Quote from: Lancer on August 23, 2022, 01:18:56 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2022, 01:12:40 PM

Quote from: Lancer on August 23, 2022, 01:09:29 PM

Quote from: overstory on August 22, 2022, 01:44:19 PM
Interesting non-political points raised against the One D&D agenda

Disagree on key points. OneD&D wokeness garbage aside, VTTs are good for the hobby. D&D VTTs will spur non-D&D publishers to pursue creating similar VTTs for their own settings (either that or lose a portion of the customer base that prefers that style of play). Evolution through innovation is a good thing.
I also like having the choice of playing either F2F or VTT for any D&D or non-D&D setting.

Sorry, don't VTTs exist already? I'm sure I have over 2 years gaming on Roll20.

Why do we need WotC or any other corpo creating their own RPGAAS? Where's the advantage of not owning the game but renting it from them? Of getting banned for wrongthink outsiode their website?

There are still not enough quality non-D&D VTTs IMHO.
However, VTT technology (and resultant popularity) has come a long way in the past ~ 15 years or so.. They will only get better and more popular as time goes on.

Which doesn't address my arguments:

Why do we need WotC or any other corpo creating their own RPGAAS? (RPGs As A Service)
Where's the advantage of not owning the game but renting it from them?
Of getting banned for wrongthink outsiode their website?

If you ask me we need more opensource of good quality and easy to implement VTTs not more corpo slug. Owlbear Rodeo promised to release the code of their v1.0 after they launch the v2.0. I'm all for more of that. Being able to host MY OWN VTT for my games in an easy way and that the players can access as easy as they currently access Owlbear Rodeo? Sign me the fuck up!

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2022, 01:29:50 PM

Quote from: Lancer on August 23, 2022, 01:18:56 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2022, 01:12:40 PM

Quote from: Lancer on August 23, 2022, 01:09:29 PM

Quote from: overstory on August 22, 2022, 01:44:19 PM
Interesting non-political points raised against the One D&D agenda

Disagree on key points. OneD&D wokeness garbage aside, VTTs are good for the hobby. D&D VTTs will spur non-D&D publishers to pursue creating similar VTTs for their own settings (either that or lose a portion of the customer base that prefers that style of play). Evolution through innovation is a good thing.
I also like having the choice of playing either F2F or VTT for any D&D or non-D&D setting.

Sorry, don't VTTs exist already? I'm sure I have over 2 years gaming on Roll20.

Why do we need WotC or any other corpo creating their own RPGAAS? Where's the advantage of not owning the game but renting it from them? Of getting banned for wrongthink outsiode their website?

There are still not enough quality non-D&D VTTs IMHO.
However, VTT technology (and resultant popularity) has come a long way in the past ~ 15 years or so.. They will only get better and more popular as time goes on.

Which doesn't address my arguments:

Why do we need WotC or any other corpo creating their own RPGAAS? (RPGs As A Service)
Where's the advantage of not owning the game but renting it from them?
Of getting banned for wrongthink outsiode their website?

If you ask me we need more opensource of good quality and easy to implement VTTs not more corpo slug. Owlbear Rodeo promised to release the code of their v1.0 after they launch the v2.0. I'm all for more of that. Being able to host MY OWN VTT for my games in an easy way and that the players can access as easy as they currently access Owlbear Rodeo? Sign me the fuck up!

I had never argued for WotC or any corpo creating an RPGAAS or renting the game from them so I am not sure what to say here?
That being said, I agree to stay away from the corporate stuff. I had been a big fan of older VTTs like OpenRPG, kLooge. Werks, and ScreenMonkey. However, I've been looking at developing my own.

Quote from: Lancer on August 23, 2022, 01:47:34 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2022, 01:29:50 PM

Which doesn't address my arguments:

Why do we need WotC or any other corpo creating their own RPGAAS? (RPGs As A Service)
Where's the advantage of not owning the game but renting it from them?
Of getting banned for wrongthink outsiode their website?

If you ask me we need more opensource of good quality and easy to implement VTTs not more corpo slug. Owlbear Rodeo promised to release the code of their v1.0 after they launch the v2.0. I'm all for more of that. Being able to host MY OWN VTT for my games in an easy way and that the players can access as easy as they currently access Owlbear Rodeo? Sign me the fuck up!

