And lets also separate subscription from the new X as service.

A book/magazine series may be a subscription. You get each new book at a discount but once you stop subscribing you retain everything up till that point. In addition they can't really edit what you have.

Roll20/ World of Warcraft is more X as service. As you loose alot of stuff/everything when you stop subscribing, making stopping doing so more difficult. You also have to go along with any changes imposed on you.

The two are NOT enterchangable. Yet many times defenses for X as service are defended with X as subscription.

Quote from: rytrasmi on September 02, 2022, 03:12:17 PM
What's more, the author of subscribed material doesn't have to do great work. He can do average work, just good enough so that the cancelation rate is manageable. The author can see the cancelation rate and the new subscriber rate in real time, so he knows exactly how hard to try. He is not motivated to do his best work.

The subscription model flips the business upside down: Instead of "Show me good material and I might buy it" we have "Pay for good material and I might supply it." Even worse, new material trickles out (compared to a book release), so it's hard to judge whether quality and rate good or not. There's always next month, and hoping is easier than canceling.

I have no problem with Patreon or KS style pre-orders especially when it's a small guy. But this is WotC/Hasbro and they have no reason to flip the model other than greed.

*If* a creator is in the business for the long-term, then they are just as motivated to put in best effort. The subscription model mutes the peaks and valleys somewhat, but long-term prospects depends critically on overall quality. Much like with any series from a creator, the creator can think "Well, #6 in the series sucks - but people will still keep coming for #7." But any bad material reduces overall interest.

Patreon and Kickstarter are enabling of short-term scams where the creator puts out a lousy product and gets a bunch of money for it. But then they'll get very little (if anything) for their next project. So if someone is in it for the long-term (as a big company would be), then they won't want to do this.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 03, 2022, 11:05:27 AM
And lets also separate subscription from the new X as service.

A book/magazine series may be a subscription. You get each new book at a discount but once you stop subscribing you retain everything up till that point. In addition they can't really edit what you have.

Roll20/ World of Warcraft is more X as service. As you loose alot of stuff/everything when you stop subscribing, making stopping doing so more difficult. You also have to go along with any changes imposed on you.

Yes, agreed there is a difference. With subscription licensing, you only have access to the product as long as you keep paying. Once you stop paying, you no longer have anything. It's like leasing a car without the option to buy, a service like Spotify, or World of Warcraft (as I understand it).

As one more variation, there are permanent licenses - like buying a game on Steam or buying a movie on Amazon Prime. It's a one time purchase and you then have access to the product permanently, but it's still maintained by the company and you only have access through their service.

As I said, I've always bought my car, never leased. I've never used Spotify - I own the music that I play as MP3s. I don't play World of Warcraft or any other subscription games. Still, I have used some subscription licensed services, like movie/TV channels and some software.

Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 03:59:36 PMAs I said, I've always bought my car, never leased. I've never used Spotify - I own the music that I play as MP3s. I don't play World of Warcraft or any other subscription games. Still, I have used some subscription licensed services, like movie/TV channels and some software.

How to put it. Motive is everything. Is the people behind a product are motivated primarily with making a good product, then even a X as service model, if they truly picked it for this reason, would be the best thing you could experience it as. Some people like MMOs, even if it means loosing everything at the end. And MMO's are not inherently evil. Servers cost allot to maintain, and expansions cost money to develop.

But this is almost transperantly not what is happening (as evidenced by the pressure on MTG for instance). Making more money isn't a problem. Its the motivation how to do it, as well as how the people that want to make the money see their customers, as well as the self-respect the customers have for themselves.

Its like...playing devils advocate for hitler after he had invaded france. Re-taking lost territories? Maybe. Poland? OK already bad but I guess its small. France? OK thats just wrath and greed.
This isn't coming from a bunch of devs thinking 'How do we deliver the best product delivery system'. Its coming from men in suits that want to prey on the thick and weak willed.

In no way do I see a way that TTRPGs as a service model needs to exist that can't be under a subscription or some other model. I can't imagine any benefits it offers (even excluding all the inherent drawbacks) that really justify its existence.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 03, 2022, 06:49:30 PM
Its like...playing devils advocate for hitler after he had invaded france. Re-taking lost territories? Maybe. Poland? OK already bad but I guess its small. France? OK thats just wrath and greed.
This isn't coming from a bunch of devs thinking 'How do we deliver the best product delivery system'. Its coming from men in suits that want to prey on the thick and weak willed.

Comparing a company selling a game to Hitler invading France sounds insanely over-the-top to me.

