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Author Topic: The OneDnD Agenda  (Read 21741 times)

GeekyBugle

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #300 on: September 06, 2022, 11:15:58 PM »
I'm not sure what research specifically you're talking about here as applying to OneD&D.

So I guess your completly ignorant of the microtransactional design process, skinner boxes, or the loot box model sweeping through videogames, and your last experience is purely with MMOs like World of Warcraft.

OK to summarize it briefly, with an inexact example:

Yes things like WOW are skinner boxes. You devote time to have the mental satisfaction of seeing your numbers go up. And there are a few rare addicts for whom that consumes all their time. Thats not what I am talking about.

Imagine if in World of Warcraft, you made it that ressurection after dying took 10 times as long (like 10 minutes), or instantly if you paid a dollar. But not even a dollar directly. 125 Warcraft coins. And you can only buy Warcraft coins in bundles of 670 for 8 dollars, with a 10% discount if you grabbed a bundle of 6,030 coins.

And then you strung that allong through all the core gameplay. Yes you can level up for killing monsters, but there is a cap on your progress (first every 10 levels, then every 5 levels, then 3, then 1 level) unless you get a  mega crystal which is intentionally designed to only drop once every 7 days (and only at 12 AM on a tuesday and if you miss that period its another 7 days wait)....Or of course instantly with 67 megaboons (only 5 cents per 10 boons).

And then lootboxes might be instead of paying directly for Warcraft coins or Megaboons, or Thriftgifts (which is a thing that actually allows you to repair your epic gear, which breaks down otherwise), you paid for a random chance to get one of them. A gamble effectively, except you don't even get money as a payout.

All of these tricks are designed to make you loose track of how much money you spend, or tap into the gambling addict, or people with weak self control, or people that want to play with friends, or just prey on human weakness. This IS recorded to work extremly effectivly and make so much money that the core experience is free.....Because the core experience is basically unplayable without either 25 times the normal free time required, or a continous stream of about 5-10 dollars an hour (after say the first 3 being free-ish).

How is this relevant to D&D?

Because WOTC hired basically a head honcho of such a buisness model to work on their VTT framework.

But, but... MMORPGs aren't addictive! I have a study to back it up! Never mind you're not talking about MMORPGs or even sugesting that D&D or similar games are addictive, here's my study that totally debunks the strawman I built in my head!
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

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jhkim

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #301 on: September 07, 2022, 05:01:13 PM »
I'm not sure what research specifically you're talking about here as applying to OneD&D.

So I guess your completly ignorant of the microtransactional design process, skinner boxes, or the loot box model sweeping through videogames, and your last experience is purely with MMOs like World of Warcraft.

The topic is about D&D, though. D&D also has rewards and loot, but even with a virtual tabletop, it isn't a video game. To clarify, I never played World of Warcraft or any other MMORPGs. I don't play any video games, really, except a few phone games (which might also qualify as addictive and which have microtransactions). I play a lot of RPGs and board games including virtual tabletops for both, though - and that is the topic of discussion here. I've also studied some addiction studies and some theory on gamification.


OK to summarize it briefly, with an inexact example:

Yes things like WOW are skinner boxes. You devote time to have the mental satisfaction of seeing your numbers go up. And there are a few rare addicts for whom that consumes all their time. Thats not what I am talking about.

Imagine if in World of Warcraft, you made it that ressurection after dying took 10 times as long (like 10 minutes), or instantly if you paid a dollar. But not even a dollar directly. 125 Warcraft coins. And you can only buy Warcraft coins in bundles of 670 for 8 dollars, with a 10% discount if you grabbed a bundle of 6,030 coins.

And then you strung that allong through all the core gameplay. Yes you can level up for killing monsters, but there is a cap on your progress (first every 10 levels, then every 5 levels, then 3, then 1 level) unless you get a  mega crystal which is intentionally designed to only drop once every 7 days (and only at 12 AM on a tuesday and if you miss that period its another 7 days wait)....Or of course instantly with 67 megaboons (only 5 cents per 10 boons).

And then lootboxes might be instead of paying directly for Warcraft coins or Megaboons, or Thriftgifts (which is a thing that actually allows you to repair your epic gear, which breaks down otherwise), you paid for a random chance to get one of them. A gamble effectively, except you don't even get money as a payout.

All of these tricks are designed to make you loose track of how much money you spend, or tap into the gambling addict, or people with weak self control, or people that want to play with friends, or just prey on human weakness. This IS recorded to work extremly effectivly and make so much money that the core experience is free.....Because the core experience is basically unplayable without either 25 times the normal free time required, or a continous stream of about 5-10 dollars an hour (after say the first 3 being free-ish).

How is this relevant to D&D?

Because WOTC hired basically a head honcho of such a buisness model to work on their VTT framework.

I believe that these are effective marketing strategies, but they're not new. Much of this was true of arcades back in the 1980s. You'd buy tokens rather than coins, there were randomized rewards, and a countdown to keep your life by paying more money at the end of a game. It could easily cost several dollars an hour to play your favorite arcade games.

