Many older gamers are collectors and buy games and modules they know they probably won't play and have bookshelves full of games they can't quite give away, yet.... It'll be interesting to see how that works out with a subscription model where you don't 'own' anything.

Quote from: Ruprecht on September 01, 2022, 11:59:58 PM
Many older gamers are collectors and buy games and modules they know they probably won't play and have bookshelves full of games they can't quite give away, yet.... It'll be interesting to see how that works out with a subscription model where you don't 'own' anything.

I like to open up books from different editions, and see how "x" was changed and rewritten.

But now I have drawn a line at woke rules changes, so nothing new with D&D or Pathfinder will appeal to me.  Now I am just enjoying my bookshelf, and thinking about the OSR.

Quote from: Ruprecht on September 01, 2022, 11:59:58 PM
It'll be interesting to see how that works out with a subscription model where you don't 'own' anything.

The answer for me is 'no thank you' (with a hell of a lot more cursing.)  Of course, I'm not the lemming demographic that they are targeting.  I have no loyalty to the D&D brand, perhaps some nostalgia, but nothing that generates revenue for them.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 01, 2022, 06:33:33 PM

So, I buy the books ONCE and can play forever. Which is exactly what's bothering Hasbro, they want to turn you into a paypig.

Kind of, but not exactly.

I think the suits in Providence telling the geeks in Renton just want revenue higher and steadier. Hasbro corporate would be just as happy with the traditional supplement/module treadmill because selling a $20 module every month would up the stream, especially if they released a $5-10 player book each month with new powers/abilities/etc for the current levels in the adventure path.

It would probably have a more explainable cost structure and might (note, might) be cheaper than running a VTT (people seem to really underestimate the costs of providing SaaS in the software industry...I doubt toy and game companies will learn from that).

Right now we have to convince the suits the costs will skyrocket and revenues will either be flat or not rise as much as costs. The purity arguments, the pro-consumer arguments won't stop this.

A "this is going to cost you money" argument might.

  Why would I argue with them?  When a dipshit I dont like is about to screw themselves over....I prefer to let nature sort it out.

Quote from: PulpHerb on September 02, 2022, 11:26:58 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 01, 2022, 06:33:33 PM

So, I buy the books ONCE and can play forever. Which is exactly what's bothering Hasbro, they want to turn you into a paypig.

Kind of, but not exactly.

I think the suits in Providence telling the geeks in Renton just want revenue higher and steadier. Hasbro corporate would be just as happy with the traditional supplement/module treadmill because selling a $20 module every month would up the stream, especially if they released a $5-10 player book each month with new powers/abilities/etc for the current levels in the adventure path.

It would probably have a more explainable cost structure and might (note, might) be cheaper than running a VTT (people seem to really underestimate the costs of providing SaaS in the software industry...I doubt toy and game companies will learn from that).

Right now we have to convince the suits the costs will skyrocket and revenues will either be flat or not rise as much as costs. The purity arguments, the pro-consumer arguments won't stop this.

A "this is going to cost you money" argument might.

I agree with oggsmash: Why would I want to disuade them? I honestly believe that D&D needs to get cut short for the sake of the hobby. IMHO the sooner D&D/Pathfinder and the other "big" dogs die out the better for the hobby.

Who I want to disuade is the customer from letting Hasbro fuck them in the ass.

Also you're wrong, I'm exactly right. Your own example proves it: IF they could generate enough money with the edition/module threadmill they would. But they know it's got diminishing returns and they have probably already reached the plateau and started the downwards road, probably exacerbated by their woke BS.

But they can't, they might have learned the lesson from the past, so they look at AAA vidya and they see people getting rich by milking the customer, banning the customer for wrong think, etc.

So the Wokes in WotC see this and notice it could accomplish the goals of their corporate masters and their own in one fell swoop: Turn the customer into an eternal paypig and get rid of all those nasty wrongthinkers by banning them from the platform.

Heck they might have (and I bet they did) even convinced the suits in Hasbro that this will protect their brand and help them get more sales.

Plus the WotC megalomaniacs have long been pushing for the One True Way being playing what the creator wrote RAW.

What better way to achieve all of that? If you think about it they could even force the threadmill on you:

Just put an expiration date on the modules, so you can't play the same module with a new group 2 years down the road. Citing convenience reasons they remove your ability to create your own maps, etc. For your own good of course, this is way more convenient "you don't have to waste all that time preparing a campaign/session/whatever, We have already done it for you!".

