to 'our specific variation of it is the only way to play any RPG, and the key to making gaming into a mass-appeal hobby.' (The latter have convinced me that the AD&D strand of gaming is probably too rooted in wargaming and multipolar, open-table campaigns to fit what I'd like to do with gaming, although I'm experimenting with their approach right now.)

   The things they generally agree on are a) old D&D in some form is worth playing and b) WotC and Paizo are not to be trusted.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 08, 2022, 01:41:30 PM
Ah yes, the Story game movement. That boogeyman the OSR folks can never let go because they called them names more then a decade ago and then died.

Sorry to trigger you but an example that makes the point is a good example even if it has been used before. The example was not used as an excuse for OSR toxicity but as an example that the OSR, if toxic, is not alone. I then followed with an example of how the big companies are also toxic now.

Quote from: Ruprecht on October 08, 2022, 12:17:01 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 08, 2022, 11:44:17 AM
The difference is most people who play other systems or have different play styles don't band around a particular label or fantastically promote it as a game philosophy, or the salvation of the hobby. Only the OSR does that (or at least, a vocal faction of them).

I think that is inaccurate. The story game movement for example was particularly hostile and demeaning to other styles of play. It was the salvation of the hobby until it sort of faded away. Also I think you have things backwards. What is coming out of WoTC and Paizo (the biggest players in the RPG world) about everything being racist or sexist is super toxic. Most of what you see as toxic behavior in the OSR is actual in reaction to that.

Yeah, I forgot about the storygame movement. I was sorta on hiatus during that time and didn't pay much attention to TTRPGs online back then, so I wasn't really affected by it. But I suppose that was bad as well. I hardly ever hear about story games these days unless it's people crapping on them, though (even in other boards), but the OSR is alive and well.

I'm not talking about the OSR's attitude towards politics, which is not even universal and there are people ostensibly in the OSR who're on the other political side as well, and not everyone against wokism in gaming is OSR anyways. I'm talking about their attitude about gaming, where everything old school is seen as superior, and everything about modern RPGs is seen as the downfall of the hobby and (for the anti-SJW portion of the OSR at least) an invitation for the woke mob to bring an incursion into the hobby.

• Character creation should always be random (specially ability score generation).
• Roll 3d6 in order is the solution to everything.
• Level limits are the silver bullet solution to handling race balance (nevermind that capping levels addresses absolutely nothing).
• Lack of game features are itself a feature, not the absence of one, because "rulings not rules".
• Skills exist out of some people's need to codify everything into rules (not the desire to define a character's specific knowledge or expertise), because they don't understand everything should be "rulings not rules".
• Eliminating racial class restrictions was the beginning of the end.
• And player options were the thing that facilitated snowflake characters, opened up the kitchen sink and ultimately attracted SJWs into the hobby. Etc.

.