I had never argued for WotC or any corpo creating an RPGAAS or renting the game from them so I am not sure what to say here?
That being said, I agree to stay away from the corporate stuff. I had been a big fan of older VTTs like OpenRPG, kLooge. Werks, and ScreenMonkey. However, I've been looking at developing my own.

But the vid IS ABOUT a corpo creating their own RPGsAAS.

This is the crux of the matter. IDGAFF if people think F2F is better (I would prefer to play that way but I'll take what I can get). The real issue is that this is the first step towards RPGsAAS.

Quote from: Jaeger on August 23, 2022, 04:17:35 AMLive play is just better.

You can have fun playing online, but playing live is more fun.  Period.

I feel sorry for those that think online is better. I cannot even imagine the substandard live game experiences that they lived through to make them think that way.

I agree that live play is better.

My last live game ended with the pandemic and has yet to revive. But during that time I've played consistently two games a week online with my long time groups (one of those two going back 22 years at this point - though we used to play in person and now more than half our players are in other states).

So if I had to play live-only, I'd be simply not playing at all and missing out on a lot of fun and a huge relief during the pandemic from life's stresses.

Still, I'd love to return to gaming live and I have hopes that will happen with the beginning of next year or so. Even if it moves to once a month rather than the prior weekly or bi-weekly game.

Quote from: Lancer on August 23, 2022, 01:18:56 PM
There are still not enough quality non-D&D VTTs IMHO.

This is the chance for the small guys to fix their quality or die.

Watched that video posted a few times earlier on the thread and it was interesting. The way he describes it he expects them to create a Grand Theft Auto type sandbox of Sword Coast. If that is true this seems like a baby-step towards becoming a videogame company. The video game market is massive and they can take a short-cut by using DMs instead of an advanced AI, at least in the short run. I expect they'll have a roster of paid DMs and online games ready to go and they'll have a sort of open table thing going somewhere on the site.

What the video misses is that people dump video games after a year of play no matter how much they've paid for microtransactions. It is not like an Apple product where you buy hardware and apps (which are far more expensive than microtransactions). People won't stay with this because of Microtransactions but Wizards is likely to make a boatload of extra money because of those Microtransactions and that's reason enough there.

Quote from: Ruprecht on August 23, 2022, 02:36:30 PM

Quote from: Lancer on August 23, 2022, 01:18:56 PM
There are still not enough quality non-D&D VTTs IMHO.

This is the chance for the small guys to fix their quality or die.

If WOTC has indeed received a multi-hundred million dollar boost in capital towards this project, how likely is it that the little guy can keep up?  Obviously there have been a number of good products that have come out of small teams (open source and otherwise), but that's been in a market where some of the big players haven't necessarily worried about VTS and other tools.  If WOTC now has a vested interest in that business space, they will certainly have the capability of crushing the little guy no matter the quality of the product.

If characters can be buffed through microtransactions, then that is what WotC will push because it makes them money. Remember Pun-Pun from 3.x? That ridiculous thought experiment about character optimization that lets you start out as a God at level 1? That will become the norm with microtransactions guiding character creation and no DM to say "no" to the player.

Quote from: jeff37923 on August 23, 2022, 04:41:52 PM
If characters can be buffed through microtransactions, then that is what WotC will push because it makes them money. Remember Pun-Pun from 3.x? That ridiculous thought experiment about character optimization that lets you start out as a God at level 1? That will become the norm with microtransactions guiding character creation and no DM to say "no" to the player.

You might be jesting but I've got a sneaking suspicion that DMs will become embattled or that WotC wants to completely remove DM's somehow. I don't know how, just that I see this as player empowerment and the player going, "this is a totally legal character based on true one d&d you have to let me play it"

Quote from: S'mon on August 23, 2022, 08:16:45 AM
...
IME the biggest risk to immersion is not from overly simple maps, but from the uncanny valley effects you can get from trying too hard to look 'real'. WoTC's 1D&D  seems to be plunging right into the uncanny valley.

This.

D&D's VTT looks high-end. But what kind of computer will the average user need to have to run it and take advantage of all it's bells and whistles?

VTT's are best staying fairly abstract rather than trying to give fancy AAA video game like experiences.  Not that the basic graphics couldn't be a bit better, but the user interface in virtually every VTT out there still needs a lot of work.

Quote from: rkhigdon on August 23, 2022, 04:30:03 PM
...