You can bet your bottom dollar the consooooooooomers will scream this is just great and ask dady Hasbro to oppress them harder.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 01, 2022, 06:33:33 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 01, 2022, 06:04:05 PM
In general, the balance of subscription versus buying depends a ton on the price point. How long will you be using the stuff, and how cheap is the subscription package compared to individual purchases.

Finally, no, the main point of contention isn't the price point, it's the huge ammount of pitfalls the GaaS model has, and that ALL of those are anti-consumer.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 01, 2022, 06:33:33 PM
So, I buy the books ONCE and can play forever. Which is exactly what's bothering Hasbro, they want to turn you into a paypig.

Your contention is about becoming a "paypig" - but then you say that the contention isn't the price point. I don't think that makes sense. If I'm paying *less* for the same content via subscription, then how I am I a "paypig"?

In practice, the vast majority of tabletop RPG players out there don't keep playing the same edition of the game for decades. They switch out to new games and/or new editions. I'm not saying that either subscription or traditional is best - just that there are pitfalls of each, and who is the paypig depends on the price point comparison.

The traditional edition and supplement treadmill is just as much about making customers into paypigs, convincing them to buy a new set of books every 5-10 years. The question is about value delivered for content.

it's not about price.

1. With a traditional book, you trade money for the book after the book has been written. The author is motivated to make it a damn good book because he wants to sell a lot of copies. He might have an idea of how good it will sell based on past books, but he's still motivated to swing for the bleachers because he doesn't want months or years of hard work to go to waste.

2. With a subscription, you pay in advance for merely the promise of good material. If good material is released at a decent frequency, you are happy. If mediocre material is released slowly, you might hope that next month is better and stay subscribed. Or you might cancel. You paid in advance, so the company doesn't really care.

What's more, the author of subscribed material doesn't have to do great work. He can do average work, just good enough so that the cancelation rate is manageable. The author can see the cancelation rate and the new subscriber rate in real time, so he knows exactly how hard to try. He is not motivated to do his best work.

The subscription model flips the business upside down: Instead of "Show me good material and I might buy it" we have "Pay for good material and I might supply it." Even worse, new material trickles out (compared to a book release), so it's hard to judge whether quality and rate good or not. There's always next month, and hoping is easier than canceling.

I have no problem with Patreon or KS style pre-orders especially when it's a small guy. But this is WotC/Hasbro and they have no reason to flip the model other than greed.

Quote from: jhkim on September 02, 2022, 02:38:50 PM
In practice, the vast majority of tabletop RPG players out there don't keep playing the same edition of the game for decades.

If the new game is better yes. Generally not for the same consumptive reason as one has a subscription to a MMO.

"Because people buy new different games means a subscription service to the same game is an equivalent"

I have no idea why so many people play goalkeeper for purely exploitative systems.

Quote from: rytrasmi on September 02, 2022, 03:12:17 PM
1. With a traditional book, you trade money for the book after the book has been written. The author is motivated to make it a damn good book because he wants to sell a lot of copies. He might have an idea of how good it will sell based on past books, but he's still motivated to swing for the bleachers because he doesn't want months or years of hard work to go to waste.

This is the platonic ideal, maybe, but - so many game books don't live up to their reviews or the hype around them. (Also very true in my experience of Kickstarters, which you seem at least somewhat approving of?) Or they read fine but don't work well in play. Or the stuff sells because of marketing. There are plenty of people who seem to make decent money on DriveThruRPG who display no motivation to write good books, just write lots of books & count on consumers to buy indiscriminately.

Quote from: Naburimannu on September 02, 2022, 04:03:24 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on September 02, 2022, 03:12:17 PM
1. With a traditional book, you trade money for the book after the book has been written. The author is motivated to make it a damn good book because he wants to sell a lot of copies. He might have an idea of how good it will sell based on past books, but he's still motivated to swing for the bleachers because he doesn't want months or years of hard work to go to waste.

This is the platonic ideal, maybe, but - so many game books don't live up to their reviews or the hype around them. (Also very true in my experience of Kickstarters, which you seem at least somewhat approving of?) Or they read fine but don't work well in play. Or the stuff sells because of marketing. There are plenty of people who seem to make decent money on DriveThruRPG who display no motivation to write good books, just write lots of books & count on consumers to buy indiscriminately.

How do you know? Maybe people like stuff you don't. What constitutes good material is subjective. In any case, problems with material quality don't magically go away with a subscription. The same issues with hype-marketing and poor playability will still exist. And they will probably get worse, e.g., you will see beta-testing of rule tweaks on the subscriber base or ham-fisted "fixes" that get rolled back in a couple of months.

You can't can flip through the promise of subscribed material at the library or book store or read a friend's copy.

