Fine with me, still got the 5E books if I ever choose to play it (probably not). I'll just stick to playing Palladium games, and I say this as someone who technically counts as a millennial.

Interesting non-political points raised against the One D&D agenda

Quote from: dungeon crawler on August 22, 2022, 09:10:06 AM
I see this going the way of 4E. Big hype that dies off quickly. I look for physical books to be phased out at some point soon because they are the only protection from digital tyranny.

There will be an outcry, when the move to digital only happens; but I'm sure it will be touted as being green, and environmentally friendly.   We have to stop killing trees to print books, etc.  We old Grognards are just a bunch of tree haters.

Quote from: Jam The MF on August 22, 2022, 02:21:24 PM

Quote from: dungeon crawler on August 22, 2022, 09:10:06 AM
I see this going the way of 4E. Big hype that dies off quickly. I look for physical books to be phased out at some point soon because they are the only protection from digital tyranny.

There will be an outcry, when the move to digital only happens; but I'm sure it will be touted as being green, and environmentally friendly.   We have to stop killing trees to print books, etc.  We old Grognards are just a bunch of tree haters.

As a person with pretty bad pollen allergies, fuck them trees.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on August 22, 2022, 04:20:27 AM

Quote from: amacris on August 22, 2022, 12:41:06 AM
In my opinion, tabletop RPGs have one major feature that neither boardgames nor videogames have, and that is that the live GM is able to provide total agency to the players to do what they want to do. In Axis & Allies you cannot decide to research an Antarctic base for the Axis, but if it were an RPG you could. Unfortunately, VTT works against this in every way. Instead of being able to freely improvise, the GM becomes constrained by the limits of the VTT. I've noticed this in running ACKS live and ACKS in VTT.

How is that? I've played TTRPGs online with Roll20 and Foundry and didn't find any serious limitations at all. Our group used Discord to communicate. The players were free to do anything they wanted with their characters, limited only by the constraints of the game world, just like in a face-to-face game. The GMs frequently improvised. Besides its benefits during the covid lockdown, online play has other advantages:
1. It's much easier to find players who are willing to play obscure games (I don't play D&D 5e - ever!).
2. You don't waste time commuting to the gaming location. This is an especially important consideration for me on weekdays.
3. Players who have young children can stay at home with them and don't have to hire a babysitter.

I don't dispute that online play has some advantages. If it didn't, it wouldn't be popular. I agree with 1, 2, and 3.  But where I think you're wrong is "limited only by the constraints of the game world." That's simply not true for all use cases.

I'm running my own Auran Empire campaign setting both in person and online. I've run the campaign three times before. Right now I have 8 players in my home group and 8 players in my online group, each with 2-3 henchmen. I have 40 dungeons in my sandbox for the Auran Empire, all designed and ready for use. My in-person group plays with a wet-erase battlemap and minis. My online group plays with Foundry and Discord.

In my home game, the group can and does simply go anywhere they want. I can sketch out things on a battle map in a matter of seconds, just referencing my notes. I can introduce new monsters unique to the dungeon without issue.

In my online game, anytime the group goes somewhere, it becomes a question: "did I set this map up already with walls, lighting, creatures, and so on." If I didn't, then the group will have a much less enjoyable experience. They *like* the fancy maps, the dynamic lighting, the automated attacks and saves. If faced with a prospect of playing VTT without those, often they will say "well, let's go someplace the GM has prepped." When they do play, then gameplay slows to a crawl, because I cannot use any of the automated functions that make VTT fast enough to be enjoyable. If we want to do Domains at War, we need to switch into an entirely different platform with those mechanics set up. VTT forces me into a trade-off where I either have to spend hours prepping before hand, much more than for pen and paper, or gameplay slows down terribly. The game *can* still be run, but the quality erodes greatly.

TLDR: I think VTT with all the bells and whistles is as fun as face to face gaming, but the bells and whistles take a ton of GM time and can't be improvised. VTT without all the bells and whistles is not as fun as face to face gaming, in my opinion, and in the opinion of those I game with, so it discourages sandbox play that requires improvisation. Conversely, face to face gaming doesn't need bells and whistles to be fun; fancy Dwarf Forge setups and perfect miniatures are just an added bonus. If your group loves VTT without the bells and whistles, great, but that's not the case for mine.

Quote from: overstory on August 22, 2022, 01:44:19 PM
Interesting non-political points raised against the One D&D agenda

That was an EXCELLENT video. Everything he says is correct. This is a must-watch.