I'll believe that modern video games implement these strategies more effectively than 1980s arcades, but I don't think the companies are doing anything different in principle. Further, small operators use the same strategies as big ones. Broadly, some of the most abusive scams that I've encountered have been from small companies or individuals rather than major corporations. Marketing entertainment and leisure is always full of tricks and schemes - whether that's breakfast cereal with randomized toy surprises, sodas, fast food, card games, or anything else.

I will likely have criticism of the OneD&D product once it comes out. But I also think it will be not terribly different from plenty of other products. Yes, they'll probably learn from some of the video game strategies - just as 4th ed D&D learned from collectible card games. It's part of a general spectrum of marketing - and small press use marketing strategies to drive purchases just as much, if not necessarily as effectively.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #302 on: September 07, 2022, 05:07:48 PM »
I believe that these are effective marketing strategies, but they're not new.

Ammonia and bleach are also not new but they act completly differently together. And your point about comparing addiction tactics as 'marketting', and comparing them to a completly different format of arcades is also noted.

At this point I assume your either malicious, or would require WOTC to come into your house and rob you at gunpiont before you said anything against them.

jhkim

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #303 on: September 08, 2022, 06:25:59 PM »
I believe that these are effective marketing strategies, but they're not new.

Ammonia and bleach are also not new but they act completly differently together. And your point about comparing addiction tactics as 'marketting', and comparing them to a completly different format of arcades is also noted.

At this point I assume your either malicious, or would require WOTC to come into your house and rob you at gunpiont before you said anything against them.

It sounds like you think WotC is doing something against me currently, and that I should be speaking out against them for what they're doing. Is that right? If so, what are they doing against me currently? Or is it just that I should be objecting to what they will do in the future as part of their OneD&D plan?

3catcircus

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #304 on: September 08, 2022, 08:24:36 PM »
I don't even think it needs to be malicious.

It's enough to say, "It's WotC; they'll manage to fuck it up somehow..."

All we have to do is look at their track record for in-house digital anything. It's what we in the government proposal business refer to as the "Past Performance" section of an RFP.

The fact is that WotC had previously brought in "experts" in the digital arena and they still fucked it up. OneD&D will be no different. All you have to do is ask yourself "why would an expert leave to come work at WotC for shit wages? If they're experts they should have offers elsewhere."

Ghostmaker

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #305 on: September 09, 2022, 08:07:01 AM »
I don't even think it needs to be malicious.

It's enough to say, "It's WotC; they'll manage to fuck it up somehow..."

All we have to do is look at their track record for in-house digital anything. It's what we in the government proposal business refer to as the "Past Performance" section of an RFP.

The fact is that WotC had previously brought in "experts" in the digital arena and they still fucked it up. OneD&D will be no different. All you have to do is ask yourself "why would an expert leave to come work at WotC for shit wages? If they're experts they should have offers elsewhere."
Ding ding ding. Give that man the prize. Even if WotC wasn't run by woke cultists with the spines of jellyfish, their track record on this sort of thing is hilariously bad.

engrgmr

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #306 on: September 24, 2022, 12:51:00 PM »
Until 'Pundit's video on One D&D, I did not see the now apparently overt politically left push in the current WOTC D&D development.  I considered it more of just corporate hive mind just following what they believe to be the safe marking path.  Now the One D&D campaign, highlighted by 'Pundit's one game to rule them all theme.  One D&D is taken right out of the modern US socialist play book.  It is the slogan used in all the US socialist municipal administrations, such as


I guess the WOTC D&D development team buys into this and wants to show that their product hip with the new order.

Anyway, now after several weeks since the One D&D announcement more diehard D&D 5e social media personalities are starting to get concerned, because they see that One D&D appears to be a strategy to take over the culture and stop all house rule modding that every DM does.  People that want rigidly enforced rules play computer RPGs that exist for decades.  They can even create their custom adventures for these, but the computer will always enforce the rules. 

The whole point of tabletop RPGs is the interactive experience and the off the rails dynamics between the DM and players at the table.

...or we can take the WOTC path
One D&D
One Ring
One Seattle
One Germany
One Russia
One Cuba
One China
One Venezuela
One World

Ruprecht

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #307 on: September 24, 2022, 12:55:01 PM »
Ding ding ding. Give that man the prize. Even if WotC wasn't run by woke cultists with the spines of jellyfish, their track record on this sort of thing is hilariously bad.
That is how Microsoft worked back in the 90s but then ended up dominating markets anyway because of their size.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing. ~Robert E. Howard

KindaMeh

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #308 on: September 24, 2022, 03:39:24 PM »
I’m still salty about WotC effectively taking down fun and free 3.5 stuff away from easy access on their website and the similar online disappearances of some of my favorite character sheet templates. Now we see the broader picture. It was all to make room for this, a product which I do not presently want and in all likelihood will never play. Heck, I’d have preferred more low quality 5e supplements with questionable messaging to this. At least those our 5e DM might inadvisably try to salvage. I dunno exactly how to articulate it in ways that other folks or the video haven’t yet, but I feel like this is a sneaky attack on DM and Player Group autonomy, homebrew, in-person socialization and connection, and ideological freedom within the hobby.

