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Author Topic: The OneDnD Agenda  (Read 36642 times)

Armchair Gamer

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #375 on: October 05, 2022, 11:21:34 AM »
And some think that the OneVTT will be just another option among other VTT...

"...for D&D Beyond, you need perfect translation between VTT and in-person play. Whatever ruling is made for how something works in the VTT, it must be the standard rule for in-person play as well. People will use the VTT to justify rules arguments and will run simulations to prove how things should work. ..."

"While people who play other systems can lean more into Rule Zero; D&D will have rigidly enforced rules. The entire Min-Max community will be able to get definitive answers on a lot of things. Imagine the videos people will put out showing their optimized builds in action. Players will get upset when things that work in the VTT don't work at the table. ..."


  Where are these quotes coming from? Someone at WotC, someone enthusiastic about D&D Beyond and One D&D, or someone predicting the worst-case scenario? I don't doubt that this is a possible result, but I'd like clearer attribution.
 
  Although my interest is academic--I'm pretty much done with any form of D&D, if not the hobby as a whole. :)

blackstone

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #376 on: October 05, 2022, 12:41:48 PM »
And some think that the OneVTT will be just another option among other VTT...

"...for D&D Beyond, you need perfect translation between VTT and in-person play. Whatever ruling is made for how something works in the VTT, it must be the standard rule for in-person play as well. People will use the VTT to justify rules arguments and will run simulations to prove how things should work. ..."

"While people who play other systems can lean more into Rule Zero; D&D will have rigidly enforced rules. The entire Min-Max community will be able to get definitive answers on a lot of things. Imagine the videos people will put out showing their optimized builds in action. Players will get upset when things that work in the VTT don't work at the table. ..."


  Where are these quotes coming from? Someone at WotC, someone enthusiastic about D&D Beyond and One D&D, or someone predicting the worst-case scenario? I don't doubt that this is a possible result, but I'd like clearer attribution.
 
  Although my interest is academic--I'm pretty much done with any form of D&D, if not the hobby as a whole. :)

In regard to what I put in bold: that's kinda sad. Sorry to hear that.

Omega

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #377 on: October 05, 2022, 01:42:51 PM »
This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”
~C.S Lewis

Ot is worse than that because these moral busybodies only want to 'cure' those they hallucinate are 'sick'. While at the same time trying to make things ever worse for those minorities and handicapped they claim to be 'protecting'.

And people like WOTC and 90% of of the entertainment biz now are worse yet because they do not even look at us as even animals. Merely as a check mark on a quota to be used and discarded.

Jam The MF

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #378 on: October 05, 2022, 01:59:03 PM »
This has been quite a thread, so far.

If you run any edition of D&D, that you actually own hard copies for; you own that game, and you can run it without giving two farts about what WOTC does with One D&D.  If you are accessing the current WOTC rules online, which are subject to unlimited changes at any time; then you never really own that game.  Owning hard copy, matters. 

When you have hard copy; you can place it on the table and say, "we are playing this, and this only".  Of course, you can also create your own game, and piss on WOTC.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2022, 02:01:36 PM by Jam The MF »
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PulpHerb

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #379 on: October 05, 2022, 03:08:41 PM »
This has been quite a thread, so far.

If you run any edition of D&D, that you actually own hard copies for; you own that game, and you can run it without giving two farts about what WOTC does with One D&D.  If you are accessing the current WOTC rules online, which are subject to unlimited changes at any time; then you never really own that game.  Owning hard copy, matters. 

When you have hard copy; you can place it on the table and say, "we are playing this, and this only".  Of course, you can also create your own game, and piss on WOTC.

Although I'm not one to encourage it for currently available for sale products, you can probably get everything for prior editions via informal means. You can get most, if not all, legally in PDF, but I'm not sure if that will last.

They even have the disclaimer on the Upfront card game, which is about WW2 combat.

jhkim

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #380 on: October 05, 2022, 03:11:57 PM »
And some think that the OneVTT will be just another option among other VTT...