Quote from: amacris on August 22, 2022, 03:02:33 PM
That was an EXCELLENT video. Everything he says is correct. This is a must-watch.

  I saw the video circulating and was coming here to point out its agreement with your core points.

  So when do we get the ACKS: Quill & Parchment Edition that leans into TotM, tabletop-focused gaming and management?

Quote from: amacris on August 22, 2022, 02:55:34 PM
In my online game, anytime the group goes somewhere, it becomes a question: "did I set this map up already with walls, lighting, creatures, and so on." If I didn't, then the group will have a much less enjoyable experience. They *like* the fancy maps, the dynamic lighting, the automated attacks and saves. If faced with a prospect of playing VTT without those, often they will say "well, let's go someplace the GM has prepped." When they do play, then gameplay slows to a crawl, because I cannot use any of the automated functions that make VTT fast enough to be enjoyable.

This makes me feel very fortunate in my players! Most of them dislike Roll20 Dynamic Lighting so I just use Fog of War, and they all seem A-OK with playing on the black & white map that came in the product - I ran my first session of Arden Vul tonight and they all seemed happy, even the one whose PC died.  The PC sheets were automated but I rolled manually for the NPC enemies.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on August 22, 2022, 03:14:37 PM

Quote from: amacris on August 22, 2022, 03:02:33 PM
That was an EXCELLENT video. Everything he says is correct. This is a must-watch.

  I saw the video circulating and was coming here to point out its agreement with your core points.

  So when do we get the ACKS: Quill & Parchment Edition that leans into TotM, tabletop-focused gaming and management?

Honestly it's something I think would be interesting to discuss. Two of my more popular KSs had lots of on-table play aids (Dwimmermount and Domains at War) but the cost of goods and production time was very high. I'd be curious what would help make ACKS standout.

A campaign setting box with a big sexy world map and handouts with a tangible feel?
A set of miniatures for the Auran Empire setting?
A new version of D@W that uses minis instead of flat counters?
An online character creator?
An online domain manager?
An online spell builder for the magic research rules?

Just not sure. I have a ton of backend tools but it's all manual.

Quote from: S'mon on August 22, 2022, 03:43:58 PM

Quote from: amacris on August 22, 2022, 02:55:34 PM
In my online game, anytime the group goes somewhere, it becomes a question: "did I set this map up already with walls, lighting, creatures, and so on." If I didn't, then the group will have a much less enjoyable experience. They *like* the fancy maps, the dynamic lighting, the automated attacks and saves. If faced with a prospect of playing VTT without those, often they will say "well, let's go someplace the GM has prepped." When they do play, then gameplay slows to a crawl, because I cannot use any of the automated functions that make VTT fast enough to be enjoyable.

This makes me feel very fortunate in my players! Most of them dislike Roll20 Dynamic Lighting so I just use Fog of War, and they all seem A-OK with playing on the black & white map that came in the product - I ran my first session of Arden Vul tonight and they all seemed happy, even the one whose PC died.  The PC sheets were automated but I rolled manually for the NPC enemies.

I wonderi f Roll20 is a bit easier to use improvisationally then Foundry because of its clean Fog of War system. As far as I know, Foundry doesn't support a simple fog of war where the GM just treats it like an erasable playmat.

Quote from: amacris on August 22, 2022, 05:10:32 PM
Honestly it's something I think would be interesting to discuss. Two of my more popular KSs had lots of on-table play aids (Dwimmermount and Domains at War) but the cost of goods and production time was very high. I'd be curious what would help make ACKS standout.

A campaign setting box with a big sexy world map and handouts with a tangible feel?
A set of miniatures for the Auran Empire setting?
A new version of D@W that uses minis instead of flat counters?
An online character creator?
An online domain manager?
An online spell builder for the magic research rules?

Just not sure. I have a ton of backend tools but it's all manual.

   Despite referring to the tabletop, I suspect one of the best ways to leverage ACKS's strengths might be to lean into open digital content--full hyperlinked SRDs and tools for campaign wikis with character/domain/spell/class/monster/location builders that can both interlink and output nice documents for at-table use. But I have no idea how feasible that is.