Quote from: jhkim on September 02, 2022, 02:38:50 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 01, 2022, 06:33:33 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 01, 2022, 06:04:05 PM
In general, the balance of subscription versus buying depends a ton on the price point. How long will you be using the stuff, and how cheap is the subscription package compared to individual purchases.

Finally, no, the main point of contention isn't the price point, it's the huge ammount of pitfalls the GaaS model has, and that ALL of those are anti-consumer.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 01, 2022, 06:33:33 PM
So, I buy the books ONCE and can play forever. Which is exactly what's bothering Hasbro, they want to turn you into a paypig.

Your contention is about becoming a "paypig" - but then you say that the contention isn't the price point. I don't think that makes sense. If I'm paying *less* for the same content via subscription, then how I am I a "paypig"?

In practice, the vast majority of tabletop RPG players out there don't keep playing the same edition of the game for decades. They switch out to new games and/or new editions. I'm not saying that either subscription or traditional is best - just that there are pitfalls of each, and who is the paypig depends on the price point comparison.

The traditional edition and supplement treadmill is just as much about making customers into paypigs, convincing them to buy a new set of books every 5-10 years. The question is about value delivered for content.

So, your contention is that you can pay their subscription for 10 years and still pay less than by buying the books?

Without the books how can you play at home? Are you going to use their app and make all your players use it too? What if one doesn't want to? What if one got banned for being too far left? Are you happy with them determining with who you can play?

Buying the books ONCE has a definitive meaning doesn't it? How can you seem to think I'm okay with the edition/module threadmill? But then again, if you do buy the 2nd edition now you have 2 sets of books and can play both. Is that true on their walled garden? If one edition has been deemed "problematic" by the twatteraty, will it remain unchanged or at all?

The question is about OWNING the game, it's about property rights. But you're happy if a megacorporation wants to take your property rights away.

On the other hand I much rather own the game and play it until I die if I can't afford or don't want to buy the next edition.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 02, 2022, 07:15:59 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 02, 2022, 02:38:50 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 01, 2022, 06:33:33 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 01, 2022, 06:04:05 PM
In general, the balance of subscription versus buying depends a ton on the price point. How long will you be using the stuff, and how cheap is the subscription package compared to individual purchases.

Finally, no, the main point of contention isn't the price point, it's the huge ammount of pitfalls the GaaS model has, and that ALL of those are anti-consumer.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 01, 2022, 06:33:33 PM
So, I buy the books ONCE and can play forever. Which is exactly what's bothering Hasbro, they want to turn you into a paypig.

Your contention is about becoming a "paypig" - but then you say that the contention isn't the price point. I don't think that makes sense. If I'm paying *less* for the same content via subscription, then how I am I a "paypig"?

In practice, the vast majority of tabletop RPG players out there don't keep playing the same edition of the game for decades. They switch out to new games and/or new editions. I'm not saying that either subscription or traditional is best - just that there are pitfalls of each, and who is the paypig depends on the price point comparison.

The traditional edition and supplement treadmill is just as much about making customers into paypigs, convincing them to buy a new set of books every 5-10 years. The question is about value delivered for content.

So, your contention is that you can pay their subscription for 10 years and still pay less than by buying the books?

Without the books how can you play at home? Are you going to use their app and make all your players use it too? What if one doesn't want to? What if one got banned for being too far left? Are you happy with them determining with who you can play?

Buying the books ONCE has a definitive meaning doesn't it? How can you seem to think I'm okay with the edition/module threadmill? But then again, if you do buy the 2nd edition now you have 2 sets of books and can play both. Is that true on their walled garden? If one edition has been deemed "problematic" by the twatteraty, will it remain unchanged or at all?

The question is about OWNING the game, it's about property rights. But you're happy if a megacorporation wants to take your property rights away.

On the other hand I much rather own the game and play it until I die if I can't afford or don't want to buy the next edition.

One D&D is following the Build Back Better plan... You will own nothing, and like it (or else).

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 03, 2022, 08:28:37 AM
One D&D is following the Build Back Better plan... You will own nothing, and like it (or else).

Well, like a stopped clock, they are correct in at least one or two cases:  We'll pay them nothing, and quite like it!

Quote from: Ruprecht on September 01, 2022, 11:59:58 PM
Many older gamers are collectors and buy games and modules they know they probably won't play and have bookshelves full of games they can't quite give away, yet.... It'll be interesting to see how that works out with a subscription model where you don't 'own' anything.

I remember  when Amazon's Kindle system "burped" and caused everyone to lose their books which were on the Kindle subscription model. There were a lot of pissed off customers. I wasn't worried, because all of my books were either dead tree or PDF and couldn't be touched by Kindle.