"...for D&D Beyond, you need perfect translation between VTT and in-person play. Whatever ruling is made for how something works in the VTT, it must be the standard rule for in-person play as well. People will use the VTT to justify rules arguments and will run simulations to prove how things should work. ..."

"While people who play other systems can lean more into Rule Zero; D&D will have rigidly enforced rules. The entire Min-Max community will be able to get definitive answers on a lot of things. Imagine the videos people will put out showing their optimized builds in action. Players will get upset when things that work in the VTT don't work at the table. ..."


  Where are these quotes coming from? Someone at WotC, someone enthusiastic about D&D Beyond and One D&D, or someone predicting the worst-case scenario? I don't doubt that this is a possible result, but I'd like clearer attribution.

Yeah. It's written to look like those are quotes of someone else, but I don't find any of that text from any search elsewhere, and I think it might just be Jaeger's own text.

Jaeger - did you quote that text from someone else? If so, who?

Jaeger

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #381 on: October 05, 2022, 05:13:18 PM »
...
Unfortunately we can see based on observed history it actually is a high bar. There's a lot of things many systems do better than D&D in many ways, but none has really made a dent on the 800lb gorilla except WotC itself with 4E.
...

I disagree again.

RPG History has shown that Being First along with good enough, is more than enough to establish a market/niche leader status in RPG land that is extremely hard for would-be competitors to overcome.


...
In their hubris, they've made D&D generic, boring, and safe.

IMO, D&D in no longer cool.
...

What's absolutely hilarious about all this is that baseline AD&D1e is really not that edgy to normal people. Not at the time of it's release, and certainly not now.

And from AD&D2e on the game has been consistently "watered down" its own content from there.

It has soldiered on successfully due to its first mover status in the hobby and cultural inertia. Now granted they are not making the same mistakes that they made with 4e.

They are making all new ones...


...
  Where are these quotes coming from? Someone at WotC, someone enthusiastic about D&D Beyond and One D&D, or someone predicting the worst-case scenario? I don't doubt that this is a possible result, but I'd like clearer attribution.
 
  Although my interest is academic--I'm pretty much done with any form of D&D, if not the hobby as a whole. :)

Just opinions from another forum that I happen to basically agree with, but didn't want to plagiarize.

Now will the OneVTT effect people who do their own thing? No.

On this or most forums? No. I largely agree with them because I see WotC D&D culture becoming more insulated and self-referential from the rest of the RPG hobby. Not that they will care, because WotC D&D is orders of magnitude bigger than the rest of the hobby.

And that's all a GOOD THING in my opinion!

The more official WotC D&D disappears up its own ass, the better off the hobby will be ten years from now.
"The envious are not satisfied with equality; they secretly yearn for superiority and revenge."

FingerRod

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #382 on: October 05, 2022, 07:51:32 PM »
...
  Where are these quotes coming from? Someone at WotC, someone enthusiastic about D&D Beyond and One D&D, or someone predicting the worst-case scenario? I don't doubt that this is a possible result, but I'd like clearer attribution.
 
  Although my interest is academic--I'm pretty much done with any form of D&D, if not the hobby as a whole. :)

Just opinions from another forum that I happen to basically agree with, but didn't want to plagiarize.

Now will the OneVTT effect people who do their own thing? No.

On this or most forums? No. I largely agree with them because I see WotC D&D culture becoming more insulated and self-referential from the rest of the RPG hobby. Not that they will care, because WotC D&D is orders of magnitude bigger than the rest of the hobby.

And that's all a GOOD THING in my opinion!

The more official WotC D&D disappears up its own ass, the better off the hobby will be ten years from now.

But you used those quotes as evidence against people “who think it will be just another VTT.”. Case in point, Geeky interpreted them to justify his position that they are going for a one true way.

I don’t know if they are or they aren’t going for a one true way. But I do know there has been no evidence presented. Just option and guesses. Right?

Jaeger

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #383 on: October 05, 2022, 08:29:02 PM »
...
But you used those quotes as evidence against people “who think it will be just another VTT.”. Case in point, Geeky interpreted them to justify his position that they are going for a one true way.

