With the new "revised edition" it's #OneDnD to rule them all, and in the wokeness bind them....
#dnd #dnd5e #ttrpg #osr

I've been waiting to hear your take on it, Pundit.  Like the rising of the sun, I knew it was forthcoming.

The mental patients have taken over the insane asylum.

In its current form it looks... odd. Hard to say how it will mutate from that first seed.

I still have the early 5e playtests and those changed a fair amount within a few iterations.

The big factor is how much they listen again to feedback. Last time they were fairly good at it.

But that was before WOTC went off the deep end.

They forgot that magic items exist to make a Halfling as strong as an ogre or a giant!   

I saw issues with this coming a mile away, if you guys didn't notice they purged legacy content and old edition galleries from their sites in April of this year.
I don't have the exact day though.

Quote from: TrueWOPR on August 20, 2022, 03:14:17 AM
I saw issues with this coming a mile away, if you guys didn't notice they purged legacy content and old edition galleries from their sites in April of this year.
I don't have the exact day though.

StOp BeInG PeSsImisTic! YoU CAn StILL PlAy Old eDitIonS oF DnD!

When those editions get harder to find it incentivizes Zoomers who already want to go to digital solutions to only pursue this app. Maybe some of you only play with gamers the same age or older than yourselves. But I often find myself playing games for Zoomers. They aren't bad people and my current group is actually the most well behaved and respectful group I've had. But they desperately want to switch to digital solutions. Zoomers want everything easy and digital. And not all of them have an autistic grognard millennial to teach them a better way. Most groups of zoomers have a zoomer GM who doesn't care or doesn't know about older editions. Listens to WotC guidelines like it's the bible. And do whatever Matt Mercer tells them to. Because he's the bestest GM ever. Just because your group are aging millennials in their 30's at best who remember when DnD was a little more free and homebrew friendly doesn't mean the CURRENT TARGET AUDIENCE of DnD is the same.  My group ask me constantly why we can't just play 5E because DnD Beyond and Roll 20 and digital this and that. I don't go into too much with them because I don't want to just look like the old man yelling at a cloud. But I do explain we're playing OSE. Which is not compatible with rigid 5e digital solutions. I'm lucky my group are enjoying the game and tell me they have fun. And I got them all into the OSR. Which has influenced their other games so I'm told. But you can't expect that from every group of Zoomers.   

I said this in a previous thread, One DnD is a way to seize control of the way you play DnD. Play other games all you want. When the players dry up because nearly everyone is playing One DnD over physical games you are going to find it hard to find other games. WotC don't care if it"doesn't make good business sense" they've never cared for Grognards because the zoomers and Critical Role lot who just swallow whatever is given will subsidize WotC no matter what they do. WotC have done a lot to drive away customers because THEY. DON'T WANT. YOU. They are not making this FOR YOU! They will make more money from locking down DnD into a software they control then they ever will selling books in a store. Just get Matt Mercer on board with some tie ins exclusive to DnD Beyond and the battle is lost. WotC are not struggling. They aren't losing customers. And the general feedback for this app is good amongst the zoomers. They can't wait to turn DnD into a completely digital experience they have no control whatsoever over.

You may well see WotC start to go after repositories of old DnD content. And give some bs excuse that "old content doesn't have the latest balance and will harm the integrity of the community due to harmful content from a lesser time.". Maybe I'm wrong. I'm just being a moany pessimistic bastard. Except I've been right before about WotC doing anti consumer things. And I've been right before about WotC not caring if it drives people away because they want a more pliable audience that has been proven to exist and be profitable. I had a friend laugh in my face when I said I reckoned WotC were going to remove racial bonuses and just make race a thing to fill in the character sheet with as much meaning as a name and biography. "They'll never do that, they'll alienate their core audience."

He apologized to me when 5.5 was announced. I hope what I theorize doesn't happen. But it will. And you're all going to notice within the next 2 years. I only hope the OSR can keep up and offer something enticing to younger gamers.

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 20, 2022, 10:05:18 AM

Quote from: TrueWOPR on August 20, 2022, 03:14:17 AM
I saw issues with this coming a mile away, if you guys didn't notice they purged legacy content and old edition galleries from their sites in April of this year.
I don't have the exact day though.

StOp BeInG PeSsImisTic! YoU CAn StILL PlAy Old eDitIonS oF DnD!

