Quote from: Bill;564650For melee/physical skills I agree. A seperate fatigue mechanic might go well with 'at will' phisical abilities.

I would apply the same logic to casting spells. Make the spells 'at will' but when you get fatigued from casting too much your spells get much weaker.

Consuption of fancy spell components might be a way to keep certain spells from being overly useful as well.

Just a thought.

The problem with fatigue mechanics is it adds tracking and another layer of complexity. For some games this is fine. For a game like D&D, the old way works just fine for me. At some point I will sit down and make a martial arts game with fatigue and attack styles.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;564162In its pure, unmodified form, CP2020 is extremely associative.  The only time you gain improvement points in skills is when you use them, and you can only raise them by gaining IP.

For my CP2020 games i modified the rules, adding in a 'Free IP' where I could reward good roleplaying and involvement, and allowed the characters to pay for up to half the cost of raising their skills with their Free points.

However, to achieve that level of associative modeling it requires a lot of accounting and slows down the game some.  Usually I wound up collecting the character sheets at the end of the night and awarding IP based on my perceptions of the character's use of them through the session.

Oh yeah, hadn't thought of CP. Hell, haven't played it in over a decade, even though I still have both my 2013 and 2020 box sets.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;564384This is an incredibly silly defense when you're defending a system/setting wherein you actually can go ask the god, and he won't know. (Maybe some version of Deities & Demigods or Powers & Pantheons has actually explained why Moradin can only give you X spells based on your level per day, but I have not read it.)


Immersion is relative.

Why would you assume the "god" (in other words, the DM) not know. I am perfectly capable of coming up with "reasons" for magical things working the way they do. How about "YOU ARE NOT MEANT TO UNDERSTAND" or "I HAVE DECREED THIS POWER IS TOO STRONG FOR MORTALS TO CHANNEL TOO OFTEN" or "BECAUSE I SAID SO" (using caps as my "god" voice ). It's easy to explain magic in terms of the game world. It's not so easy when the shit really exists in the real world, but for some inexplicable reason doesn't work the same way.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;564396Actually, this is explained in AD&D.  In fact, it's mentioned that if the cleric isn't adhering to his faith, the god may add additional limitations to the # and level of spells the cleric is allowed.

But I wouldn't expect you to actually know this.  And I fully expect you to backtrack because you have zero integrity.  How do I know this?  Because everyone sees what you post on SA and what you have to say about this site and the members of this site, and you expect to come here and then try to act like you want an honest conversation?

"Hey guys!  I know you totally saw me calling you all douchbags and idiots, but wanna talk?"

:huhsign:

I have no idea who you are in real life, or what challenges you face, but I'm starting to think that something is honestly broken in your head.  People without issues don't spend so much time on the internet with the sole purpose of propagating cross-board flame wars like you do.

Now go ahead and quote me on SA like I expect, or have one of your pals do it.  That will be a shocker.

Gah, should have read this first before responding to HJ. I need to stop just automatically giving folks the benefit of the doubt.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;564399You can't just go about roundhouse kicking every strike in a fight.  The opening needed for a truly devastating blow only appears every so often.

You can contrive any reason you want to.  It doesn't really matter.  Non-magic powers on a timer aren't really new, and magic powers on the timers that they have don't make any sense for non-contrived reason because they were only added for 'disassociated' or 'gamist' reasons in the first place.

I personally don't really care because I don't think those things are necessarily bad, and I think that D&D is a good game probably because of being a 'game' foremost rather than a 'immersive roleplaying experience' or something equally pretentious.  I think that Shadowrun as an example could probably be a better game if it was really shooting for being a game first rather than a cheesy Sci-Fantasy elfpunk simulator.

In a world where a Dragon with a silly name is President and everyone is an elf with a katana that casts magic I'm not overly concerned with the level of detail put into the hacking mechanics or the realistic lethality of gunplay.

D&D clearly has never been concerned with any of that, and for me adding Roundhouse Kick 1/Day to the Figther doesn't really break my immersion any more than Smite Evil 3/Day did in the past.

And this is really the entire crux of it and the most important part. It's not that the "disassociated" mechanics are inherently bad. It's just that certain implementations and frequencies of their use can end up making a game not to the taste of some folks (like me), but perfectly fine and perhaps even great to others. I do not entirely hate the Essentials flavor of 4e, and still own the entire Essentials line as well as my original 4e PHB. I would even be willing to play the Essentials variety if my GM wanted to. There are many games I would prefer, however.

Quote from: silva;564426I agree that daily powers are not really different from spells-per-day in regard to dissociation. And also agree that all editions of D&D are really on the dissociated side overall ( even if 4E is the worst of the bunch). But its not a bad thing really. Because if D&D tried to get associated it would probably end up like Shadowrun. (I don't dislike Shadowrun at all, but I think its system would support its setting better if it was more on the dissociated side, like D&D).

Did it make any sense? I felt I went on circles here. XD

Despite my love for SR, I hinted at the same thing in my first post, and I agree with you completely.

Quote from: Psychman;564444When I saw the original post the game that came to mind, apart form RuneQuest, of course, was Earthdawn.  In Earthdawn the character levels, and abilities all exist in the game setting and are measurable in game as they get tested to qualify a character to train into the next level.

Beat that for associated game systems!

Oh yeah, good answer. I have never been a really big ED fan, but I still think the way they approached magic items is one of the coolest I've ever seen.

