I for one look forward to running homebrew games using pirated info and software stolen from the WotC retards.

Quote from: Jaeger on August 23, 2022, 07:48:42 PM

Quote from: rkhigdon on August 23, 2022, 04:30:03 PM
...

If WOTC has indeed received a multi-hundred million dollar boost in capital towards this project, how likely is it that the little guy can keep up?  Obviously there have been a number of good products that have come out of small teams (open source and otherwise), but that's been in a market where some of the big players haven't necessarily worried about VTS and other tools.  If WOTC now has a vested interest in that business space, they will certainly have the capability of crushing the little guy no matter the quality of the product.

WotC has been spending hundreds of millions buying up video game outfits.

The 'little guy' can't keep up.

I was a bit surprised WotC hasn't engaged in some GW style type behavior to run out some of their erstwhile competition. But upon reflection I realized that their competition did that for them already. Part of D&D's recent ascendancy is that there is no VtM to give them anything resembling competition. There are no readily visible alternatives.

All WotC has to really do to sink most other VTT's is to have all official D&D content on their VTT.

Place's like roll20 will not be able to have the latest D&D adventure path maps and tokens all ready to go come 2024.

Most will go under. A few will find their niche and service other RPG players.

The problem is that ttrpgs in general are not a growth sector for a variety of reasons. Nobody with resources has any incentive to compete with D&D when you can make mobile shovelware that brings in vastly more money with vastly more RoI.

In fact, the reason I decided to go into crpg co-writing is because that's actually a growth sector. If I tried making a ttrpg (whether an original product or a 3pp tie-in to whatever's trendy) without existing connections in the hobby, then nobody would play it. ttrpg players in general are insular and unwilling to play anything beyond their favorite game that they developed nostalgic feelings for as a kid or teen. Some aren't like that, but they're not big enough to make a difference.

I'm better off releasing a crpg to garner interest, then a ttrpg adaptation thereof.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 24, 2022, 10:17:19 AM

In fact, the reason I decided to go into crpg co-writing is because that's actually a growth sector. If I tried making a ttrpg (whether an original product or a 3pp tie-in to whatever's trendy) without existing connections in the hobby, then nobody would play it. ttrpg players in general are insular and unwilling to play anything beyond their favorite game that they developed nostalgic feelings for as a kid or teen. Some aren't like that, but they're not big enough to make a difference.

I'm better off releasing a crpg to garner interest, then a ttrpg adaptation thereof.

I believe that this is also why many of the great game designers of the early days left the hobby to get into writing other things.  More money, less headaches and they don't have to deal with asshole fans.

Quote from: GhostNinja on August 24, 2022, 11:59:57 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 24, 2022, 10:17:19 AM

In fact, the reason I decided to go into crpg co-writing is because that's actually a growth sector. If I tried making a ttrpg (whether an original product or a 3pp tie-in to whatever's trendy) without existing connections in the hobby, then nobody would play it. ttrpg players in general are insular and unwilling to play anything beyond their favorite game that they developed nostalgic feelings for as a kid or teen. Some aren't like that, but they're not big enough to make a difference.

I'm better off releasing a crpg to garner interest, then a ttrpg adaptation thereof.

I believe that this is also why many of the great game designers of the early days left the hobby to get into writing other things.  More money, less headaches and they don't have to deal with asshole fans.

Yeah, it's so unfortunate. Ttrpgs have the flexibility of the human brain to make them dynamic and reactive in a way that video games aren't. But so often I get the impression that most players don't actually want that sort of creativity unless the game itself goes out of its way to foster creativity (e.g. toolkit games or ones with multiple campaign settings). Which would explain why all ttrpgs dramatically declined in the 90s precisely when video games were becoming more and more expressive.

Anyway, I'm really annoyed that aasimars were sidelined in favor furbait Ardlings. I was expecting a furbait race to show up eventually simply because they're so common elsewhere, but this is just insulting. Especially when they're reverting tieflings back to their 2e/3e-style backgrounds as fiendish planetouched.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 24, 2022, 10:17:19 AM
...
The problem is that ttrpgs in general are not a growth sector for a variety of reasons. Nobody with resources has any incentive to compete with D&D when you can make mobile shovelware that brings in vastly more money with vastly more RoI.

In fact, the reason I decided to go into crpg co-writing is because that's actually a growth sector. If I tried making a ttrpg (whether an original product or a 3pp tie-in to whatever's trendy) without existing connections in the hobby, then nobody would play it. ttrpg players in general are insular and unwilling to play anything beyond their favorite game that they developed nostalgic feelings for as a kid or teen. Some aren't like that, but they're not big enough to make a difference.