When those editions get harder to find it incentivizes Zoomers who already want to go to digital solutions to only pursue this app. Maybe some of you only play with gamers the same age or older than yourselves. But I often find myself playing games for Zoomers. They aren't bad people and my current group is actually the most well behaved and respectful group I've had. But they desperately want to switch to digital solutions. Zoomers want everything easy and digital. And not all of them have an autistic grognard millennial to teach them a better way. Most groups of zoomers have a zoomer GM who doesn't care or doesn't know about older editions. Listens to WotC guidelines like it's the bible. And do whatever Matt Mercer tells them to. Because he's the bestest GM ever. Just because your group are aging millennials in their 30's at best who remember when DnD was a little more free and homebrew friendly doesn't mean the CURRENT TARGET AUDIENCE of DnD is the same.  My group ask me constantly why we can't just play 5E because DnD Beyond and Roll 20 and digital this and that. I don't go into too much with them because I don't want to just look like the old man yelling at a cloud. But I do explain we're playing OSE. Which is not compatible with rigid 5e digital solutions. I'm lucky my group are enjoying the game and tell me they have fun. And I got them all into the OSR. Which has influenced their other games so I'm told. But you can't expect that from every group of Zoomers.   

I said this in a previous thread, One DnD is a way to seize control of the way you play DnD. Play other games all you want. When the players dry up because nearly everyone is playing One DnD over physical games you are going to find it hard to find other games. WotC don't care if it"doesn't make good business sense" they've never cared for Grognards because the zoomers and Critical Role lot who just swallow whatever is given will subsidize WotC no matter what they do. WotC have done a lot to drive away customers because THEY. DON'T WANT. YOU. They are not making this FOR YOU! They will make more money from locking down DnD into a software they control then they ever will selling books in a store. Just get Matt Mercer on board with some tie ins exclusive to DnD Beyond and the battle is lost. WotC are not struggling. They aren't losing customers. And the general feedback for this app is good amongst the zoomers. They can't wait to turn DnD into a completely digital experience they have no control whatsoever over.

You may well see WotC start to go after repositories of old DnD content. And give some bs excuse that "old content doesn't have the latest balance and will harm the integrity of the community due to harmful content from a lesser time.". Maybe I'm wrong. I'm just being a moany pessimistic bastard. Except I've been right before about WotC doing anti consumer things. And I've been right before about WotC not caring if it drives people away because they want a more pliable audience that has been proven to exist and be profitable. I had a friend laugh in my face when I said I reckoned WotC were going to remove racial bonuses and just make race a thing to fill in the character sheet with as much meaning as a name and biography. "They'll never do that, they'll alienate their core audience."

He apologized to me when 5.5 was announced. I hope what I theorize doesn't happen. But it will. And you're all going to notice within the next 2 years. I only hope the OSR can keep up and offer something enticing to younger gamers.

Greetings!

Strong analysis, Sir!

I think much of it is likely to be very accurate. Sadly.

Ahh, well. There is the OSR. As far as "Enticing Zoomers"--there are Game books. Dice. Miniatures. Pencils and Graph Paper. Friends gathered around a table. Food and drinks. And fine cigars.

I got into playing AD&D with the BOOKS--when I was 10 years old. No computers or digital anything necessary.

Imagine that!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on August 20, 2022, 10:41:02 AM

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 20, 2022, 10:05:18 AM

Quote from: TrueWOPR on August 20, 2022, 03:14:17 AM
I saw issues with this coming a mile away, if you guys didn't notice they purged legacy content and old edition galleries from their sites in April of this year.
I don't have the exact day though.

StOp BeInG PeSsImisTic! YoU CAn StILL PlAy Old eDitIonS oF DnD!

When those editions get harder to find it incentivizes Zoomers who already want to go to digital solutions to only pursue this app. Maybe some of you only play with gamers the same age or older than yourselves. But I often find myself playing games for Zoomers. They aren't bad people and my current group is actually the most well behaved and respectful group I've had. But they desperately want to switch to digital solutions. Zoomers want everything easy and digital. And not all of them have an autistic grognard millennial to teach them a better way. Most groups of zoomers have a zoomer GM who doesn't care or doesn't know about older editions. Listens to WotC guidelines like it's the bible. And do whatever Matt Mercer tells them to. Because he's the bestest GM ever. Just because your group are aging millennials in their 30's at best who remember when DnD was a little more free and homebrew friendly doesn't mean the CURRENT TARGET AUDIENCE of DnD is the same.  My group ask me constantly why we can't just play 5E because DnD Beyond and Roll 20 and digital this and that. I don't go into too much with them because I don't want to just look like the old man yelling at a cloud. But I do explain we're playing OSE. Which is not compatible with rigid 5e digital solutions. I'm lucky my group are enjoying the game and tell me they have fun. And I got them all into the OSR. Which has influenced their other games so I'm told. But you can't expect that from every group of Zoomers.   