I don’t know if they are or they aren’t going for a one true way. But I do know there has been no evidence presented. Just option and guesses. Right?

What do you think the fallout of the OneVTT will be?

One option is that WotC pooches it, and One VTT will be just another VTT. Another is that they really pooch it and it ends up harming their precious brand.

But,... If they don't pooch it, and succeed in bringing in the majority of 5e players to one platform - then they will be the dominant VTT out there.

That could easily happen more readily than many are evidently willing to admit.

Look how the wider 'official DnD' player culture is now when it comes to pronouncements from the sage advice column? Look how they react to any restrictions of "official" material from the PHB?

You really think that crowd won't use how things are done in the "official" VTT to enforce rulings at the gaming table? No GM's ever in the history of RPGdom succumb to peer pressure from their players?

If anyone really thinks that a successful OneVTT won't have a negative effect on official D&D player culture; hit me up in a PM. I got this sweet Nevada real estate deal thing going near Yucca Mountain...

As for "evidence" "...that they are going for a one true way."

Dude, they are literally calling it: OneD&D!

I don't understand why some are having such trouble taking them at their word...
« Last Edit: October 05, 2022, 08:40:38 PM by Jaeger »
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Shrieking Banshee

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #384 on: October 05, 2022, 09:04:28 PM »
do you think the fallout of the OneVTT will be?

I think OneD&D will be dog crap, and I argue against stuff like micro-transactions all the time:

But using your own qoutes as evidence in favor of your own points is bad. If anything, it means future qoutes that do support your beliefs will be discarded as more things you just made uo.

Jaeger

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #385 on: October 05, 2022, 09:20:11 PM »
do you think the fallout of the OneVTT will be?

I think OneD&D will be dog crap, and I argue against stuff like micro-transactions all the time:

But using your own qoutes as evidence in favor of your own points is bad. If anything, it means future qoutes that do support your beliefs will be discarded as more things you just made uo.

Not my quotes. I explained that they were opinions I agreed with.

Anything official I have ALWAYS cited my source in the post. My entire post history is proof of that.

This is not the first time I’ve highlighted opinions I agreed with that way. With italics and quotation marks but not put into a ‘quote box’.
This is the first time people seem to have not made the distinction.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2022, 09:25:11 PM by Jaeger »
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FingerRod

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #386 on: October 06, 2022, 08:09:52 AM »
do you think the fallout of the OneVTT will be?

I think OneD&D will be dog crap, and I argue against stuff like micro-transactions all the time:

But using your own qoutes as evidence in favor of your own points is bad. If anything, it means future qoutes that do support your beliefs will be discarded as more things you just made uo.

Not my quotes. I explained that they were opinions I agreed with.

Anything official I have ALWAYS cited my source in the post. My entire post history is proof of that.

This is not the first time I’ve highlighted opinions I agreed with that way. With italics and quotation marks but not put into a ‘quote box’.
This is the first time people seem to have not made the distinction.

You did not present those quotes as opinions from rando posters on another board until they were questioned. To be fair, you also didn’t say they were from WotC either. That is why people asked for clarification. Realistically, only quotes from people on the project or from the company would be legitimate arguments against those who say WotC is simply making a VTT. For example, saying something I read on Twitter is true because I saw somebody say it on Facebook is not a good argument.

In almost all cases when I see you post, my first thought is, oh shit, Jaeger is about to take somebody to school. Your arguments are always well thought out, and I sincerely enjoy reading them. You are one of my favorite posters around here for that very reason. In this case, I simply believe the wording was awkward or just missing clarification. However, if you want to pretend that me and others are dumb or being intentionally obtuse, go ahead.

Back on topic. I don’t think for a second WotC is building a VTT hoping it is anything but successful at unseating Roll20. That should be their goal. Competition and innovation in the VTT space is good for all who use those tools (I don’t and I hate them). But the lines drawn from dominance in the VTT market to wanting to eliminate house rules (evidence I already asked for from another poster and received nothing back on), while not lacking emotion, are lacking in evidence. The same thing can be said to the claim they want the VTT experience to remove agency at the table or even carry over to home games.

