Quote from: Ghostmaker on August 25, 2022, 03:01:08 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 25, 2022, 02:22:41 PM
Neverwinter Nights has an incredibly robust toolkit for creating and running your own adventures digitally. I'm really surprised WotC didn't try to tap into that. It certainly looks more impressive than a VTT, which is a plus when you're trying to monetize.

Probably because there's no way to ensure their garden stays closed. The moment you let the software out, people will start making their own adventures.

You can monetize that easily with DLC.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 25, 2022, 06:00:57 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on August 25, 2022, 03:01:08 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 25, 2022, 02:22:41 PM
Neverwinter Nights has an incredibly robust toolkit for creating and running your own adventures digitally. I'm really surprised WotC didn't try to tap into that. It certainly looks more impressive than a VTT, which is a plus when you're trying to monetize.

Probably because there's no way to ensure their garden stays closed. The moment you let the software out, people will start making their own adventures.

You can monetize that easily with DLC.

That's not what they're looking for. They want to retain total control of the platform, so they can squeeze every penny they can.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on August 25, 2022, 08:28:28 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 25, 2022, 06:00:57 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on August 25, 2022, 03:01:08 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 25, 2022, 02:22:41 PM
Neverwinter Nights has an incredibly robust toolkit for creating and running your own adventures digitally. I'm really surprised WotC didn't try to tap into that. It certainly looks more impressive than a VTT, which is a plus when you're trying to monetize.

Probably because there's no way to ensure their garden stays closed. The moment you let the software out, people will start making their own adventures.

You can monetize that easily with DLC.

That's not what they're looking for. They want to retain total control of the platform, so they can squeeze every penny they can.

" The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers. "

Other posters have pointed out that it requires a lot of time and effort to create detailed virtual environments online, even with all of the features that WotC seems to want to offer. So, could WotC actually be trying to create a pool of full-time, paid DMs for this purpose? That way, they could also control what was actually happening at the gaming table, because many players might then expect that all DMs run their games this way. Needless to say, players would have to pay for these professional DMs, just as they do now, the difference being that the DM services would be offered as part of a subscription package that includes all kinds of different products.   

Absolutely scummy. NWN was never that scummy. Shame on WotC

Quote from: Rhymer88 on August 26, 2022, 02:41:25 AM
Other posters have pointed out that it requires a lot of time and effort to create detailed virtual environments online, even with all of the features that WotC seems to want to offer. So, could WotC actually be trying to create a pool of full-time, paid DMs for this purpose? That way, they could also control what was actually happening at the gaming table, because many players might then expect that all DMs run their games this way. Needless to say, players would have to pay for these professional DMs, just as they do now, the difference being that the DM services would be offered as part of a subscription package that includes all kinds of different products.

I believe that is one of the goals in the short term (long term would be AI control and a full computer game model). The bottleneck in gaming is the ability to get a group and a DM that knows what they are doing together. By controlling everything they could guarantee both. And as suggested this would mean they control everything in every game to some extent.

Quote from: Corolinth on August 22, 2022, 09:17:31 PM
I some of you guys have lost the plot. Companies are in business to make money. They make that money by selling customers something they want. There's no plot to eliminate theater of the mind because WotC can't monetize it (they've been monetizing theater of the mind for 20+ years), virtual tabletop is already popular and WotC wants a slice of the pie.

That video that was posted about VTT inhibiting player imagination is interesting and makes some good points, but there's a glaring flaw in the argument that's going overlooked. Not all players have equal capabilities. VTT is filling in a gap for players who's imagination is insufficient to construct the world. There are a lot of players who will not play theater of the mind at all because they find it too difficult to enjoy the game. This made the rounds on the internet recently. What is in your mind when you imagine an apple?:



When I tripped across this, I was surprised by the number of people who answered with option 5. I didn't even think such a person existed. I thought 3 was the weakest possible human imagination.

If you don't have a battle map and miniatures and that sort of thing, a 3 is probably the weakest imagination you could have and still play, but you would be very bad at it and wouldn't enjoy it very much. You can extrapolate that spectrum to something else like a person's ability to keep track of conditions, modifiers, and other game rules. VTT isn't taking someone who is a 1 and turning them into a 5. What VTT does is allow someone who answers 5 to play the game in the first place. More importantly, it also allows someone who answers with 3 or 4 to enjoy the game rather than feeling like it's too much for them.

Any tabletop game requires one to use their imagination. If one can not or does not want to use their imagination than the hobby is not for them and they absolutely must be gatekept out. They have plenty of other options in terms of video games.

I do realise that this is not what's happening. And WotC want more money so are catering to those with no imagination whatsoever. Like the Critical Role lot who just want to re-enact their favorite scenes and won't let you deviate from the Mercer doctrine.

Some other publishers are trying to do this for their ttrpg IPs too. Like Paradox. This only exacerbates the homogeneity and worship thereof that I've come to despise in the ttrpg scene.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 25, 2022, 02:22:41 PM
Neverwinter Nights has an incredibly robust toolkit for creating and running your own adventures digitally. I'm really surprised WotC didn't try to tap into that. It certainly looks more impressive than a VTT, which is a plus when you're trying to monetize.