Quote from: amacris on August 22, 2022, 02:55:34 PM
TLDR: I think VTT with all the bells and whistles is as fun as face to face gaming, but the bells and whistles take a ton of GM time and can't be improvised. VTT without all the bells and whistles is not as fun as face to face gaming, in my opinion, and in the opinion of those I game with, so it discourages sandbox play that requires improvisation. Conversely, face to face gaming doesn't need bells and whistles to be fun; fancy Dwarf Forge setups and perfect miniatures are just an added bonus. If your group loves VTT without the bells and whistles, great, but that's not the case for mine.

I played an online Call of Cthulhu campaign for a year using Roll20. The GM always just drew the maps freehand, and it worked fine. There's some learning curve to drawing on an online map, but once you learn it, it's just as easy as a battle map. Also, battle maps aren't even necessary for games. Plenty of my games - online and in-person - have used just verbal description and/or a simple sketch.

I believe that is your groups' preference -- but it's equally true that some groups prefer to use painted minis, Dwarven Forge, dungeon tiles, or similar materials in person while you don't. Maybe your preference is more common, but it's something that varies a lot.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on August 22, 2022, 05:38:03 AM
I guess WotC doesn't like theater of the mind because they can't monetize it.

Bingo.

While I have no animus towards people who play online, especially when it's their only option, for me it's the poor quality, last resort, maybe once in a while choice.
During Covid I gave online TTRPGing a serious shot, and grew to really hate it. Not only because it lost a lot of the tactile elements, like rolling plastic dice, shuffling papers, looking things up in books, and drawing locations out on a dry erase mat, the act of communication without seeing the other person (tiny fuzzy video elements are not even in the same realm) or having 3-4 people try to communicate without those cues as to who is about to speak, who is finished, means lots of talking at once, then everyone goes silent, then everyone talks at once again... I could go on.

I play in person, with real tangible things because I like it, and I do think it's the superior experience.

The attempts by WOTC to "monetize" a game that is monetization-proof is just frustrating to watch. I don't know if I'm more concerned that the game suffers from the attempts, or that eventually they'll somehow figure out how to do it.

Quote from: jhkim on August 22, 2022, 05:58:32 PM

Quote from: amacris on August 22, 2022, 02:55:34 PM
TLDR: I think VTT with all the bells and whistles is as fun as face to face gaming, but the bells and whistles take a ton of GM time and can't be improvised. VTT without all the bells and whistles is not as fun as face to face gaming, in my opinion, and in the opinion of those I game with, so it discourages sandbox play that requires improvisation. Conversely, face to face gaming doesn't need bells and whistles to be fun; fancy Dwarf Forge setups and perfect miniatures are just an added bonus. If your group loves VTT without the bells and whistles, great, but that's not the case for mine.

I played an online Call of Cthulhu campaign for a year using Roll20. The GM always just drew the maps freehand, and it worked fine. There's some learning curve to drawing on an online map, but once you learn it, it's just as easy as a battle map. Also, battle maps aren't even necessary for games. Plenty of my games - online and in-person - have used just verbal description and/or a simple sketch.

I believe that is your groups' preference -- but it's equally true that some groups prefer to use painted minis, Dwarven Forge, dungeon tiles, or similar materials in person while you don't. Maybe your preference is more common, but it's something that varies a lot.

I do agree that it depends on preferences but it also depends on the game. This is why I said earlier that it depended on your use case. The type of game I most like -- sandbox campaigns with detailed tactical combat -- are hard for VTT. You either give up most of the bells and whistles, or you give up all your free time prepping. 

OTOH, I can play my superhero RPG Ascendant theater-of-mind. In fact, when I run Ascendant, I don't even use Roll20 -- I just use Discord. Easy as can be. But it's a different use case. When I run Ascendant in person, I don't use a battlemap or minis either.

Quote from: joewolz on August 20, 2022, 10:12:35 PM
I don't know y'all. I've heard all these complaints before and it's never impacted my gaming. The hobby will get stupid small again when D&D is declared satanic again or someone else comes for it and cancels it. I mean, I could be wrong and the sky is actually falling...but I've heard this before, and while I may not know the lyrics, I know the tune.

If you game at home it will likely never impact your gaming.

But if you play at say game shops, cons or other venues. Then the various woke agendas infesting gaming is alot more likely to impact you somehow. Depending on how much a foothold the cult gets in an area.

I agree alot of the complaints are a bit hollow as the complainers tend to be those that game at home. But some of us do game at stores and such and in the past it has severely impacted me sooooo. I worn people just how bad this can get. Because it can and it very much is for others.

Just because right now it is not impacting you or me does not mean nothing it happening.

The sky is not falling. The sky fell and we are sifting through the rubble of whats left.