This isn't selling drugs or casino games. There have been some detractors charging that D&D is addictive since back in the 1980s, but I think their arguments are ultimately flawed - and psychological studies have backed that up. D&D is popular because it is fun. It is no more addictive than any other game. The same goes for X-as-a-service products like Spotify. I might not buy into it personally, but I don't think it is comparable to Hitler.

I am reminded of anti-D&D activists of the 1980s saying how I was being mind-controlled, or Ron Edwards in the 2000s talking about the "brain damage" of White Wolf players. I don't believe these. There is no mind control hidden in tabletop RPGs. The people who are playing WotC D&D are doing so because they find it fun, not because the evil corporation has warped their brains.

Quote from: jhkim on September 04, 2022, 12:35:22 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 03, 2022, 06:49:30 PM
Its like...playing devils advocate for hitler after he had invaded france. Re-taking lost territories? Maybe. Poland? OK already bad but I guess its small. France? OK thats just wrath and greed.
This isn't coming from a bunch of devs thinking 'How do we deliver the best product delivery system'. Its coming from men in suits that want to prey on the thick and weak willed.

Comparing a company selling a game to Hitler invading France sounds insanely over-the-top to me.

This isn't selling drugs or casino games. There have been some detractors charging that D&D is addictive since back in the 1980s, but I think their arguments are ultimately flawed - and psychological studies have backed that up. D&D is popular because it is fun. It is no more addictive than any other game. The same goes for X-as-a-service products like Spotify. I might not buy into it personally, but I don't think it is comparable to Hitler.

I am reminded of anti-D&D activists of the 1980s saying how I was being mind-controlled, or Ron Edwards in the 2000s talking about the "brain damage" of White Wolf players. I don't believe these. There is no mind control hidden in tabletop RPGs. The people who are playing WotC D&D are doing so because they find it fun, not because the evil corporation has warped their brains.

But you choosing to address the OBVIOUS hyperbole and not his valid point and then comparing critics of OneD&D with the people pushing the satanic panic doesn't "sound insanely over-the-top" to you?

Quote from: jhkim on September 04, 2022, 12:35:22 PMComparing a company selling a game to Hitler invading France sounds insanely over-the-top to me.

Because I compared it to the reality of existing service games many, many times, and you brush them off each time. Because the reality is already over the top, but you don't care.

QuoteThe people who are playing WotC D&D are doing so because they find it fun, not because the evil corporation has warped their brains.

And most people drink and smoke because they like the experience as well. Gambling is also fun for gambling addicts. And we are not even talking about current D&D but theoretical service based D&D, so your example is just completly pointless.

Im not talking about some abstract satanic symbol printed in a magic card. Im talking about recorded phenomenon, with a TON of research conducted on how to extract thousands of dollars from the people with poor self control.
I advocate for stronger self control over government regulation, but I also advocate for ethics on the side of people that release a product as well.

Is conning the elderly with overpriced jewelry OK because 'they have fun' buying it? Nobody warps their brains to buy stuff.

Quote from: jhkim on September 04, 2022, 12:35:22 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 03, 2022, 06:49:30 PM
Its like...playing devils advocate for hitler after he had invaded france. Re-taking lost territories? Maybe. Poland? OK already bad but I guess its small. France? OK thats just wrath and greed.
This isn't coming from a bunch of devs thinking 'How do we deliver the best product delivery system'. Its coming from men in suits that want to prey on the thick and weak willed.

Comparing a company selling a game to Hitler invading France sounds insanely over-the-top to me.

This isn't selling drugs or casino games. There have been some detractors charging that D&D is addictive since back in the 1980s, but I think their arguments are ultimately flawed - and psychological studies have backed that up. D&D is popular because it is fun. It is no more addictive than any other game. The same goes for X-as-a-service products like Spotify. I might not buy into it personally, but I don't think it is comparable to Hitler.

I am reminded of anti-D&D activists of the 1980s saying how I was being mind-controlled, or Ron Edwards in the 2000s talking about the "brain damage" of White Wolf players. I don't believe these. There is no mind control hidden in tabletop RPGs. The people who are playing WotC D&D are doing so because they find it fun, not because the evil corporation has warped their brains.

Other than calling them men in suits (my preferred term is men in long pants), he's spot-on.

It doesn't even need to be SaaS subscriptions. Any time there is not a *physical* product that can be retroactively changed, there is an impetus to put out the best product you can the first time because changing the content costs so much.

Now, we get digital products that *should* be easily edited the first time. Instead, we get poorly edited content or we get buggy software.  It shouldn't take 3 patches and a years worth of free beta testing (well, free to the creator - they've already charged the customer full price for an unfinished alpha) fix something that should have been as close to correct as possible the first time.