I said this in a previous thread, One DnD is a way to seize control of the way you play DnD. Play other games all you want. When the players dry up because nearly everyone is playing One DnD over physical games you are going to find it hard to find other games. WotC don't care if it"doesn't make good business sense" they've never cared for Grognards because the zoomers and Critical Role lot who just swallow whatever is given will subsidize WotC no matter what they do. WotC have done a lot to drive away customers because THEY. DON'T WANT. YOU. They are not making this FOR YOU! They will make more money from locking down DnD into a software they control then they ever will selling books in a store. Just get Matt Mercer on board with some tie ins exclusive to DnD Beyond and the battle is lost. WotC are not struggling. They aren't losing customers. And the general feedback for this app is good amongst the zoomers. They can't wait to turn DnD into a completely digital experience they have no control whatsoever over.

You may well see WotC start to go after repositories of old DnD content. And give some bs excuse that "old content doesn't have the latest balance and will harm the integrity of the community due to harmful content from a lesser time.". Maybe I'm wrong. I'm just being a moany pessimistic bastard. Except I've been right before about WotC doing anti consumer things. And I've been right before about WotC not caring if it drives people away because they want a more pliable audience that has been proven to exist and be profitable. I had a friend laugh in my face when I said I reckoned WotC were going to remove racial bonuses and just make race a thing to fill in the character sheet with as much meaning as a name and biography. "They'll never do that, they'll alienate their core audience."

He apologized to me when 5.5 was announced. I hope what I theorize doesn't happen. But it will. And you're all going to notice within the next 2 years. I only hope the OSR can keep up and offer something enticing to younger gamers.

Greetings!

Strong analysis, Sir!

I think much of it is likely to be very accurate. Sadly.

Ahh, well. There is the OSR. As far as "Enticing Zoomers"--there are Game books. Dice. Miniatures. Pencils and Graph Paper. Friends gathered around a table. Food and drinks. And fine cigars.

I got into playing AD&D with the BOOKS--when I was 10 years old. No computers or digital anything necessary.

Imagine that!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Most Zoomers don't read but digital books, some not even that because an audio book requires less efort.

King Tyrano is correct, Zoomers are used to video games, phones, etc they don't really own.

If the OSR or anyone else wants a piece of that pay they better make an app for it.

The RPG underground scene (like the OSR) is where all the exciting developments happen.

So I don't really mind what happens to 5e, and in fact, I think it might actually be a good thing as it will suck up a lot of those the kiddy wokescolds and faux hobbyists.

Good riddance I say!

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 20, 2022, 10:05:18 AMWhen those editions get harder to find it incentivizes Zoomers who already want to go to digital solutions to only pursue this app.

Digital D&D is a dead end. Inevitably, a multi-player computer game will be released that has 90% of what a digital D&D session has and everyone will switch over. Hasbro hopes that such a game is D&D branded but that isn't a certainty.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 20, 2022, 11:16:04 AMI think it might actually be a good thing as it will suck up a lot of those the kiddy wokescolds and faux hobbyists.

Exactly. People who only want to play D&D through an app are not in the same hobby that I am. To thrive, old school RPGs need to focus on what can only be done in a face-to-face situation. Stop trying to make the game deterministic and easily app-able.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 20, 2022, 11:16:04 AM
The RPG underground scene (like the OSR) is where all the exciting developments happen.

So I don't really mind what happens to 5e, and in fact, I think it might actually be a good thing as it will suck up a lot of those the kiddy wokescolds and faux hobbyists.

Good riddance I say!

The wokescolds and faux hobbyists have never been interested in the OSR in the first place. Can you guarantee that you'll always be able to find people willing to play the niche and barely known RPGs of the OSR? If you can, cool. You have nothing to worry about. But I had trouble for years just getting a group for something like Call of Cthulhu or VtM. Most people just lean towards whatever is popular at the time unfortunately. And you end up in a position where you either have to play the latest version of DnD. Or just don't play RPGs at all.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 20, 2022, 11:35:14 AM

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 20, 2022, 10:05:18 AMWhen those editions get harder to find it incentivizes Zoomers who already want to go to digital solutions to only pursue this app.

Digital D&D is a dead end. Inevitably, a multi-player computer game will be released that has 90% of what a digital D&D session has and everyone will switch over. Hasbro hopes that such a game is D&D branded but that isn't a certainty.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 20, 2022, 11:16:04 AMI think it might actually be a good thing as it will suck up a lot of those the kiddy wokescolds and faux hobbyists.

