Quote from: tenbones;1001988I find this very enlightening - I'm realizing how much more liberal people are with their notions of D&D than me and we're only on page 2!!!

I strongly doubt we are representative in that respect.

Wild, half-baked idea:  It occurs to me that one way to do a single system that can work fine with either 10 or 20 class levels is to use 20 as the design default, but very carefully stagger when things are gained.  Hit points are increased only on even levels, spells only gained on odd levels, that sort of thing.  It's a way of parsing out the stuff for those that want a finer grain, but if you want to use the 10 level, coarser version, you end up in the same place.  Even groups that preferred the 20 level version might use the 10 level option for NPCs.

I'd split hit points into Body and Stamina to address a lot of the oddities of damage from missile weapons and healing "wounds" that aren't actually wounds.

Quote from: tenbones;1001985Due to the assumptions of OD&D - this is why a 10-level spread of abilities that scale that foundational question is optimum for me. If you want to go beyond 10th - sure! But like St. Gygax said, and years and years of anecdotal evidence have proven time and again - the system breaks down without some strong mechanical brakes there.

I design for 12th with a double check out to 16th to 18th levels. (Mage and Archmage). Since running S&W as my main system since 2008, the highest level PC I had in a campaign was 9th level. However taking 12th into account will cover the high level campaign that will come eventually one day. Beyond 12th I don't add any class details just improvement to the base abilities like spells, hits points and to hit bonus with 18th being the cut off as far as my interest goes.

Quote from: tenbones;1001985You can have all the quality high-level play in that 10-level range with ridonkulous epic level post-10th level play tacked on with module mechanics. Going past 15th is really unnecessary. In fact I think it's arbitrarily pursuing numbers for its own sake vs. playing a good game. 6-page stat-bloc's for Pathfinder NPC's at 17th lvl+ prove this to me.

Yet making 18th level works out for me as it accounts for the few legendary NPCs I have in the setting like Whitefire in Viridistan and Lewellyn the Blue in the City State of the Invincible Overlord.

Quote from: tenbones;1001988I find this very enlightening - I'm realizing how much more liberal people are with their notions of D&D than me and we're only on page 2!!!

Actual play is the key. Which is why I may come across as opinionated about some of the things I done. The rules in MW Fantasy Basic are a result of playing a half dozens weekly campaigns and over two dozen one off sessions since 2008.  Under those condition, I find what works and doesn't work. Of course it shaped by my initial design decision so another starting point would have produced a related but different set of rules. But the rules I have now are far more robust than what I had when I wrote the MW Supplement.

And the thing I learned that changes will occurs. Things you thought were a good idea turned out to be not, things you thought were not important turned out to be more important. And I only discovered this by playing with the same set of rule over and over again.

For example while OD&D doesn' t have much in the way of mechanics to customize characters it does have magic items. And for those players who tweak characters the acquisition of magic items is where it gets expressed. It far more important to get a handle on treasure distribution and the buying and selling of magic items than it is to argue over adding a class feature or two. And in the nuts and bolts of running a campaign the answer is not as simple just to restrict everything. That will only work for a minority of players. About the same group size as players who enjoy campaigns where you start in the middle of a blank hex grid and expected to explore.

My advice to anybody making their own D&D ruleset is to figure out what setting you want to run, make that setting interesting, and design the rules around that setting. It will be far easier to sell any rules weirdness, from the players PoV, if it feels like part of the setting you are using.

Quote from: Bren;1002033I'd split hit points into Body and Stamina to address a lot of the oddities of damage from missile weapons and healing "wounds" that aren't actually wounds.

That not every D&Dish and frankly so what? What the players need to know after the fight is how badly injured they are, whether they are unconscious, or are they dead? With being unconscious or injured they need to know how it takes to heal. The hit point pool is easy to use and understand in this regard. Doing the above without a lot of other changes gets you nothing but flavor text that you can make up on the spot.

In short stuff like this works in GURPS, Fantasy Age, or Runequest. But not so much in D&D.

I think this is the wrong use of "heartbreaker".  Any OSR game is essentially compatible with any other OSR game's adventures, supplements, etc. So there's no "heartbreak" involved. You could have all the future support you need even if the maker of the game you play doesn't release a thing.

Heartbreaker stuff are games like D&D (or some existing games) that are clearly attempts to improve it, but are mostly incompatible. Something like Arduin, the Arcanum (Atlantis from Bard Games) or Talislanta would qualify.

Quote from: estar;1002090That not every D&Dish and frankly so what?

I answered the question. You don't have to like my answer. Just like I don't have to agree with you that a single hit point pool makes sense outside of things like Robin Hood dueling Sir Guy.

QuoteIn short stuff like this works in GURPS, Fantasy Age, or Runequest. But not so much in D&D.

The separation works just fine for D&D and D&D like games. Years of play-testing with different players and GMs demonstrates that. And the separation provides a far better match to the sort of world I'd want to run than the more abstract and amorphous lack of separation.