I'm better off releasing a crpg to garner interest, then a ttrpg adaptation thereof.

RPG's were always a cottage industry. D&D's success as the industry leader has always been an outlier.

In my opinion; A BIG part of the decline of non-D&D games outside of their own mismanagement is that the economy has never really recovered from the 2008 crash, and the economics of making already low margin print products competitive with D&D has gotten even harder, and has stayed that way.

Quote from: GhostNinja on August 24, 2022, 11:59:57 AM
...
I believe that this is also why many of the great game designers of the early days left the hobby to get into writing other things.  More money, less headaches and they don't have to deal with asshole fans.

TSR was known for being notoriously miserly with its creative talent. So of course they left.

WotC has not proven to be much better.

One Technique in particular favor by WotC is the written by committee aspect of everything that they put out. There are no modules adventures or supplements with a "Written by:" with just one name like you would see in the early TSR era.

Anyone with actual talent is prevented from gaining individual notice...

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 24, 2022, 01:36:14 PM
...
Yeah, it's so unfortunate. Ttrpgs have the flexibility of the human brain to make them dynamic and reactive in a way that video games aren't. But so often I get the impression that most players don't actually want that sort of creativity unless the game itself goes out of its way to foster creativity (e.g. toolkit games or ones with multiple campaign settings). Which would explain why all ttrpgs dramatically declined in the 90s precisely when video games were becoming more and more expressive.
..

The first part in bold is what truly sets RPG's apart from all other games, and will keep the hobby going forever.

The second part in bold is why RPG's will always be a bit of a cottage industry (market leader excepted).

To make RPG's work you need to have a reasonably intelligent person acting as the GM, and a decent portion of players like that as well. And there are degree's of this within the hobby itself: A lot of people are just not that creative, don't trust their creativity, or are unwilling to move away from 'official' product. And that effect is what WotC is doubling down on with their VTT.

But even then - you need a hobbyist GM to make the game run. The Hobbyist GM is the true pillar of support holding up the hobby.

I think that their VTT initiative is an attempt to create 'casual' GM's by having tons of turnkey premade Adventure Paths and content. They want to make it as easy as possible to "GM" for D&D. For all the talk of having this modular virtual playground - there is only a tiny percentage of Hobbyist GM's that will take the time to really use all the bells and whistles.

I think that the D&DOne + VTT  will be tied at the hip with their adventure anthology and AP releases after 2024.

Yes, you can get the hardback book; But even more importantly the same AP is available at launch ready to go with all the bells and whistles in the OneVTT...

Now 'anyone' can "GM" for D&D - All the Content and Creativity is done for you.

In my opinion: WotC knows 6 session "campaigns" do not reliably create the hobbyist GM that will keep the games network effect intact moving forward into the future.

Having their D&D product fully integrated with a VTT allows them to lower the bar and have 'casual' GM's. With the integrated VTT you will just need someone willing to jump in and paint by the numbers.

Will this lead to a degradation of the in-game experience, compared to a game run by a good GM?

Yes.

But that doesn't matter.

WotC is not interested in making new GM's better. They desperately want a way to monetize the player base that traditionally buys much less product than the hobbyist GM's.

RE: One D&D

If they have the Players Choose their Class, before their Race & Background; are they suggesting that What You Do or What Role You Fill, is more important than Who You Are?

Hmm......  That's interesting.....

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 24, 2022, 01:36:14 PM

Yeah, it's so unfortunate. Ttrpgs have the flexibility of the human brain to make them dynamic and reactive in a way that video games aren't. But so often I get the impression that most players don't actually want that sort of creativity unless the game itself goes out of its way to foster creativity (e.g. toolkit games or ones with multiple campaign settings). Which would explain why all ttrpgs dramatically declined in the 90s precisely when video games were becoming more and more expressive.

Anyway, I'm really annoyed that aasimars were sidelined in favor furbait Ardlings. I was expecting a furbait race to show up eventually simply because they're so common elsewhere, but this is just insulting. Especially when they're reverting tieflings back to their 2e/3e-style backgrounds as fiendish planetouched.

I agree, I love video games but there is no comparing a video game to a a TTRPG.

I am just afraid that WOTC is going to destroy D&D and make it into something stupid.  I am already looking at alternatives to jump to like Labyrinth Lord and the like in case I need to abandon ship to make sure WOTC gets no more money from me.