If WOTC has indeed received a multi-hundred million dollar boost in capital towards this project, how likely is it that the little guy can keep up?  Obviously there have been a number of good products that have come out of small teams (open source and otherwise), but that's been in a market where some of the big players haven't necessarily worried about VTS and other tools.  If WOTC now has a vested interest in that business space, they will certainly have the capability of crushing the little guy no matter the quality of the product.

WotC has been spending hundreds of millions buying up video game outfits.

The 'little guy' can't keep up.

I was a bit surprised WotC hasn't engaged in some GW style type behavior to run out some of their erstwhile competition. But upon reflection I realized that their competition did that for them already. Part of D&D's recent ascendancy is that there is no VtM to give them anything resembling competition. There are no readily visible alternatives.

All WotC has to really do to sink most other VTT's is to have all official D&D content on their VTT.

Place's like roll20 will not be able to have the latest D&D adventure path maps and tokens all ready to go come 2024.

Most will go under. A few will find their niche and service other RPG players.

Quote from: Jaeger on August 23, 2022, 07:48:42 PM

Quote from: rkhigdon on August 23, 2022, 04:30:03 PM
...

If WOTC has indeed received a multi-hundred million dollar boost in capital towards this project, how likely is it that the little guy can keep up?  Obviously there have been a number of good products that have come out of small teams (open source and otherwise), but that's been in a market where some of the big players haven't necessarily worried about VTS and other tools.  If WOTC now has a vested interest in that business space, they will certainly have the capability of crushing the little guy no matter the quality of the product.

WotC has been spending hundreds of millions buying up video game outfits.

The 'little guy' can't keep up.

I was a bit surprised WotC hasn't engaged in some GW style type behavior to run out some of their erstwhile competition. But upon reflection I realized that their competition did that for them already. Part of D&D's recent ascendancy is that there is no VtM to give them anything resembling competition. There are no readily visible alternatives.

All WotC has to really do to sink most other VTT's is to have all official D&D content on their VTT.

Place's like roll20 will not be able to have the latest D&D adventure path maps and tokens all ready to go come 2024.

Most will go under. A few will find their niche and service other RPG players.

Hasbro is trying to sell the movie studio that made the D&D movie... I think they're gonna pivot towards only making toys, if this includes vidya we'll find out in time.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 23, 2022, 05:20:21 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on August 23, 2022, 04:41:52 PM
If characters can be buffed through microtransactions, then that is what WotC will push because it makes them money. Remember Pun-Pun from 3.x? That ridiculous thought experiment about character optimization that lets you start out as a God at level 1? That will become the norm with microtransactions guiding character creation and no DM to say "no" to the player.

You might be jesting but I've got a sneaking suspicion that DMs will become embattled or that WotC wants to completely remove DM's somehow. I don't know how, just that I see this as player empowerment and the player going, "this is a totally legal character based on true one d&d you have to let me play it"

I wish that I was joking, but that is the future that I see. Whoever has the most money to spend on microtransactions, will have the most powerful character.

They're giving me so many reasons to stick with 2014 D&D. DnD Beyond will no longer be useable, but Roll20 should be ok.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2022, 01:29:50 PM

Which doesn't address my arguments:

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2022, 01:29:50 PMWhy do we need WotC or any other corpo creating their own RPGAAS? (RPGs As A Service)

We don't

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2022, 01:29:50 PM
Where's the advantage of not owning the game but renting it from them?

Nothing good. Probably so they can control how the game is run/played.   I am a fan of subscription version of Microsoft Office, that makes sense.  But for role playing games and for D&D, I think it's really bad for players and the DM.  It's about them controlling what we do.  Screw that.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2022, 01:29:50 PM
Of getting banned for wrongthink outsiode their website?

As woke as WOTC is getting, you can bet money that this will happen.  No doubt they will put in their terms of service that if they ban you for wrongthink, you're money wont be refunded.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2022, 01:29:50 PM
If you ask me we need more opensource of good quality and easy to implement VTTs not more corpo slug. Owlbear Rodeo promised to release the code of their v1.0 after they launch the v2.0. I'm all for more of that. Being able to host MY OWN VTT for my games in an easy way and that the players can access as easy as they currently access Owlbear Rodeo? Sign me the fuck up!

Yes, more competition and less monopiles are always a good thing.