Greetings!

"I think it's best to separate 5e the toolbox from 5e the New Forgotten Realms Setting. Insofar as the classes and races available define what goes on in the Realms, yes, it's pretty much a mess, and it doesn't cohere internally at all. In the new Realms, a Paladin starts off with the ability to Lay on Hands and gains the ability to Divine Smite because...uh...like...whatever, I guess. He can take whatever oath he wants at 3rd level regardless of what god he has served, or no god at all, or how he has lived his life. Note that he reaches 3rd level in the time it takes to kill nine orcs. That's right, folks, a 3rd-level character in 5e is simply someone who has slain nine orcs in his life.

As a toolbox, 5e is really wonderful. There's lots of stuff in there to draw your world and campaign out of. You don't have to have Warlocks or Great Old Ones or Tabaxi or Dragonborn at all. You don't have to allow irreligious clerics or paladins. You can give specific gods that correspond to each oath or domain. It's up to you."

--Fearsomepirate

Fearsomepirate, you wrote this in another thread, and I wanted to discuss some topics about the "New Forgotten Realms Setting." Could you elaborate on these things, Fearsomepirate?

How have they screwed the campaign setting with all of these different races?

How have the different classes fucked up the setting, and caused a incoherent mess?

How has experience points been botched, and the leveling up process been circle-jerked around with the setting?

How have they fucked up the campaign setting in other ways, Fearsomepirate, and how would you fix the mess?

Everyone, feel free to chime in and add your thoughts about these topics and more, concerning the--as Fearsomepirate so eloquently puts it--"New Forgotten Realms Setting."

I admit, I'm biased in favour of the old Grey Box Forgotten Realms from back in the day, plus some of the FR region thingies they put out shortly afterwards. In my view, while in many ways technically and artistically beautiful and proficient, the "Forgotten Realms" has been so jerked around in the years since that the setting requires deep surgery by the DM to make any sense out of it now, and make the setting actually "work."

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1060259Greetings!
Fearsomepirate, you wrote this in another thread, and I wanted to discuss some topics about the "New Forgotten Realms Setting." Could you elaborate on these things, Fearsomepirate?

Sure.

QuoteHow have they screwed the campaign setting with all of these different races?

Most of them feel like they have no place. The dragonborn are the most obviously shoehorned in. I have nothing against a proud race of dragon-descended humanoids, but they don't fit in the Realms. They're fine in the Nentir Vale. With the additions in Volo's Guide, the typical 5e adventuring party is more like the Mos Eisley Cantina band than the Fellowship of the Ring or your adventuring group from Baldur's Gate.

QuoteHow have the different classes fucked up the setting, and caused a incoherent mess?

The broadest offender is that non-divine magic is principally driven by gifted people with magnetic personalities, not bookworms who spend their lives poring over dusty tomes. It doesn't seem like a big deal when you first read the rules, but it really changes the flavor of the game.

The biggest specific offender is the Warlock class. It imports a ton of lore via its class options that is at best obscuranta in the Realms setting, i.e. the Great Old One is apparently any one of the Elder Evils, which aren't exactly detailed anywhere in the PHB or adventure books. The fact that primeval lords of the Abyss and demon princes are extending their power into Faerun left and right via pacts with people who are willing to trade their souls for the power to blast things for 3x(1d10+CHA) seems like it should be a really big deal. A campaign-defining crisis, even. But it's just a thing. And of course, it's AL-legal, so paladins who sell their souls to lesser demons to get a nicely scaling ranged attack are officially part of the Realms now. This is what happens when you have lore-heavy classes with no alignment/deity/behavior restrictions.

Also nobody is religious any more, since clerics and paladins have officially become completely unbound from religious orders. What does it even mean to be a "cleric of dedication to free will?" That's apparently an order of empowered holy war-priests in Faerun now.

QuoteHow has experience points been botched, and the leveling up process been circle-jerked around with the setting?