This thread hits so close to Earthdawn it's ridiculous. If I have time tomorrow I will break out the 4E Quickstart Booklet and give Earthdawn a break-down like the others have for their bullet points.

My take? Take 5th. Fold Teiflings into Planetouched with Aasimar, send Dragonborn to landfill.

Take a page from 2nd edition and give the fighter his noble title and keep, the cleric his temple, the rogue  his thieves guild. Fold the henchmen and followers into that, so not only can the players/characters feel more connected to the world, but the can have slightly lower lvl characters that can fill in while they're higher lvl characters are doing other things.

Quote from: Bren;1002168I answered the question. You don't have to like my answer. Just like I don't have to agree with you that a single hit point pool makes sense outside of things like Robin Hood dueling Sir Guy.

Here is one implementation of Wounds of Vitality. The point of it as it states is.

QuoteThe vitality and wound points system was originally developed as a more cinematic method of handling damage than the traditional hit point system. The system allows for characters to improve the amount of punishment they can withstand as they go up in level, while still allowing for a single lucky attack to take down a character.

It goes further to say

QuoteCharacters using this system should be more wary in combat, which can turn deadly in the space of a few lucky rolls. But they can also bounce back from a fight much more quickly. For that reason, this variant is an ideal system for low-magic campaigns or games where healing is otherwise rare.

It seems it designed precisely for a Robin Hood versus Sir Guy fight.

Quote from: Bren;1002168The separation works just fine for D&D and D&D like games. Years of play-testing with different players and GMs demonstrates that. And the separation provides a far better match to the sort of world I'd want to run than the more abstract and amorphous lack of separation.

When I say something not very D&Dish one possible reason it because it entail a lot of extra work to implement properly. Wounds and Vitality is straightforward with D&D 3.X, 4e, and 5e because every creature has attributes.  So you have a constitution stat as foundation. But that means in whatever heartbreaker you are designing every creature has to have attributes. Or if you forego that still have to go through every creature and decide what their wound value is based on whatever criteria. Any traditional D&D supplement that a gamer uses has to be converted to use wounds.

It not a ton of work but it is additional work. This is opposed to doing something like adding double the damage die on a natural 20. It has a consequence for how the campaign plays out however it doesn't generate a lot of extra work when the players and referee use other D&D material 'as is'.

As a general comment, pile enough of these on to the D&D framework and the game becomes different enough to where the question becomes "why bother with using D&D in the first place?

I like the idea of any player getting to play any race they want- they just start as a 1st level and are on par with all the other 1st level characters.  Gronan once mentioned a player wanting to be a Balrog, and he let him, but started weak.

I'd have all weapons do d6 for damage- except for fighters who would progress to d8, d10, and d12 for damage as they increased with level.  Saving throws would be based off stats, level added to any bonuses or penalty- roll against save number.  

I'd have a skill list that was open to all, certain classes being better at some than others (wasn't 5th kinda like this?  Can't remember when we played).  Maybe a few that were closed, not sure there.  

Would keep ascending AC- but wouldn't want a universal mechanic for everything.  I like sub systems and mini games.

Quote from: estar;1002236When I say something not very D&Dish one possible reason it because it entail a lot of extra work to implement properly. Wounds and Vitality is straightforward with D&D 3.X, 4e, and 5e because every creature has attributes.  So you have a constitution stat as foundation. But that means in whatever heartbreaker you are designing every creature has to have attributes. Or if you forego that still have to go through every creature and decide what their wound value is based on whatever criteria. Any traditional D&D supplement that a gamer uses has to be converted to use wounds.

I think it's important to note that the game would have this as a base, not have to be converted by the player or DM during play. And that's sort of why I really enjoyed the 4E system - You still had Hit Points known and Monsters, etc. didn't generally even follow the whole Surge mechanic. They could get bloodied and they died, maybe a few allowed abilities or spells to regain Hit Points but overall they were limited. The Hit Points/Fatigue/Stamina/Whatever you call it was meant specifically to be something the PCs (and NPCs) tracked alone.  

Quote from: estar;1002236It not a ton of work but it is additional work. This is opposed to doing something like adding double the damage die on a natural 20. It has a consequence for how the campaign plays out however it doesn't generate a lot of extra work when the players and referee use other D&D material 'as is'.

As a general comment, pile enough of these on to the D&D framework and the game becomes different enough to where the question becomes "why bother with using D&D in the first place?

Considering how different 0D&D looks (presumably, I've never played it) to 5th Edition and accounting for everything in between, I feel that question has become moot.

Added complexity doesn't exist in a vacuum.  There is complexity in a sub system due to the inherent nature of the sub system.  Then there is complexity due to trying to work around the basis of the system, instead of changing it to better fit the (presumably) wider set of options you now want to support.  I think the OP is out to support a relatively wide set of options, which means there has to be some changes to the chassis to make it work in a reasonable manner.  The question is not whether that happens, but which changes and how much gives a solid bang for the buck.

Thought this thread was about making your own perfect D&D heartbreaker.  Mine has subsystems!