Quote from: GhostNinja on August 24, 2022, 09:46:57 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2022, 01:29:50 PM
Where's the advantage of not owning the game but renting it from them?

Nothing good. Probably so they can control how the game is run/played.   I am a fan of subscription version of Microsoft Office, that makes sense.  But for role playing games and for D&D, I think it's really bad for players and the DM.  It's about them controlling what we do.  Screw that.

Kinda off topic, but disagree about this part. ALL products as a "service" are a scam to keep customers paying in perpetuity. Office software is ancient at this point and no major innovations have been made in that area in decades. You can even get non-Microsoft office software for free.

The only reason to build a subscription "service" around them is to prevent people or even companies getting by with just perfectly serviceable MS Office software they purchased decades ago. Similar for Adobe CC, though, least some innovation has been made in graphics software the past few years.

IMO Software as a Service was the initial trial to test that sort of business model, and get the public acostumed to the idea of paying forever instead of just paying a one time fee. Now that it's become a proven business model they're moving to market other products as a service as well. Games are an obvious fit, since video games are already software and TTRPGs now have a digital presence as well. But there's already a push for even "Vehicle as a Service" as well. All for your convenience, of course, cuz that's how they try to convince you it's for your own good, when in reality it's about ensuring that the company gets an assured steady cash flow.

Quote from: amacris on August 22, 2022, 12:41:06 AM

QuoteAnd that's something. You're acknowledging this issue, which is good.

It's also good that you're finding a niche within the tabletop rpg industry. Lots of publishers don't even bother to ask themselves what the needs of potential customers are, that aren't being met. I've also heard that all mention of ACKS and Autarch is a forbidden topic on RPGnet. That blows my mind. It also probably embodies "the bleak side of a network effect".

The moderators of RPG.net consistently defamed me with false accusations. When I asked the owners to stop their staff from defaming me, they instead simply banned any discussion of my game. If they weren't allowed to defame me, then no one would be allowed to say anything at all. So I definitely have been on the bleak side of the network effect! But the good news is that there is a counter-network slowly forming. It's much smaller but it's the beginning of something.

They really have no shame.

Quote from: amacris on August 22, 2022, 12:41:06 AM

QuoteI've been thinking about this lately, and it seems like few tabletop rpg publishers want to take any useful lessons from the board game industry.....or they avoid consciously thinking about building their own IP.

I'd be curious as to what you see as the chief lessons to take from the board game industry. That seems like a REALLY worthwhile discussion.

I would like to delve into that, but this probably isn't the right thread for it. I'll just say that even the simpler tabletop rpgs tend to have a steeper learning curve than most board games, not necessarily due to rules density......but due to presentation of information. Most rpg publishers have never figured out (or even acknowledged) the accessibility problem that 'normies' have with roleplaying games. Board games don't have that problem, in regards to accessibility.

And the truth is that since most TTRPGs look like college textbooks, that makes them NOT intellectually or emotionally accessible for most people. Take note that I'm not making a statement on human intelligence here, but rather that TTRPGs are still GAMES.....and lots of normies struggle to accept "a college textbook"....

.....as an actual GAME.

Quote from: amacris

Quote
Instead, we hear some people advocating that nearly all gaming will inevitably be consigned to a digital ghetto, and that if we're not playing VTT in the near future, then we won't even be playing rpgs at all. This idea that the architects of the Coronahoax will successfully lock everyone up in their homes for the next 20 years, and that face-to-face gaming will be permanently over......is not realistic. People have a breaking point, and eventually need to have face-to-face social interactions.....as digital interactions are a poor surrogate for that.

In my opinion, tabletop RPGs have one major feature that neither boardgames nor videogames have, and that is that the live GM is able to provide total agency to the players to do what they want to do. In Axis & Allies you cannot decide to research an Antarctic base for the Axis, but if it were an RPG you could. Unfortunately, VTT works against this in every way. Instead of being able to freely improvise, the GM becomes constrained by the limits of the VTT. I've noticed this in running ACKS live and ACKS in VTT.

Yeah. I really don't know how to sandbox or do things off my head very well in VTT. In fact, VTT feels like it fills a very similar spot as computer gaming. Both activities (possibly) involve:

* playing a game on a computer
* tapping away at a keyboard
* staring at glowing pixelated images on a screen
* adventuring in dungeons
* creating characters
* adjusting stats for characters
* equipping characters
* speaking with friends via voice chat

This is why I say, why play with a VTT, when I can play a regular computer game instead? And truthfully, neither of these activities (VTT or computer games) involve tabletop gaming. VTT is just VR; it's "virtual reality".....playing a game on a computer. Sure, both activities can be fun....but VTT does not involve the tabletop, just because my computer might be theoretically seated on a table. Personally, I treat VTT as a separate hobby from tabletop gaming, that actually has more in common with computer games.