The part of the game where you fight goblins and ogres lasts about 4 to 5 sessions now. The problem is that's the part that connects to Western myths and faerie tales that predate Columbus' discovery of the Americas. Those are the monsters everybody understand without having heard of D&D. If you play 5e RAW with experience points rather than a railroad campaign with "milestone leveling," there is very, very little time for the DM to establish what hobgoblins do in the world.

QuoteHow have they fucked up the campaign setting in other ways, Fearsomepirate, and how would you fix the mess?

Burn it. Frankly, I think the Nentir Vale in 4e was the right thing to do: wipe the slate clean, craft a new setting. I mean, that's what the Realms gray box was, wasn't it?  The good ship Greyhawk had run aground, and so the Realms basically took all the Greyhawk monsters and creatures, not to mention a few gods, and gave a new world with a new setting.

I would like to see a modern version of something like the 1e Greyhawk box. Give me a map and tools to fill it in.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1060284Burn it. Frankly, I think the Nentir Vale in 4e was the right thing to do: wipe the slate clean, craft a new setting. I mean, that's what the Realms gray box was, wasn't it?  The good ship Greyhawk had run aground, and so the Realms basically took all the Greyhawk monsters and creatures, not to mention a few gods, and gave a new world with a new setting.

   No, I believe the Realms were a response to Dragonlance having run its course, although getting rid of Greyhawk might also have been in the mix. Dragonlance pretty much stalled out as a game setting after the original module series, but people don't notice that because the novels kept going strong for years.

  But yes, the Realms were adopted as sort of the 'default home' of 2nd Edition AD&D. Greyhawk got strongarmed back into that role for 3rd, the Nentir Vale for 4th, and the Realms again for 5th. WotC has made the 'default setting' more important than before with the growth and encouragement of Organized Play.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1060284he part of the game where you fight goblins and ogres lasts about 4 to 5 sessions now. The problem is that's the part that connects to Western myths and faerie tales that predate Columbus' discovery of the Americas. Those are the monsters everybody understand without having heard of D&D. If you play 5e RAW with experience points rather than a railroad campaign with "milestone leveling," there is very, very little time for the DM to establish what hobgoblins do in the world.

Maybe you have super-competent players, because this is not really my experience. Yes PCs level to 3rd super fast, but 3rd is when they can *start* fighting CR 0.5 monsters like orcs hobgoblins lizardmen & gnolls, and not get totally slaughtered. 1st level PCs can't really even fight giant rats & kobolds unless the GM is kind.

This is about the pacing of levels with sessions. I should say that in my personal games, we've generally abandoned counting XP and instead just upped level based on rough GM estimate.

Quote from: fearsomepirateNote that he reaches 3rd level in the time it takes to kill nine orcs. That's right, folks, a 3rd-level character in 5e is simply someone who has slain nine orcs in his life.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1060284The part of the game where you fight goblins and ogres lasts about 4 to 5 sessions now. The problem is that's the part that connects to Western myths and faerie tales that predate Columbus' discovery of the Americas. Those are the monsters everybody understand without having heard of D&D. If you play 5e RAW with experience points rather than a railroad campaign with "milestone leveling," there is very, very little time for the DM to establish what hobgoblins do in the world.

Quote from: S'mon;1060330Maybe you have super-competent players, because this is not really my experience. Yes PCs level to 3rd super fast, but 3rd is when they can *start* fighting CR 0.5 monsters like orcs hobgoblins lizardmen & gnolls, and not get totally slaughtered. 1st level PCs can't really even fight giant rats & kobolds unless the GM is kind.

My experience is similar to S'mon. In my experience, it's really easy to wipe out 1st level characters with a small band of kobolds. And that's good, in my opinion. I guess that depends on how you approach things as a GM. I try to play my kobolds as cunning opponents.

I feel like in terms of Western stories and faerie tales, killing 9 orcs should be a big deal. As a parallel in fiction, in Lord of the Rings, getting Pippin to the point where he has done the equivalent of killing 9 orcs should be a big deal. I try to play out common people's reaction to a 3rd level character as "Wow! This is a badass who has killed 9 orcs."