Every product I have ever seen attempts to increase flexibility—start with core rules and add from there. D&D Beyond allows you to create from scratch or edit official monsters, treasure, and magic items. Over the years it has become more flexible, not less. Those are my very real world experiences. The ‘OneDnD Agenda’ would be a complete departure.

I am completely aware of the playbook. Calls for diversity proceed unity which proceed authoritative control. But that is only when authoritative control is the goal. It is nuanced, but the only part of the hobby that has ever been about standardization/unity/control/etc. is Adventurers’ League. And the goals, in that case, are not authoritative control, but rather about setting level expectations for DMs and players.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2022, 08:11:48 AM by FingerRod »

blackstone

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #387 on: October 06, 2022, 11:23:09 AM »
Jaeger,

I disagree with your assessment of AD&D back in the 80s. Have lived through that era of the "Satanic Panic", I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that quite a few people saw the game a dangerous, or at least weird.

...and I was ok with that.

because who wants a bunch of mundane types screw up the game and the greater culture that was built around it?

Not me.

For a kid who wasn't the best at sports, who had a knack for history, English lit, and some science-y stuff. A kid who gravitated towards Tolkien, HPL, etc. and enjoyed everything sci-fi like Star Trek, Star Wars, Space 1999, Dr. Who. When I found out there was a GAME that allowed me to create a character and play out exactly those sorts of things, I was hooked.

And when I went to my first convention, I finally saw there was a larger group, a culture, that didn't care what color you were, your religion, or your political beliefs. It was all about geek culture and everything about it, and it was GOOD.

Now? They have it BACKWARDS. They're putting the politics and the political correctness FIRST and saying if you're not they're side of the aisle politically, you are not a gamer.

That is wrong. 100% wrong.

This is why there has to be gatekeepers, and this gate has some easy to follow rules:

1. if you're into geek culture, you're in.
2. keep your politics, religion, and all other real world stuff OUT.
3. have fun.

but we can't have this now. not anymore. so, we have to create a sub-set of a sub-set: the OSR.

and if that's how it going to be, then fine.

Sorry for the rant.

Ruprecht

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #388 on: October 06, 2022, 11:27:39 AM »
The Satanic Panic influence depended mostly on where you were. In Northern California it was mostly a joke and there were some teachers using role playing games in classrooms. If you were in a more religious area I imagine it was much different.
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PulpHerb

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #389 on: October 06, 2022, 12:03:18 PM »
And when I went to my first convention, I finally saw there was a larger group, a culture, that didn't care what color you were, your religion, or your political beliefs. It was all about geek culture and everything about it, and it was GOOD.

Now? They have it BACKWARDS. They're putting the politics and the political correctness FIRST and saying if you're not they're side of the aisle politically, you are not a gamer.

That is wrong. 100% wrong.

This is why there has to be gatekeepers, and this gate has some easy to follow rules:

1. if you're into geek culture, you're in.
2. keep your politics, religion, and all other real world stuff OUT.
3. have fun.

This...I can't tell you the politics except with one possible exception of anyone I played with prior to the 90s. Part of that was being a "kid" (graduated HS in 1985), but in the 80s I played with mostly adults. Once, exactly one, one made a political comment I remember and that was complaining about someone wanting a book out of schools for being communist for supposedly a kid wearing a red shirt being communist. That makes no sense so the comment back then (35+ years ago) probably didn't either.

But that was the extent of politics discussed in-game or just hanging out outside of games.

I think the change is the failure of the old "don't discuss politics or religion" (can't tell you their religion either except for the son of my minster whose game I played in briefly...again, the knowing was coincidental to gaming) and its replacement with the very exhausting "the personal is the political" which I think even a lot of the leftists are getting exhausted by (the climax of the series The Good Place can be read as an attack on the idea).

While gatekeeping can help, until the poison of "the personal is the political" is replaced with "don't discuss politics or religion" we won't be completely rid of it.