Maybe some old news can shed some light on The One D&D Agenda, specifically potential VTT plans:

https://hasbro.gcs-web.com/news-releases/news-release-details/hasbro-appoints-new-leadership-wizards-coast

QuoteHasbro, Inc. (NASDAQ: HAS) today announced that Cynthia W. Williams has been appointed President of its Wizards of the Coast and Digital Gaming division and that Tim Fields has been appointed Senior Vice President and General Manager of Digital Gaming, both effective February 21, 2022.

Ms. Williams joins Hasbro from Microsoft, where she most recently served as General Manager and Vice President, Gaming Ecosystem Commercial Team, and most notably drove the expansion of Xbox Gaming and the acceleration of game-creator growth. Prior to joining Microsoft, Ms. Williams spent more than a decade at Amazon, where she led the global growth of their e-commerce direct-to-consumer business Fulfillment by Amazon.

Mr. Fields joins Hasbro from Kabam Games, one of the most successful mobile gaming studios in North America, where he served as CEO for the past five years. Under his leadership, Kabam developed and operated numerous AAA games, including Marvel Contest of Champions, Disney Mirrorverse, Fast and Furious and Transformers: Forged to Fight. A 26-year veteran of the video game industry, Tim has held a range of leadership positions at major publishers, including Capcom, Microsoft and Electronic Arts.

...Blah, blah, blah...

Mr. Fields will report to Ms. Williams. As Senior Vice President and General Manager of Digital Gaming, he will be responsible for all digital gaming, including internal and external development of Wizards' growing portfolio of story-led projects."

Mr. Fields recent specialty has been so-called "AAA" mobile games that are low cost, or free to play, and that rely on microtransaction monetization to generate revenue.

A bit of what he's all about in his own words:

How to entertain the world... and make them stay - Tim Fields | Kabam


They will 100% implement as much of this stuff as possible in the OneVTT:

The Psychology of Loot Boxes and Microtransactions:
http://platinumparagon.info/the-psychology-of-loot-boxes-and-microtransactions/

Insert More Coins: The Psychology Behind Microtransactions:
https://www.tuw.edu/psychology/psychology-behind-microtransactions/

If anyone here believes that Mr. Fields will not have a big hand in the development and implementation of the D&DOne VTT; you are completely naive, and your ability to recognize what is right in front of your face is beyond repair.

Quote from: Jaeger on September 04, 2022, 05:12:33 PMHow to entertain the world... and make them stay - Tim Fields | Kabam

But he said entertained. Which makes all the other terrible things he works around illegitimate.

If successful, I'm sure the stockholders will be amused.  He sure isn't working for the consumers.

Many years ago, I had the option to move to Seattle and get into video game development.  Best decision I did not make.  My soul is still intact and I'm not in the 'habituation' business.

Quote from: Jaeger on September 04, 2022, 05:12:33 PM
Maybe some old news can shed some light on The One D&D Agenda, specifically potential VTT plans:

https://hasbro.gcs-web.com/news-releases/news-release-details/hasbro-appoints-new-leadership-wizards-coast

QuoteHasbro, Inc. (NASDAQ: HAS) today announced that Cynthia W. Williams has been appointed President of its Wizards of the Coast and Digital Gaming division and that Tim Fields has been appointed Senior Vice President and General Manager of Digital Gaming, both effective February 21, 2022.

Ms. Williams joins Hasbro from Microsoft, where she most recently served as General Manager and Vice President, Gaming Ecosystem Commercial Team, and most notably drove the expansion of Xbox Gaming and the acceleration of game-creator growth. Prior to joining Microsoft, Ms. Williams spent more than a decade at Amazon, where she led the global growth of their e-commerce direct-to-consumer business Fulfillment by Amazon.

Mr. Fields joins Hasbro from Kabam Games, one of the most successful mobile gaming studios in North America, where he served as CEO for the past five years. Under his leadership, Kabam developed and operated numerous AAA games, including Marvel Contest of Champions, Disney Mirrorverse, Fast and Furious and Transformers: Forged to Fight. A 26-year veteran of the video game industry, Tim has held a range of leadership positions at major publishers, including Capcom, Microsoft and Electronic Arts.

...Blah, blah, blah...

Mr. Fields will report to Ms. Williams. As Senior Vice President and General Manager of Digital Gaming, he will be responsible for all digital gaming, including internal and external development of Wizards' growing portfolio of story-led projects."

Mr. Fields recent specialty has been so-called "AAA" mobile games that are low cost, or free to play, and that rely on microtransaction monetization to generate revenue.