Quote from: amacris

Quote
I've also noticed multiple game publishers shutting down their blogs and forums, and using Facebook, Discord, and Reddit to communicate with customers instead. That is a major mistake, as these game companies are OUTSOURCING their ability to communicate with potential customers, to the point that it leaves them extremely vulnerable........if these gaming companies offend the wrong person, and end up being removed from these platforms.

Everybody is sure they won't get cancelled until they get cancelled. Myself, I'm on redundant platforms. I'm on Patreon AND Locals. I host my own website. I'm on Twitter, Facebook, and Gab. I have my own mailing list with the member list downloaded from the platform, and I use both Substack and Mailchimp to distribute. I crowdfund on three different platforms.

It simply blows my mind how much trust people still have in mainstream institutions, after years of Coronahoax evil and wankery. Nobody ever thinks they'll be cancelled, or contemplates the potential ramifications of a "social credit score".

"Cancelled?! That will never happen to me! I'm not posting anything obscene!"

I had a ProBoards forum where I posted material for tabletop roleplaying games.....for about 7 or 8 years. I even posted information there about TTRPG freelancing, including freelancer rates and whatnot. It's not a forum I shared with people, and mostly just used it for myself. But I also had a HIDDEN "off topic" section, where I posted socio-political stuff and Coronahoax info. Within MONTHS of me posting Coronahoax info (in the section that potential posters cannot see), ProBoards nuked my site. I did not post anything obscene.

I no longer have any illusions that trusting mainstream institutions is possible. We don't live under a system of objective law any more, and western civilization is no longer "high trust". That's why it behooves us to DECENTRALIZE our means of communication and monetization as much as we possibly can.

This is also why I don't trust Hasbro. The techophiles in this thread are absolutely NOT thinking about this situation rationally, and how it could affect us in regards to the 'Great Reset', and a potential social credit score.

It's not an exaggeration to say that Hasbro is a Satanically evil groomer megacorporation that exploits Chinese slave labor, sells actual pedophile dolls that giggle when you rub the crotch, and unapologetically utilizes convicted pedophiles in their Magic tournaments. One of their employees revealed that they're weaponizing Critical Race Theory propaganda against children (Babylon 2.0 wankery), and Hasbro even receives NWO bribe money.....in the form of ESG investment capital, probably involving the injection of many millions of dollar$ from BlackRock and Vanguard.

If Hasbro's attempt to jam most tabletop gamers into a digital ghetto were to actually succeed, they'd not only mostly kill the tabletop gaming hobby and the TTRPG freelancing industry, but customers could probably count on having their social media accounts policed for voicing "wrongthink".....and then "fired" as customers for vocally opposing:

* abortion
* LGBTQ+ groomer propaganda
* pedophilia and human trafficking
* mass migration of the Third World into western Europe
* mask mandates
* vaccines/mRNA gene therapy/genetic modification/human microchipping
* the banking cartels, and usury
* the NATO war against Russia, using Ukraine as a proxy
* Satanism and child sacrifice (no, I'm not kidding)

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. I absolutely don't care if people enjoy VTT, since VTT has been around for years. But people need to remember that Hasbro is not controlled by gaming nerds. Hasbro is a giant and wickedly evil mega-corporation that is controlled by the same men who control nearly all billion dollar mega-corporations, and who have a Satanic obsession with massive global population reduction. And that OBSESSION controls the activities of all companies that receive ESG investment capital.

Quote from: amacris on August 22, 2022, 12:41:06 AM

Quote
Publishers must absolutely have rigid control over their methods of communicating with customers. Remember when Vox Day had his blog nuked by Blogger? He didn't break any rules, but he disrupted the precious "Globohomo narrative". Fortunately for him, he anticipated this......and was instantly ready with a backup clone blog that he personally controlled. In other words, DECENTRALIZATION is necessary.

But....of course, Hasbro wants massive centralization.

Not just Hasbro! But yes. Amen.

Quote
Meanwhile, we have too many content creators who are just releasing pdfs, or the occasional rpg books.......which doesn't actually do anything to make rpgs more accessible for people. Most people understand the concept of a board game, but lots of people struggle with the concept of a tabletop rpg...and can't visualize it.