In terms of Western stories and faerie tales, killing a handful of orcs doesn't grant you the power to summon artillery on your enemies. Shatter, which blows away orcs and hobgoblins, comes online at 3rd level, and Fireball at 5th takes care of bugbears and gnolls. I've been running one of the published campaigns, and I think it took the party about 6 or 7 sessions to get to 5th level.  They're barely beginning to cohere as a group, and they're already able to just wave away groups of classic enemies. It's too fast. The basic problem is the game is overtly intended to level you up every 2-3 sessions. This is simply too fast. I've come around to the opinion that 20 levels are too many. If you print 20 levels in the book, players expect to get through them all and are disappointed when they've planned out what they're going to be at 15th level, but are at 8th level after a year.

BTW, 5e is a lot easier at low levels if your front line starts using Dodge instead of Attack as their go-to action.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1060284The part of the game where you fight goblins and ogres lasts about 4 to 5 sessions now. The problem is that's the part that connects to Western myths and faerie tales that predate Columbus' discovery of the Americas. Those are the monsters everybody understand without having heard of D&D. If you play 5e RAW with experience points rather than a railroad campaign with "milestone leveling," there is very, very little time for the DM to establish what hobgoblins do in the world.

This isn't really accurate. Goblinoids, orcs, and ogres can be encountered at the lower levels, but they are still viable (in larger numbers) at higher levels d/t the way bounded accuracy allows them to still score hits (and to occasionally be missed by PC attacks too). Sure, they may not be exciting as main course by level 10, but they make for effective minions, which is something that was hard to do in some other editions where you "outgrew" monsters fairly quickly.

Quote from: jhkim;1060379This is about the pacing of levels with sessions. I should say that in my personal games, we've generally abandoned counting XP and instead just upped level based on rough GM estimate.




My experience is similar to S'mon. In my experience, it's really easy to wipe out 1st level characters with a small band of kobolds. And that's good, in my opinion. I guess that depends on how you approach things as a GM. I try to play my kobolds as cunning opponents.

I feel like in terms of Western stories and faerie tales, killing 9 orcs should be a big deal. As a parallel in fiction, in Lord of the Rings, getting Pippin to the point where he has done the equivalent of killing 9 orcs should be a big deal. I try to play out common people's reaction to a 3rd level character as "Wow! This is a badass who has killed 9 orcs."

Pippen was an indolent knucklehead though. A lvl 0 villager, if you will. Presumably, a lvl 1 Fighter would have actual training and some combat experience under their belt.

My players are level 7 and they're still fighting giant spiders and kuo toa. I'm just good at grinding them down and putting them in dangerous situations.

There are higher level guys every now and then though, but the rest of the world doesn't just take a break because the players are tougher now.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1060383This isn't really accurate. Goblinoids, orcs, and ogres can be encountered at the lower levels, but they are still viable (in larger numbers) at higher levels d/t the way bounded accuracy allows them to still score hits (and to occasionally be missed by PC attacks too).

Their viability is pretty overrated, since keeping them alive past a round requires ensuring the players can't hit them all with Fireball (note that party power increases nonlinearly with size here...a party of six with three casters is far more powerful than a party of 4). Either way, the fact is the phase of the game where a dozen hobgoblins were something to tread very carefully around ends much more quickly in 5e than AD&D. I don't know how you ignore the fact that you level up several times faster.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1060381In terms of Western stories and faerie tales, killing a handful of orcs doesn't grant you the power to summon artillery on your enemies. Shatter, which blows away orcs and hobgoblins, comes online at 3rd level, and Fireball at 5th takes care of bugbears and gnolls. I've been running one of the published campaigns, and I think it took the party about 6 or 7 sessions to get to 5th level.  They're barely beginning to cohere as a group, and they're already able to just wave away groups of classic enemies. It's too fast. The basic problem is the game is overtly intended to level you up every 2-3 sessions. This is simply too fast. I've come around to the opinion that 20 levels are too many. If you print 20 levels in the book, players expect to get through them all and are disappointed when they've planned out what they're going to be at 15th level, but are at 8th level after a year.