A bit of what he's all about in his own words:

How to entertain the world... and make them stay - Tim Fields | Kabam

They will 100% implement as much of this stuff as possible in the OneVTT:

The Psychology of Loot Boxes and Microtransactions:
http://platinumparagon.info/the-psychology-of-loot-boxes-and-microtransactions/

Insert More Coins: The Psychology Behind Microtransactions:
https://www.tuw.edu/psychology/psychology-behind-microtransactions/

If anyone here believes that Mr. Fields will not have a big hand in the development and implementation of the D&DOne VTT; you are completely naive, and your ability to recognize what is right in front of your face is beyond repair.

This kinda reminds me of the scene from Heartbreak Ridge where the general tells the Logistics Officer turned Infantry Officer that he should have stuck with Logistics because he's a disaster as an Infantry Officer. 

A mobile gaming company is definitely *not* who I would want leading things in trying to get a company that has traditionally been terrible at digital gaming to create their own VTT.

OneDnD is going to have to beat *all* of their VTT competitors, all of their character creation tool competitors, and best them both at a price point people are comfortable with.  All while guaranteeing lifelong access to content that won't get deleted or edited for wokeness.  Actually it doesn't even need to be edited for wokeness - the 1st printing of Deities and Demigods would have been quickly disappeared if it were a digital product. As a hardcover book, I managed to quietly grab a copy of it from a used bookstore for $3.

Don't get me wrong - PDFs are great as a backup to your physical books, but they can't replace them. Likewise VTTs are a necessary evil, but can't replace the social aspect of in person gaming.

Quote from: 3catcircus on September 04, 2022, 09:29:31 PMDon't get me wrong - PDFs are great as a backup to your physical books, but they can't replace them. Likewise VTTs are a necessary evil, but can't replace the social aspect of in person gaming.

There is also the space aspect. I love allot of books for reference but I don't own a libraries worth of space for PDFs.

And you nailed the VTT aspect. Most hot and up and coming VTT are on a one time purchase and you can pay to have it hosted on a server separately. How does WOTC plan to compete with that.

Quote from: 3catcircus on September 04, 2022, 09:29:31 PM
...

OneDnD is going to have to beat *all* of their VTT competitors, all of their character creation tool competitors, and best them both at a price point people are comfortable with.  All while guaranteeing lifelong access to content that won't get deleted or edited for wokeness. 
...

No they wont.

They have D&D. They just have to be "Good Enough."

Now, they can't completely suck. But as long as they are on par, the market is theirs.

Because come 2024 all official D&D VTT adventures, books etc., will be available only on one platform.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 04, 2022, 11:30:52 PM
...
And you nailed the VTT aspect. Most hot and up and coming VTT are on a one time purchase and you can pay to have it hosted on a server separately. How does WOTC plan to compete with that.

They don't need to. They have D&D.

All these other VTT have only done relatively well because WotC could not get their own VTT off the ground for various reasons.

So WotC had to play ball, allowing them to integrate with D&D beyond, and have adventure paths in their format.

The problem all these other VTT have is that the majority of their user base exclusively plays WotC D&D.

Now they are going to be cut out. No more D&D beyond, or AP integration.

The real question is this; come 2024, how do they plan to to compete with WotC?

Market Leader + Good Enough = No can defend.

Quote from: Jaeger on September 05, 2022, 12:47:09 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on September 04, 2022, 09:29:31 PM
...

OneDnD is going to have to beat *all* of their VTT competitors, all of their character creation tool competitors, and best them both at a price point people are comfortable with.  All while guaranteeing lifelong access to content that won't get deleted or edited for wokeness. 
...

No they wont.

They have D&D. They just have to be "Good Enough."

Now, they can't completely suck. But as long as they are on par, the market is theirs.

Because come 2024 all official D&D VTT adventures, books etc., will be available only on one platform.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 04, 2022, 11:30:52 PM
...
And you nailed the VTT aspect. Most hot and up and coming VTT are on a one time purchase and you can pay to have it hosted on a server separately. How does WOTC plan to compete with that.

They don't need to. They have D&D.

All these other VTT have only done relatively well because WotC could not get their own VTT off the ground for various reasons.

So WotC had to play ball, allowing them to integrate with D&D beyond, and have adventure paths in their format.

The problem all these other VTT have is that the majority of their user base exclusively plays WotC D&D.

Now they are going to be cut out. No more D&D beyond, or AP integration.

The real question is this; come 2024, how do they plan to to compete with WotC?

Market Leader + Good Enough = No can defend.

My guess is that those who ONLY play 5e will migrate to WotC's VTT.

Those who play other games besides probably won't, they already do the work for those other games.

As for Roll20 et all competing... IF they're smart they will cut their prices. I'm betting on Roll20 going even woker.

Also, since people BOUGHT those books they own them, I don't think even WotC will be stupid enough to start removing access to stuff people paid for from day 1.