GeekyBugle

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #309 on: September 24, 2022, 04:17:58 PM »
I’m still salty about WotC effectively taking down fun and free 3.5 stuff away from easy access on their website and the similar online disappearances of some of my favorite character sheet templates. Now we see the broader picture. It was all to make room for this, a product which I do not presently want and in all likelihood will never play. Heck, I’d have preferred more low quality 5e supplements with questionable messaging to this. At least those our 5e DM might inadvisably try to salvage. I dunno exactly how to articulate it in ways that other folks or the video haven’t yet, but I feel like this is a sneaky attack on DM and Player Group autonomy, homebrew, in-person socialization and connection, and ideological freedom within the hobby.

We need some OGL OSR retroclones of some of that 3.5 stuff IMHO.

I'm working on 2.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

KindaMeh

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #310 on: September 24, 2022, 04:26:51 PM »
I’m still salty about WotC effectively taking down fun and free 3.5 stuff away from easy access on their website and the similar online disappearances of some of my favorite character sheet templates. Now we see the broader picture. It was all to make room for this, a product which I do not presently want and in all likelihood will never play. Heck, I’d have preferred more low quality 5e supplements with questionable messaging to this. At least those our 5e DM might inadvisably try to salvage. I dunno exactly how to articulate it in ways that other folks or the video haven’t yet, but I feel like this is a sneaky attack on DM and Player Group autonomy, homebrew, in-person socialization and connection, and ideological freedom within the hobby.

We need some OGL OSR retroclones of some of that 3.5 stuff IMHO.

I'm working on 2.

Behold, hope.  :)

Omega

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #311 on: September 24, 2022, 05:49:08 PM »
And lets also separate subscription from the new X as service.

A book/magazine series may be a subscription. You get each new book at a discount but once you stop subscribing you retain everything up till that point. In addition they can't really edit what you have.

Roll20/ World of Warcraft is more X as service. As you loose alot of stuff/everything when you stop subscribing, making stopping doing so more difficult. You also have to go along with any changes imposed on you.

The two are NOT enterchangable. Yet many times defenses for X as service are defended with X as subscription.

Very. I used to have a comic book subscription. When that subscription ran out I stopped getting new comics. The comics I had did not just vanish.

A subscription MMO on the other hand. I played on one from the start as a subscriber and found out the hard way one day just how much they hose you when that subscription runs out.  Stuff I'd payed for separately with cash were "tee-hee! Thats subscription only! Sucker!" One of my local players got an lifetime subscription to a MMO on launch and about a year later it closed down. I saw a number of flash games tun this as a scam. Set up game, offer bonuses or items for cash. Then a few months later. Poof. Gone.

Games as a service is one of the most mentally stunted things to think is a good thing ever.

And for those who think it cant be done. Guess again. It can. Its just no one has tried to actually implement one as a RPG.

FingerRod

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #312 on: September 24, 2022, 06:10:33 PM »
Anyway, now after several weeks since the One D&D announcement more diehard D&D 5e social media personalities are starting to get concerned, because they see that One D&D appears to be a strategy to take over the culture and stop all house rule modding that every DM does.

Do you have any references showing One D&D wants to stop all house rules?

Chris Perkins is running point on the DMG, and it would be a huge shift given his work in the 5e DMG, games he runs, interviews, and even play reports/DM notes.

Cathode Ray

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #313 on: September 25, 2022, 07:06:58 AM »
One D&D is taken right out of the modern US socialist play book.  It is the slogan used in all the US socialist municipal administrations, such as

You left out, "One Bookshelf".

3catcircus

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Re: The OneDnD Agenda
« Reply #314 on: September 26, 2022, 08:59:04 PM »
I’m still salty about WotC effectively taking down fun and free 3.5 stuff away from easy access on their website and the similar online disappearances of some of my favorite character sheet templates. Now we see the broader picture. It was all to make room for this, a product which I do not presently want and in all likelihood will never play. Heck, I’d have preferred more low quality 5e supplements with questionable messaging to this. At least those our 5e DM might inadvisably try to salvage. I dunno exactly how to articulate it in ways that other folks or the video haven’t yet, but I feel like this is a sneaky attack on DM and Player Group autonomy, homebrew, in-person socialization and connection, and ideological freedom within the hobby.

Something I learned along time ago. Download local copies of all that shit and turn it into PDFs. I have archived PDF copies of every single 3.x posting that was actual game content (free adventures, bonus lore, mechanics, etc.) They tried at some point to prevent offline access to the HTML files due to the inclusion of some type of JavaScript checks...

Actually - that "download it, STAT!" applies equally to any type of online content
« Last Edit: September 26, 2022, 09:01:12 PM by 3catcircus »