BTW, 5e is a lot easier at low levels if your front line starts using Dodge instead of Attack as their go-to action.

I don't see a lot of battles where the PCs can use Dodge and the enemy can't just ignore them.

I see PCs get to 3rd very quick (300+600=900 XP), but then it takes another 1800 just to make 4th; the 5e DMG recommends 2-3 sessions/level but after 3rd it's more like 5 sessions/level on average in my games (I have seen it take 8+), and I use full monster XP plus bonus exploration/quest XP. Highest PC after 11 months of mostly weekly play from 1st is now 9th level. I've been starting new PCs at 5th level for about the past 5-6 months or so, most PCs are level 5-7. A typical 5th level group can blow away low-hp orcs & hobgoblins, but is still challenged by lizardmen, bugbears or ogres. I recently had a powerful level 6-7 group of 6 PCs suffer a bad defeat at the hands of CR 4 mountain trolls (from Stonehell Dungeon level 5) when their poor 'sit & wait' tactics gave the trolls time to develop a flanking maneuver.

Edit: I think there were around 10-11 mountain trolls, since the PCs had alerted the lair then sat around waiting at the main door, not realising the trolls had a sally port. I'm sure this was way 'beyond deadly' in encounter building terms. If the APs use encounters built to be always winnable - with 4 PCs I believe is the standard - then I can easily see 6 PCs blowing through them.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1060381I've been running one of the published campaigns, and I think it took the party about 6 or 7 sessions to get to 5th level.  They're barely beginning to cohere as a group, and they're already able to just wave away groups of classic enemies.

I wonder if the problem is with the published adventures presenting balanced encounters designed to maximise XP for time played, and balance around ensuring PC victory. Running Stonehell Dungeon it was a big deal if the PCs used Shatter on low level enemies when there could be another fight in a minute. Also being a very noisy spell it could attract wandering monsters. Modern Adventure Paths often don't have these issues for the PCs to deal with.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1060400Their viability is pretty overrated, since keeping them alive past a round requires ensuring the players can't hit them all with Fireball (note that party power increases nonlinearly with size here...a party of six with three casters is far more powerful than a party of 4). Either way, the fact is the phase of the game where a dozen hobgoblins were something to tread very carefully around ends much more quickly in 5e than AD&D. I don't know how you ignore the fact that you level up several times faster.

It seems like your PCs are routinely using their best area effect spells every fight. How many fights are your PCs facing in between long rests? The class & play balance assumes 6-8 fights. I went to 1 week long rests since otherwise PCs will just long rest mid-session after 1-2 fights and get all their spell slots back; now they rest at end of session (or 2 sessions online play) after around 4-5 fights typically.

Edit: A party of 6+ like my Tuesday night group (& we have 9 scheduled to come tonight, eek!) is definitely a lot more powerful than a party of 3. But a party of 6 with 3 casters in 5e is likely to be squishy and vulnerable IME, 3 casters and 3 tanky types would be tough, but then you have no Rogues, Monks, Rangers et al.

Quote from: S'mon;1060410A typical 5th level group can blow away low-hp orcs & hobgoblins

This is what I've been saying. By about 5th level, a lot of your classic monsters are borderline irrelevant, and you hit 5th level about 3x to 4x as fast as AD&D. I mean, sure, get enough of them surrounding the party in the open, have more waves cued up after they're out of spells, and it's hard. But in what TSR edition hasn't this been true?

IMO the fact that WotC is now pushing milestone-based leveling is proof enough that their XP schedule is broken. I actually prefer the game from levels 1-3. It's scarier. This phase is over extremely fast in 5e, but it's the entire Basic boxed set.

I can kinda see where you're coming from, in that they compressed regular low level play with typical advancement rate and threats into just levels 3 and 4. 1 and 2 are extremely vulnerable, 5-10 feels mid level.

I have been thinking about the "100 xp to level" suggestion in a UA article, though I would not use their specific award numbers.