Exactly. People who only want to play D&D through an app are not in the same hobby that I am. To thrive, old school RPGs need to focus on what can only be done in a face-to-face situation. Stop trying to make the game deterministic and easily app-able.

Recently I had a conversation with a friend of my current group of Zoomers who wanted to join. Let me try to remember it.

"Hey I'm running an RPG session. Do you wanna join, it's super cool."
"Oh yeah that Dungeon and Dragons thing."
"Oh this is Old School Essentials. It's an old edition of DnD. But cleaned up and super simple to use."
"Why aren't you using the new version of DnD. The old versions are buggy and complicated. All the you tubers make it seem so complicated and like there's lots of reading."
"Well if you want to try this game you might be surprised. It was designed to be simple for beginners. It's actually a lot like 5e"
"Okay, where's the app?"
"Oh there's no app. You get dice, a pencil and paper. It's really simple."
"No app? How do you calculate all the dice stuff then? That's way too complicated for normal people."

Now bear in mind this was a 12 year old so I was patient. He wasn't interested and that's okay. I didn't push it much further. But what I'm trying to get at is this. YOU may define DnD one way. And make a distinction that everything is separate. But you are making a dangerous assumption that other people will be as knowledgeable as you and make the right choice. And distinguish things as you do. Or at the very least people who think like you are either in the majority or are at least in enough supply that you can find groups easily.  When in actuality. The core demographic being targeted sees DnD in Stranger Things and thinks they are playing the same DnD to fit in with all the other people playing DnD. They are told DnD is online now. And that's it. That's DnD for those people. If you play in a way the majority does not you are not fitting in and you won't make friends that way.

I don't think you're right about computer games though. Even ignoring the fact that DnD has far less of an entry point than the average video game, Lots of computer games offer "90% of what a digital DnD session has" Off the top of my head, Neverwinter Nights with it's persistant worlds and GM tools, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 with multiplayer, every MMO ever made. But people want to play DnD as a game for the lifestyle brand recognition. They are specifically playing that thing that Critical Role and Stranger Things said was cool. You can run One DnD on your shitty phone or tablet. Which everyone has. As opposed to a games console or a gaming PC. Which are expensive.

Lok at all the money I will save by NOT buying One D&D. Like I have been anything WOTC lately. I don't care if it is the bestest D&D EVAR! Until WOTC renounces wokeness I will not be their customer.

I have a friend, a Gen X woman, who basically refuses to play anything other than PF1E. She will no longer play D&D3E or either incarnation of the d20 Star Wars, despite Star Wars being her absolute favoritest evar IP. She might possibly play Starfinder, I haven't seriously proposed it. Anything that isn't d20-based is right out. The reason for this is very simple. Everything in PF1E is contained in an SRD format, and there are three SRDs in case one ever goes down.

It isn't just Zoomers. Nobody wants books. Everyone wants wikis. They want to see all of their classes displayed on a table with links to take them to each individual class page. They want to see all of their spells displayed as a table arranged by level for any class they want, where they can click the spell they want. They do not want to have to remember what books to look in for all of their feats and spells and magic items. They want it all in one resource. This is why the hobby exploded in the d20 era. Most people aren't walking indices of book and page number references.

The only thing different about the Zoomers is that they always had this stuff. There are no Zoomers who have the notion that flipping through books is The Way. They always had wikis. Millennials and older learned with books, and so they have an irrational bias for books, but even the older generations prefer wikis. The more products you have, the more important it becomes to have a wiki.

And having the WotC stamp matters. Not everything put out by WotC is of equal quality, and there are people outside of WotC that produce better content than WotC. However, once you get outside of WoTC, D&D content conforms neatly to Sturgeon's Law. The best thing for any given GM to do is just ignore all D&D content that isn't published by WoTC. Yes, there are going to be some gems that you pass up on like <insert your favorite 3rd party product that totally blew your mind>, but you also don't wade through all of the crap being published by morons with delusions of grandeur.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 20, 2022, 11:35:14 AM
Digital D&D is a dead end. Inevitably, a multi-player computer game will be released that has 90% of what a digital D&D session has and everyone will switch over. Hasbro hopes that such a game is D&D branded but that isn't a certainty.

People have been saying this for decades -- citing MMORPGs like World of Warcraft -- but currently, it seems to me that D&D is bigger than it has ever been. I was just on a road trip through the Southwest, and the park ranger as we entered the Grand Canyon told us that she had an all-ranger play group she was in - though she was the only one who played a ranger. (heh!)

I don't think the future is going to be either all-digital or no-electronics. Some DMs like me will like having their laptop and other computerized play aids, even when playing in person.