I have amazing memories of NwN from my childhood. I'd credit it as being the reason I eventually got into TTRPGs at all. Neverwinter Nights in my opinion is the game closest to the spirit (not the rules) of DnD. Giving you an unprecedented tool box at the time. Which people used to make single player campaigns that were better than anything Bioware made from the release of NwN onwards. You had a dedicated DM client with tools to help run a virtual game of DnD years before Virtual tabletops were a thing.  And then you get into the persistent worlds. Mini MMOs catering to all kinds of tastes. From PvP, RP, and so on. There's even a Star Wars server that's pretty fun and very ambitious. A lot of the persistent worlds have all kinds of custom scripts and innovative features and back in the day competed with one another to innovate.   

If One DnD was just NwN 3 I'd champion it. Not as a replacement for DnD. But an awesome alternative.

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 26, 2022, 09:25:55 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 25, 2022, 02:22:41 PM
Neverwinter Nights has an incredibly robust toolkit for creating and running your own adventures digitally. I'm really surprised WotC didn't try to tap into that. It certainly looks more impressive than a VTT, which is a plus when you're trying to monetize.

I have amazing memories of NwN from my childhood. I'd credit it as being the reason I eventually got into TTRPGs at all. Neverwinter Nights in my opinion is the game closest to the spirit (not the rules) of DnD. Giving you an unprecedented tool box at the time. Which people used to make single player campaigns that were better than anything Bioware made from the release of NwN onwards. You had a dedicated DM client with tools to help run a virtual game of DnD years before Virtual tabletops were a thing.  And then you get into the persistent worlds. Mini MMOs catering to all kinds of tastes. From PvP, RP, and so on. There's even a Star Wars server that's pretty fun and very ambitious. A lot of the persistent worlds have all kinds of custom scripts and innovative features and back in the day competed with one another to innovate.   

If One DnD was just NwN 3 I'd champion it. Not as a replacement for DnD. But an awesome alternative.

What was your favorite module outside Bioware?  Mine was the Shadow Lord series.

Quote from: Ruprecht on August 23, 2022, 08:33:05 AM

Quote from: Wisithir on August 22, 2022, 09:29:43 PM
All a VTT combat map does for those that lack imagination is let them play a boardgame on the combat map without appreciating the world they cannot imagine.

The VTT allows everyone to see the world exactly the same (for whatever that is worth).
Also the VTT takes mystery away (Oh, it's just an Umber Hulk, I was scared for a minute by your description).

Your understanding of what the good VTTs can do then is massively lacking.

Just a basic one a local DM had years ago had features like map reveal based on line of sight. Monster counters hidden in true nature till revealed. Or false counters. Lighting effects even. Though fairly simple for the time. Mid 2000s.

And VTTs have improved since.

Quote from: Jaeger on August 23, 2022, 07:48:42 PM
I was a bit surprised WotC hasn't engaged in some GW style type behavior to run out some of their erstwhile competition.

WOTC did exactly that with thir store franchise back in the early 2000s by copying GW's wretched business practices. Even now locally there is bad blood over what they did to small stores locally.

So yes they have done it before and since its WOTC, they can and possibly will try such stunts again some day.

Quote from: Omega on August 30, 2022, 06:25:42 AM
Your understanding of what the good VTTs can do then is massively lacking.

Can they display a beast not in the software library?

Quote from: Snowman0147 on August 30, 2022, 01:40:31 AM

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 26, 2022, 09:25:55 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 25, 2022, 02:22:41 PM
Neverwinter Nights has an incredibly robust toolkit for creating and running your own adventures digitally. I'm really surprised WotC didn't try to tap into that. It certainly looks more impressive than a VTT, which is a plus when you're trying to monetize.

I have amazing memories of NwN from my childhood. I'd credit it as being the reason I eventually got into TTRPGs at all. Neverwinter Nights in my opinion is the game closest to the spirit (not the rules) of DnD. Giving you an unprecedented tool box at the time. Which people used to make single player campaigns that were better than anything Bioware made from the release of NwN onwards. You had a dedicated DM client with tools to help run a virtual game of DnD years before Virtual tabletops were a thing.  And then you get into the persistent worlds. Mini MMOs catering to all kinds of tastes. From PvP, RP, and so on. There's even a Star Wars server that's pretty fun and very ambitious. A lot of the persistent worlds have all kinds of custom scripts and innovative features and back in the day competed with one another to innovate.   

If One DnD was just NwN 3 I'd champion it. Not as a replacement for DnD. But an awesome alternative.

What was your favorite module outside Bioware?  Mine was the Shadow Lord series.

Swordflight had the most unprecedented level of reactivity I've ever seen out of a CRPG. It'd give you multiple options to solve a quest and even class based options for each class. And it reacted when you thought outside the box like a real GM would. It still amazes me just how reactive that module series is.

Quote from: Ruprecht on August 30, 2022, 09:07:16 AM

Can they display a beast not in the software library?
[/quote]
Just like on my physical tabletop, I can throw together a quick sketch, cut it out, and throw it on a standy. The good-enough-proxy lives!

And make a note that I need to find something appropriate to that for the next time it comes up.

Just like at any other table. Except that I can probably Google an image and cut that out to make a much higher quality proxy than I could with my bagful of markers and a 3 x 5 card.