When I brought up examples of "optimizing the face-to-face experience"....my point was that rpg publishers need to start thinking outside the box, because a lot of the 'normies' need this type of stuff to help them find inspiration...when they're engaging in the face-to-face social activity of a roleplaying game.

One of the things I'm doing is using comics as a means to help promote my RPG. The comic book comes with cool Magic-style trading cards that serve as miniature character sheets for the RPG. I'm sure there are other ideas worth thinking about.

There are, but this isn't the thread for it.

Start a new thread and let's discuss it there, then!

(And I agree with your other comments but further exploration of them would violate our generous host's rules.)

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on August 24, 2022, 11:32:29 PM
If Hasbro's attempt to jam most tabletop gamers into a digital ghetto were to actually succeed, they'd not only mostly kill the tabletop gaming hobby and the TTRPG freelancing industry...

• Howard Stern was the king of all media, then he got a great paycheck to move to Sirius FM. I'm sure his audience is huge but he basically disappeared from the public square. Occasionally he'll say something wild but basically he's disappeared.
• Oprah was the Queen of talkshows, then she started her own network that I'm sure is doing great, but she basically disappeared from the public square. I see her magazines in the grocery store but otherwise she's just not in the news the same way anymore.

If Wizards doesn't manage this move to digital very carefully it may be a similar phenomena. They trade visibility for cash in a closed market. If could be a breath of fresh air for the rest of the tabletop market as Wizards concentrates their money and efforts on the online space.

Quote from: amacris on August 24, 2022, 11:53:27 PM
Start a new thread and let's discuss it there, then!

(And I agree with your other comments but further exploration of them would violate our generous host's rules.)

I think I'd better start a new thread.

Hold on. I lost phone and Internet connectivity at my place, and my smart phone isn't working properly either. To be continued though.

Quote from: Ruprecht on August 25, 2022, 12:00:13 AM

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on August 24, 2022, 11:32:29 PM
If Hasbro's attempt to jam most tabletop gamers into a digital ghetto were to actually succeed, they'd not only mostly kill the tabletop gaming hobby and the TTRPG freelancing industry...

• Howard Stern was the king of all media, then he got a great paycheck to move to Sirius FM. I'm sure his audience is huge but he basically disappeared from the public square. Occasionally he'll say something wild but basically he's disappeared.
• Oprah was the Queen of talkshows, then she started her own network that I'm sure is doing great, but she basically disappeared from the public square. I see her magazines in the grocery store but otherwise she's just not in the news the same way anymore.

If Wizards doesn't manage this move to digital very carefully it may be a similar phenomena. They trade visibility for cash in a closed market. If could be a breath of fresh air for the rest of the tabletop market as Wizards concentrates their money and efforts on the online space.

....maybe.

The problem here, is that for the first time ever.....I feel like Hasbro has a (slight) chance at achieving their objectives, and that would be horrible. I do, however, hope that Hasbro partially boxes themselves into obscurity, but we'll see what happens.

Quote from: Ruprecht on August 25, 2022, 12:00:13 AM

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on August 24, 2022, 11:32:29 PM
If Hasbro's attempt to jam most tabletop gamers into a digital ghetto were to actually succeed, they'd not only mostly kill the tabletop gaming hobby and the TTRPG freelancing industry...

• Howard Stern was the king of all media, then he got a great paycheck to move to Sirius FM. I'm sure his audience is huge but he basically disappeared from the public square. Occasionally he'll say something wild but basically he's disappeared.
• Oprah was the Queen of talkshows, then she started her own network that I'm sure is doing great, but she basically disappeared from the public square. I see her magazines in the grocery store but otherwise she's just not in the news the same way anymore.

If Wizards doesn't manage this move to digital very carefully it may be a similar phenomena. They trade visibility for cash in a closed market. If could be a breath of fresh air for the rest of the tabletop market as Wizards concentrates their money and efforts on the online space.

"Oh, nah! Don't yeah throw DnD in that that briar patch!"

Out of sight, out of mind. Watching WotC cause DnD to vanish up it's own ass would do nothing but make me giggle.

Neverwinter Nights has an incredibly robust toolkit for creating and running your own adventures digitally. I'm really surprised WotC didn't try to tap into that. It certainly looks more impressive than a VTT, which is a plus when you're trying to monetize.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 25, 2022, 02:22:41 PM
Neverwinter Nights has an incredibly robust toolkit for creating and running your own adventures digitally. I'm really surprised WotC didn't try to tap into that. It certainly looks more impressive than a VTT, which is a plus when you're trying to monetize.

Probably because there's no way to ensure their garden stays closed. The moment you let the software out, people will start making their own adventures.