Quote from: Benoist;564455I can't but have a smile come to my face when a guy like you, silva, who posts about storygame this, narrative that, and so on, not seeing the difference between them and trad RPGs, then comes up and says "hey, there's no difference in terms of association between daily spells and daily powers for everyone!"

Kind of falls flat on my ears, in a kind of "well, duh, of course you would say that" sort of way, if you see what I mean.

I think silva was, in this case, at least mostly correct in that there really is little difference, strictly in terms of disassociation, between daily spells and daily powers. They are both done mostly for game concerns. However, the reason why I think we dislike one more than the other is that one is something that does not exist in the real world, so there is nothing to compare it to and it can be explained any way we want, whereas the other does exist in the real world and so when it does not work the way we expect it rings false to us. Some of us don't like that, but others are not going to be nearly as bothered by it. It's odd how I can dislike this in TTRPGs, but in CRPGs and MMOs I don't mind at all, but there it is.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;564643I find it much easier to accept that spells either enervate you in this way or follow some kind of physics that requires something ike sleep in order to reuse. Its mystical, its magical, etc. It is isn't much of a problem to believe these sorts of explanations with magic because its made up. But roundhouse kicks are real. I know from experience that they may take more energy than a punch, but you should certainly be able to attempt them multiple times in a single combat encounter (and certainly a day)---thai boxers are trained to throw ten rapid fire round house kicks with each leg for example as standard part of pad work and sparing. I just don't think x/day or x/encounter are very good ways to represent this sort of thing. For me it is highly disruptive.

Yeah when we train we throw 10 Round house kicks with power into a pad on each count and we do a lot of counts...

Have to say that that being old after about 200 kicks I do start to find it hard to do anything more than tap the pad.
So maybe you limit Roundhouse kicks to 200 per encounter .....

Quote from: jibbajibba;564667Yeah when we train we throw 10 Round house kicks with power into a pad on each count and we do a lot of counts...

Have to say that that being old after about 200 kicks I do start to find it hard to do anything more than tap the pad.
So maybe you limit Roundhouse kicks to 200 per encounter .....

One could say that the 200 roundhouse kicks are routine mellee, and you sometimes get an oppertunity to launch an 'Uber Awesome Kick'

But I still don't like encounter or daily melle attacks. I would prefer that you only get to use the uber attack on a round you roll a natural 19-20 on initiative, or something tlike that.

Quote from: Bill;564671One could say that the 200 roundhouse kicks are routine mellee, and you sometimes get an oppertunity to launch an 'Uber Awesome Kick'

But I still don't like encounter or daily melle attacks. I would prefer that you only get to use the uber attack on a round you roll a natural 19-20 on initiative, or something tlike that.

Well in a real fight if you ever land a real roundhouse at full power to a head or knee its all over. Mostly you throw kicks to grind an opponent down and keep initiative you don't really expect to land one.
Punches are similar. You expect them to be blocked.
Elbows are different you have much more control with an elbow and you only throw an elbow when you think it will connect, when you have opened an opponent up with punches and kicks.

There are no "uber awesome kicks" there are just regular kicks that actually connect.

Quote from: jibbajibba;564685Well in a real fight if you ever land a real roundhouse at full power to a head or knee its all over. Mostly you throw kicks to grind an opponent down and keep initiative you don't really expect to land one.
Punches are similar. You expect them to be blocked.
Elbows are different you have much more control with an elbow and you only throw an elbow when you think it will connect, when you have opened an opponent up with punches and kicks.

There are no "uber awesome kicks" there are just regular kicks that actually connect.

There are different power levels in any strike. Every punch I throw isn't a power punch (same with kicks) and I pick carefully when I am going to unload. For game purposes doing so on a crit seems fair to me (since that is kind of what crits do already).

I have done muay thai for years as well but I think any attempt to turn real experience like that into direct mechanics is tricky. Not sure its worth being overly pedantic about (not that you are being pedantic jibba). I don't know what bill has in mind for uber awesome kick but spinning back kick and Spinning heel kick leap to mind as candidates. A full force round kick to the head can easily knock someone out (though I have taken a full force thai round to the head and not been knocked out). A spinning back kick at the right moment as a counter can get a lot of additional force.

That's the problems RPGs will always have.  Real melee fights are fast, furious, and a lot of times chaotic.  There is no way to really do that with an RPG.  Would you want to play an RPG where 95% of your attacks missed or were blocked, and you had to roll over a hundred times for combat that might last just a few minutes?

Probably not.  That's why I don't think it's all that valuable of an exercise to try to really look at it from a micro level.  There's always going to be associative and dissociative mechanics involved.  It really just comes down to personal preference.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;564696That's the problems RPGs will always have.  Real melee fights are fast, furious, and a lot of times chaotic.  There is no way to really do that with an RPG.  Would you want to play an RPG where 95% of your attacks missed or were blocked, and you had to roll over a hundred times for combat that might last just a few minutes?

Probably not.  That's why I don't think it's all that valuable of an exercise to try to really look at it from a micro level.  There's always going to be associative and dissociative mechanics involved.  It really just comes down to personal preference.

I agree. The micro level may be good for a skirmish game or a martial arts rpg. For me its about not having the glaring problems things like hs and daily or encounter martial powers.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;564697I agree. The micro level may be good for a skirmish game or a martial arts rpg. For me its about not having the glaring problems things like hs and daily or encounter martial powers.

I agree.  IMO, if you're going to give someone a mundane power and want to put limitations and restrictions on it, at least make them somewhat logical.